It is understood that muriatic acid can dissolve and etch a plaster surface. Therefore, why, after a plastering finisher works hard to achieve a smooth, hard, brand-new, hand-crafted, quartz pool-finish, would anyone immediately perform an “acid wash or acid bath” on that pool and that plaster? Yes, doing so can increase the exposure of the quartz color; but isn’t that removing some plaster material and shortening the life of the plaster and leading to future problems?

Although acid washing of older plaster pools can be helpful to remove stains and scale, an acid process, unfortunately, will make the surface more porous, rough, and prone to future streaking, blotchiness, and staining over time.

If a new plaster surface begins to show blotchiness, streaking, or dirty brown stains a few months after completion, the acid wash or acid bath treatment that was performed when the pool was new may be the cause of those discoloration problems.

As is known, new plaster/quartz pools can be more easily damaged by acid than one that is a few months old. That is why the NPC recommends the Traditional Start-up program in order to prevent acidic and aggressive water from damaging a new finish.

Fortunately, there are better methods that will achieve exposure of the quartz color and retain a smooth and durable surface without damaging the pool finish.

Step 1: During the plastering process, properly time the hard troweling process to remove the weak, watery cement “cream” (known as laitance) that develops on a cement/plaster surface. The cement cream that accumulates on the hand-trowel while hard troweling should be discarded. Do not leave a thin layer of cream on the surface while troweling, which not only prevents the color of the quartz from showing, but creates a weakened surface that will break down, deteriorate, and likely become unsightly over time.

It is commonly believed that as plaster hardens and “cures,” it will naturally release a cement component known as calcium hydroxide, which then results in the common “plaster dust” forming throughout the pool. However, that is not necessarily true, and can be prevented.

Calcium hydroxide can be prevented from leaving the plaster surface in the first place, and instead, be chemically converted into calcium carbonate (a much harder material) within the plaster matrix. When this is achieved; the surface is harder and smoother, and no plaster dust develops to foul the surface.

Step 2: Preventing calcium hydroxide from leaving a plaster surface can be achieved by the following. Create a “thick” plaster mix (with a low water/cement ratio), do not add calcium chloride, and do not add water to the plaster surface and trowel it into the surface. Delay the start of filling of the pool for at least 6 to 8 hours after completing the finishing and plastering process. (If the weather is hot and dry; tent the pool!) Fill the pool with +0.5 LSI water. (The Bicarb Start-up recommended by onBalance will accomplish that).

Step 3: A pool cleaner can be used to continually polish the plaster surface over time to maximize the quartz or pebble color.

If the above recommendations are followed, there will be no need to perform an acid wash or an acid bath (also known as Acid Start-up or Zero Alkalinity Process) after the pool has been filled in order to eliminate plaster dust problems and expose the quartz color.

The benefit of following the above recommendations is a pool finish that is smooth, dense, durable, and stain resistant. The color of quartz will be vivid, consistent, and long-lasting, and that is what will make a pool owner willing to pay a premium for a special quartz finish.

The picture below of a quartz pool shows the color of the blue quartz pool finish. That pool finish (pictured) is ten years old, had no CC added to the original plaster mix, no wet/water troweling was allowed, had a 12 hour delay water filling start, and was started up (filled) with the Bicarb Start-up chemical process. An acid wash or acid bath treatment has never been performed on this quartz pool.

First off, thank you to everyone for keeping this wonderful resource up and running. I really wish I had found this site sooner! But now that I'm here, I thought I'd throw up my build to see what everyone thinks about it. It's not a big pool, just enough to cool off in this Texas heat.

Pool Description:

• 11'8" x 28'6" Gunite SWG pool, 3.5' to 5.5' depth, ~8500 gallons
• 6' x 10'5" tanning ledge
• 7' x 7' elevated spa with reverse negative edge spillway
• Bubblers, waterfalls, elevated rear wall
• PebbleSheen Blue Surf
• Glass Tile waterline
• Travertine Coping
• 500s.f. of concrete deck with spray finish

Equipment(all Hayward):

• Pump - Tristar VS 950 2.7HP
• Filter - W3C5030, 525s.f.
• Heater - W3H400FDN, 400k BTU
• Control - OmniPL
• SWG - TCELL940
• Cleaner - Polaris Alpha IQ+
• Anything major I'm missing here?

Timeline so far:
May, 2021 - "Honey, I want a pool"
July 2021 - Moved into new house
Early Dec - Pool builder selected
Dec 14th - Design finalized
Jan 3rd - Design finalized for real
Jan 20th - HOA approval
Jan 27th - Big dig
Jan 28th - Steel
Jan 31st - Short stub plumbing
Feb 1st - Gunite
Feb 2nd - Plumbing started
Feb 3rd - Change to SWG, thanks TFP
Feb 4th - Equipment delivered
Feb 7th - Plumbing
Feb 11th - Electrical
Feb 12th - Tile/coping
Feb 18th - Deck formwork, drainage
Feb 25th - Deck concrete
Mar 5th - Plaster
Mar 7th - Acid wash and fill with water
Mar 12th - Spray deck texture and paint
Mar 13th - First beer by the pool
Mar 23rd - Call gas company to upgrade meter
Apr 2nd - First official swim
Apr 9th - Yard drainage installed
Apr 15th - Salt added
Apr 20th - Leak confirmed
May 4th - Gas hookup
June 1-4th - Leak repair

Rendering is before we extended the tanning ledge and redesigned the back wall

I'm nearing the final bend on my journey to a SWCG pool and have a balanced pool being maintained daily with liquid chlorine.

With CYA 45 I'm bringing FC to around 5 and topping it back up to 5 when it gets down to 3 or so. When I switch to SWG I'm planning to run CYA 70 and FC with a hard minimum of 3 (SWG will be a PL45+ 45g/gr, double capacity).

My pool gets little use from people other than myself and CC has been 0.0 at at most 0.1.

The water has been great, no "chlorine smell". Woohoo!

Not particularly "silky feeling", but to be honest if I don't shower afterwards I do find my skin feeling slightly dry and slightly dry eyes. You might say "Well, you should shower afterwards". If that's a part of chlorinated life™ I guess so be it. But I think part of the TFP pitch is that there is going to be less chlorine in the water than drinking water and you wouldn't shower after a shower, right? Maybe once I switch to SWG and can wind the FC down a bit this will get better. And install an outdoor shower. I'm pragmatic.

Pool Math tells me I will need 263kg of salt to get from 500 to 3000, so I'm about to order 11 bags of no-additive pool salt (in particular no yellow prussiate of soda!). Before I push the button on that purchase.... should I consider mag salt instead (ie: the usual Magnapool mix - regular salt, mag salt, potassium)?

Other threads asking the question "Should I use mag salt" have had the question returned "What are you hoping to achieve"? It would be:

1. "Nicer" feeling water (the terms "silkier" and "softer" get thrown around, and MagnaPool is sending me a "bath-sized sample" so I guess I will be able to make a subjective assessment of this)
2. Better feeling skin out of the water if you don't shower (I don't know if that's a thing)
3. Less salty taste than equivalent 3000ppm salt water (I don't know if that's a thing, and I have also heard mag-salt water tastes bitter which would be arguably worse than "almost-salty" tasting 3000ppm water)

My question is really - what causes this much advertised and hyped "soft water feel"? Is it just the potassium in which case can you just add potassium and use regular salt?

The downsides seem to be you have to do a bit more fiddling on your CH test or need an alternative CH test, and more expensive bags of salt but for a super nice feel that would seem a worthwhile value proposition to me.

I am leaning towards sticking to the tried and true TFP path of regular salt especially after all my dramas, but happy to spend a little more for this magical "silky" and "soft" experience I'm hearing about (and apparently going to experience myself with their "bath-sized sample" sachet....).

If you need some brainless time to chill out, we have an Eagle Nest near us. Same pair has been coming for years and the utility company put up new pole so they moved nest then restored a nest box and the pair came back last year. They just came back last couple of days and they are amazing.

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Pool renovation continues...
The Wet Edge crew just left! The Signature Matrix Tahoe bags on the truck were black, gold and white. They also brought out two glass bead blends I asked to look at, Sea Mist and Sapphire Blend. The colors in the Sapphire Blend were extraordinary and went so nicely with the glass tile I have on the raised planter. The Sea Mist glass was just light blue and looked very different in pictures. I'm so glad I got to see it in person before deciding. I chose the glass beads instead of abalone shell. I think the abalone is gorgeous but was afraid of some of the issues others have had with it. The glass beads went into the mix and then they also hand casted more over the sunshelf and bottom of the pool. Can't wait to see the water color after chemicals are in and adjusted! Tomorrow acid wash and fill

Hi everyone I wanna keep this short. recently I've been rebalancing the water of my neglected pool. It is now officially SWG and I have kept logs. I struggled with a TA of 410. (Tested 3 times) and CH of 600. I brought those down quite a bit.

Today was a struggle trying to use the whole...lower pH and aerate method to lower TA to range. It wouldnt budge despite me adding a BUTTLOAD of aeration using a pressure washer. pH hardly climbed either. Decided to bring FC from 0 instead and let TA lower naturally over time hopefully...

Please check my logs and inform me on TA and pH balance..and when it comes to liquid chlorine. Hopefully adding liquid chlorine doesnt cancel out the low pH without lowering TA? I believe aeration AND low ph is key to lowering TA...but if one has to increase FC with liquid chlorine...this would kind of negate the low pH side of things?

Frustrating...either way I tried my best...logs in my signature

With very little effort, it looks like the pool is filled with gin (once the trees stop dropping leaves)

But the water is 53 degrees.

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following:

1. More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI)
2. Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)
3. Determination of pH and Alkalinity changes when adding chemicals to the pool
4. Various reaction rates including chlorine breakdown by UV

Disinfecting Chlorine (HOCl) vs. Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)

The most important finding was how little disinfecting chlorine (HOCl) is left after chlorine combines with Cyanuric Acid (CYA) to get "stored" as chlorinated cyanurates (aka cloramides). The chart at the following link shows this relationship. (I recently discovered that all forms of chlorine are measured as ppm equivalents of chlorine gas, so all charts, graphs and the spreadsheet have now been updated to reflect this.)



Note that the red in the linked chart above represents a cutoff of 0.011 ppm HOCl which roughly corresponds to the 650 mV ORP level that the U.S. and WHO set as the minimum required for disinfection. The green color is a guess at 0.05 ppm HOCl of the minimum level of chlorine needed to prevent algae. The actual number may be quite different, from 0.02 or less to 0.1 or more, but based on Ben's "Best Guess CYA Chart" which is based on real-world experience, I suspect the actual number will be somewhere in this range. So, red means bacterial growth while green means possible algae growth. Blue is the safe area.

The following shows this same data in graphical form with lines showing the same two (probably correct) "bacteria" and (totally a guess) "algae" levels.



The following is an approximate formula you can use so long as your CYA ppm is at least 5 times your FC (the formula really falls apart terribly below a ratio of CYA/FC of 3).

(HOCl as ppm Cl2) = (FC as ppm Cl2) / ( 2.7*(ppm CYA) - 4.9*(FC as ppm Cl2) + 5 )

and if you are interested in the FC for a given HOCl (to construct the equivalent of Ben's table, for example), you can use the following which just solves for ppm FC from the above.

(FC as ppm Cl2) = ( 2.7*(ppm CYA) + 5 ) / ( 4.9 + 1/(ppm HOCl) )

The constants in the above formulas are for a pH of 7.5 (which is the only parameter that significantly affects these constants). With the spreadsheet I can easily calculate the constants for other pH, but remember that the above formulas are approximate. For example, with FC of 3 and CYA of 15 the formula gives HOCl as 0.098 when the correct answer is 0.095. That's not terrible (about an 3% error). However, with FC of 5 and CYA of 15 the formula gives HOCl as 0.239 while the correct answer is 0.199 (about an 20% error) which isn't as good.

A rough rule of thumb that applies at a pH of 7.5 is that the effective chlorine level is reduced by a factor about equal to the ppm of the CYA. So, a CYA of 30 ppm reduces the disinfecting chlorine (HOCl) level to about 1/30th of what it would be with no CYA.

The inverse of the above chart may be seen at this link:



The chart columns from 0.02 to 0.1 ppm HOCl roughly correspond to "Ben's Best Guess CYA Chart". Ben's chart converted to show HOCl may be found here where you can see that the rough Min FC corresponds to 0.03 ppm, the rough Max FC corresponds to 0.07 ppm (implying an ideal target of 0.05 ppm) and the shock table is not consistent, but probably implies a minimum of 0.3 ppm, at least for green algae. User experience indicates that hard-to-kill yellow or mustard algae (and maybe black algae) may need 1.0 ppm HOCl for shock. User experience with black algae indicates that keeping active black algae from growing requires around 0.07 ppm HOCl.

A comparison of the "traditional" HOCl/OCl^- graph with the same graph in the presence of CYA may be found at this post. This also shows how CYA is a "chlorine (specifically HOCl) buffer" that makes HOCl concentration about half as sensitive to changes in pH.

The original source for the equilibrium constants was done in 1973 (and published in 1974) where the recommended maximum CYA level was 25 ppm:

J. O'Brien, J. Morris and J. Butler, “Equilibria in Aqueous Solutions of Chlorinated Isocyanurateâ€, Chapter 14 in A. Rubin, ed., Chemistry of Water Supply, Treatment and Distribution, 1973 Symposium, (published 1974), Ann Arbor Science, Ann Arbor, MI, pp. 333-358.

[EDIT] A searchable PDF of this paper may be found on a link on this web page. [END-EDIT]

A Little CYA Goes A Long Way

NOTE: The mechanism of protection of chlorine from sunlight by CYA is currently under review in this post. Higher CYA levels may protect even proportionately higher levels of chlorine more, especially in deeper pools.

The following is a graph showing that a large amount of the benefit of CYA protection of chlorine from UV (sunlight) is already there at around 20 ppm. This data is approximate, not only because it is dependent on the amount of sun exposure, but because the rate constants themselves change with FC level (because there is a mix of two different rates of destruction -- one from HOCl and the other from the chlorinated cyanurates which are more stable, but still breakdown from sunlight). The limiting half-life for HOCl/OCl- is 35 minutes which is consistent with pool studies, but some experimental studies give 11.6 minutes. The limiting half-life of the chlorinated cyanurates is 8.4 hours though some other data shows it could be 6 hours.



The following graph combines the two concepts of needing more chlorine at higher CYA vs. the greater protection of chlorine by CYA. The graph shows the total chlorine (FC) loss rate in ppm/hour vs. CYA at different HOCl levels. Remember that this rate of loss will slow down as chlorine gets used up. Nevertheless, [EDIT] while in theory [END-EDIT] the absolute loss of chlorine is greater at higher CYA levels (keeping HOCl constant) and is the downside to a "high CYA & high Chlorine" approach, [EDIT] in practice there is some sort of CYA shielding effect such that higher FC and CYA levels at the same FC/CYA ratio lose less absolute amounts of chlorine (see this post later in this thread and see Mark's experiments in this post and this post [END-EDIT]. However, the primary reason to have higher CYA and Chlorine is to have a sufficient buffer of chlorine to prevent it from dropping to dangerous levels. There is obviously a tradeoff here. Though using no CYA results in the least amount of chlorine loss, the fact is that you simply can't maintain a pool with only 0.05 ppm chlorine everywhere in it -- hence a minimum level is needed as a buffer.



Salt Water chlorine Generation (SWG) pools seem to require a higher level of CYA, about 70-80 ppm, to operate efficiently. The theory is that the CYA is slow to "store" the chlorine as it is being generated so without enough CYA there is a build-up of chlorine that degrades the performance of the salt cell. I would prefer that the SWG manufacturers offer a larger lower-power (per length) cell that would work efficiently at lower CYA concentrations.

pH Rising

If you find that your pH wants to keep rising, this may be due to your pool outgassing CO2 to the air. The rate of outgassing increases with lower pH, higher alkalinity, and aeration of water (splashing, water fountains or slides, high wind, jets pointed up, etc.). The aeration of pool water is a physical process that will vary greatly from pool to pool, but the following chart shows the relative outgassing rate as a function of pH and Total Alkalinity. It is possible that the hydrogen gas bubble production from SWG systems contributes to significant aeration and is a source of rising pH in such SWG pools. The rate is actually a function of Carbonate Alkalinity so this chart is for a CYA of 30, but the variation with different amounts of CYA is not large. Note that there is a large variation with pH (the Y-axis is logarithmic). I have drawn a somewhat arbitrary "Limit" line at a relative rate of 15 that I have found is roughly the tolerance limit where many people start complaining about rising pH, but again aeration is a factor I cannot predict.

CO2 Chart



Spreadsheet For Detailed Calculations

The link to the spreadsheet (in a ZIP file) that calculates all of the above data is PoolEquations.zip and was last updated 14-Mar-2009. It also does some of the things that BleachCalc does, but is not for novice users.

Also see Equations for Chlorine Chemistry.

Also see Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) vs. HOCl

(I will continue to edit this post to add more detail and discussion.)[/URL]

Hey y’all!!
I spent so many hours here during my first build. I learned everything from this site. We moved and had to leave our pool . We moved to the middle of nowhere (our hometown where we met in Kindergarten, but that’s a story for another time).

Trying to get builders to come here is crazy. We’ve been working on this for a year now and FINALLY found someone. It was pure luck as they had declined to bid my pool because I’m 60 miles from them. I hit it off with the builder’s wife and asked if she could give me recommendations. As we were chatting, she explained that they might be doing 6 pools and my one pool splits the crews too much because of distance. I get it. Then she mentioned they take a break between January and April because it’s so slow and only take on 1-2 pools during that time. I half jokingly said you need to give one of your clients the boot right now and take me, she laughed and said financing is tough right now, even if we could, there’s not time. I told her we were using savings - still nothing, wouldn’t quote me. She called me a couple days later and one of their clients financing fell through. She said if you can do it/finish before April when we get busy, we will do a quote. That was last week.

Tuesday they came out and gave us a quote, it was the best we’ve gotten this entire time. I loved their designs. We told them we wanted to think on it a couple days. Thursday we called and found out the dig date would be the following Wednesday (Today). that’s so fast!! They drove over and laid it all out last night, we made some changes on the fly and today we have a huge hole in the ground!!

We are scheduled for gunite Monday, but they are trying to push it to this Saturday because of rain chances. I’m shocked at how fast this is happening!!

Sooooooo I haven’t planned like last time. Which freaks me out. We are going to go salt (as soon as the salt cells are available) AND I WAS A TFP CHLORINE GIRL I haven’t picked out a color (Stonescapes) we aren’t even sure on water features and such yet.

I’m SO behind!!
I’ll shrink some pics and post tomorrow.

USPS is delivering one shipment of 4 COVID tests per residential address. Enter your name, address and email at https://special.usps.com/testkits to request a shipment.

This is a work in progress…I will be updating this first post with some of my latest progress. Normally, I post projects after I have completed 90% of it. This is not the case with this automation project. This thread will be kind of like a pool-build thread, with updates when I get the time: concerns, successes, and failures.

What I am hoping is that I get some additional ideas from folks on these boards about enhancements, changes, possibilities. The great thing about this project is: as long as it holds my interest…it will never be done. I can envision making enhancements and changes for a long time into the future. That can be both a “good” and a “bad” thing.

Major Posts Below:
1) Background
2) Pump Control
3) Scheduling
4) User Interface Part 1
5) User Interface Part 2
6) Sensor Inputs and Control Outputs Plan
7) Sensor Read Code
8) Pool Controller Board
9) Why So Many Pressure Sensors?
10) Stenner Pump Hardware Control
11) Stenner Pump Software
12) Valve Control Relays
13) Milone eTape Update (NEW 7/25/2020)

Seems like we have a lot of court cases flying around of late, here's another.

Since moving into my house, I spent a lot of time in my attic running all sorts of wiring. Ethernet, EasyTouch/ScreenLogic control wires, video wiring, audio wiring, door bell wiring, Romex, you name it. All the while I thought the blown-in attic insulation was a little thin, but it wasn't until one of my last runs, a Cat 6 ethernet cable for a cam on the far side of my home, that I realized how bad the insulation was. Above the room I had always had trouble keeping warm/cool enough, I was staring at the ceiling's sheetrock. The insulation was completely missing. I realized then that the entire attic's insulation was never installed correctly. It started out thick enough at the end nearest the access hatch, but gradually sloped to completely missing at the other end of the house.

The next day I contacted the original builder about the missing insulation and was told my concern would get forwarded to the responsible party.

Well, about seven months later, after multiple attempts to contact and negotiate with the contractor, through phone, email, certified letters and ultimately Small Claims Court, I received the judgement from the local court. Judgement for the plaintiff! Three weeks after that, just a couple weeks ago, I received payment in full from the defendant. Won and done!

Here's the deets.

My discovery occurred just a few months before 10 years from the date of completion of the house. I figured that would make it a long shot, and in fact the builder's position had been had I come to them a few years after the house was built, they would have fixed it. But according to them, anything could have happened in 10 years to the insulation, so they didn't feel responsible, and refused the fix. It's still a mystery how they could have explained what might have happened to 50% of a home's insulation, but that was their argument. I didn't agree. To complicate matters even more, I was not the original owner, so I had to prove that (1) nothing happened to the insulation on my watch, and (2) nothing happened to it while the previous owners lived their and (3) that it had been installed incorrectly.

First, I found out (through Google research), that in spite of the long-ago-expired one year warranty offered the original owners, the contractor is liable for defects in construction for more years than that. State law. It gets tricky, because there are different statutes of limitation. If the defect is obvious, the builder is responsible for the fix for only a few years. But if the defect could not reasonably be seen, then the statute of limitation is 10 years!! That meant I had a shot, but I was cutting it close. Because of COVID and the limited number of weeks I had before the 10-year deadline, I decided to forgo the CA Contractors Board complaint mechanism (which is how I won a previous case), and go straight to court. I had to file my case before the 10-year deadline. I threatened the contractor with both (complaint and lawsuit), to no avail. So I filed my case, in time.

I also had to accomplish many other things before the deadline. Prior to the lawsuit filing, I followed my own advice that I've given here many times. I sent certified letters to the Contractor, to alert him to the problem, what I wanted done, and how long he had to do it. He ignored several of those letters. They each included the estimate I had to get from a licensed insulation contractor for the cost of the fix. So that covered the "expert witness" aspect I needed. Once a very reasonable amount of time elapsed without the original builder performing, I had the insulation fixed by the contractor that gave me the bid. Then it was just a matter of waiting for my court date, which took forever. But in the meantime I collected evidence: pictures, documents, diagrams and letters. Pages and pages of evidence. Two of the most damning pieces: a letter from the previous owners stating nothing happened to the insulation during their ownership, and a picture and statement from my neighbor about his attic's insulation, which was also partly missing. Dun, dun, duuunnn. Clearly the original subcontractor had a bad day. I had evidence that the same guy had done both our attics on the same day! There was no logical explanation for the missing insulation other than it was never there to begin with.

So I wasn't worried about proof, I was more worried about the loopholes the defendant might find to snake out of the case. And this is where what I learned during my previous suit came back to help me. And why my mantra: "get everything in writing" paid off again. Contractors are not too bright in matters of the law. They're supposed to know and follow state contractor laws, but they're generally not very good at either! The letters the builder sent me (in both my suits) provided much of the evidence I needed. In this case, the builder's letters established the date of completion (something I needed to prove for the 10 year statute of limitations to be valid), and the letters identified him as the responsible party, which I probably couldn't have done on my own. He also hung himself in court, because he answered several direct questions from the judge that made my case, which he could have just answered otherwise had he been a little smarter, or less honest.

The take-away: you might be intimidated to get involved in a court case because of what you don't know about the law, but it's virtually a guarantee that a typical contractor will know even less!

Some other interesting tidbits: the case was tried virtually, on a Zoom meeting. That was weird. Especially when I lost my internet connection, not once but twice during my hearing! But the court was sympathetic to technical glitches, and we would start again from whatever was missed. Also weird was having to submit all my evidence beforehand, to not only the judge, but also to the defendant!! Not typically done like that in Small Claims, but that is the new order of things during a pandemic. I really didn't want to give the defendant all my evidence ahead of time, so this was my work-around: I prepared two packets, one for the court, another for the defendant. Same evidence, but the court's version contained notes in the margins of my documents that explained each exhibit, my entire case in essence. So the defendant could not prepare arguments against my logic ahead of time, but could not complain that he didn't receive all the exhibits. And it was a good thing I did it that way. Turns out, the court cannot view a PDF version of the evidence on a computer, they have to print everything out. So the judge had a 1" thick stack of papers after printing out my mountain of evidence. So much, that she couldn't sort it all out in the hearing, there were too many pages for her to find anything I was referring to, so she stated almost immediately that she would hear testimony and review the evidence afterwards, and then render her verdict later, by mail. I didn't have enough time to go through everything, so I suspect my case was won by her review of my footnotes, which she would have found later because I made them very obvious.

The builder was completely unprepared, even after getting my evidence. I delivered it to him at the absolute last minute allowed, as I didn't want to give him more time than I had to to come up with more lies about his role in all this. He did poorly in front of the judge, and even perjured himself a couple times. I got the impression the judge could tell he was lying. At one point I flat out told her he was lying! His biggest mistake was when she asked him point blank: if proof was able to show that the insulation was indeed missing since the house was built, should he be responsible for fixing it. To which he replied "Yes." Dope. That's when he should have lied!! I knew at that point my case was won. He later backtracked and lied a few more times, but by then it was too late. More to the point, as I mentioned, these guys are not too bright when it comes to the law, they're not any less intimidated in court then you or I might be!

I had to sweat it out a few weeks before the judgement showed up in the mail, and a few more weeks after that before the check showed up. But I ended up getting both. I had intended to follow up with a formal complaint to the Contractor's Board, because while they are mostly powerless to do much directly to a Contractor, they do have a major strong arm tactic. If a consumer submits a court judgement along with a complaint, and the Contractor refuses to pay, the Board can suspend the Contractor's license until he does pay. Which was my ultimate leverage. I was fully expecting him to not pay, but then he did! I never had to file the complaint.

So... we get lots and lots of stories here about contractors that either do shoddy work or won't stand behind their work (or both). This seems to me to be an ever-increasing trend. Pride in workmanship is fading. Ethics are fading. Honor is fading. And I believe that is in part because we consumers allow it. We allow it when we give in, give up, and accept bad work, or shy away from confronting and/or going after a bad contractor. My successful tally won't turn the industry around. It won't even turn these two jerks around. But if more of us demanded better quality, demanded contractors adhere to the law, and took them to court when they fail to deliver either, then maybe those contractors would tend to do better and take advantage of us a little less.

Whoa, got a little dizzy there and almost fell off my soap box!

To conclude, I once advised someone here to think twice about going after $1800. All the letters and the negotiating and the arguing and the prep and the hearing are all extremely stressful, and you have to weigh a possible win against what that will cost you in terms of mental health! I almost gave up this one myself, as it was over only about $2K. But the deeper in I got, the madder I got, the less I wanted to give up. I stuck it out, endured the stress, and now find that I am very glad I did. I'm quite proud of myself, in fact. To know I didn't back down, and held a jerk accountable, feels good. Way better than the temporary relief I might have gotten had I given up.

And to be clear, I don't think this guy is a jerk because the insulation job wasn't done right. That was not even really his doing, just a lame sub whose work the builder failed to double check. He's a jerk because he tried to ignore me, then lied, then provided misleading evidence, didn't know or follow the law, tried to dodge court papers service, and generally did everything he could to avoid his legal and ethical responsibilities. Sure, the $2K felt good, but it felt better knowing this guy didn't get away with any of that, not this time...

I had a huge cya problem (110) with my pool so I drained it, replaced the water, and while I was at it, installed a SWG. Life is good!!!

BUT! Now I actually have cya a little low (60) and I really hate to add stabilizer (like an ex-alcoholic avoiding a beer). I'm thinking that, for the winter, I could turn off my SWG (which devours my acid) and just use some trichlor tabs to maintain a low chlorine presence, at the same time adding some cya!

Good idea? If so, I need to know how many ounces of cya are in a tab. Poolmath tells me I need 32oz of Stabilizer to get from 60 to 70, so I want to know how many tabs that equates to.

Hi TFP!

I'm a technically minded Australian, who has never owned a pool before, but learned a lot in the last 2 months since I bought a house which came with a dilapidated pool (green water, leaking un-turnable filter draining the pool, pump that sounded like a jet airplane, non-functional SWG, roof solar a sprinkler system).

I loathe the smell, taste, itchy eyes and dry skin that I associate with Chlorine.

This has, perhaps understandably, lead me over the last few months along a path of seeking out and attempting to get a non-Chlorine based sanitization system working in my pool. I am well aware of TFP's position on non-Chlorine, and Cu in particular, and have read every thread on the topic on TFP at least once, most of them several times. Everything needed replacing (filter, pump, SWG, solar) so it seemed like a good time to go the whole hog and "do it right".

I have skimmed Chem Geek's posts, and look forward to studying them in detail in the near future.

Without going into detail, I have tried a copper based system, and even with all this new hardware in my case it hasn't worked out for me. I don't want to go into detail, but the business I bought it from is run by friendly, helpful people who are passionate about their product and not pushy at all, and has a no-questions-asked money-back guarantee, which I appreciated. However I'm a data and technology nerd and my concerns about the possible negative future aspects of the system and my objective observations on how the system has performed have lead me to decide this kind of system isn't for me. I appreciated the chance to see if it was right for me, it isn't, so I'm going to switch to a SWG system.

Where to from here? I will next be seeing if you guys have the magic bullet. All in with the TFP method (SWG, Taylor's, CYA 70, FC 5, BBB). But I would definitely like some advice on how I can try to get my pool feeling as close to fresh water as possible, while at the same time being pragmatic and being able to relax my brain that the pool is "under control". You can only try your best.

1. Pool type: Pebblecrete, 30+ years old
2. Pool size: 105,000 liters (Just shy of 28,000 gallons)
3. Filter: New 32" with new glass media
4. Pump: New 1.25hp variable speed

Other stuff:

1. I'm presently deciding whether I should keep the Auto PH doser that came with the system I have decided is not for me. It's working well, PH is being kept at 7.4, accuracy confirmed by PoolWerx testing.
2. I'm also deciding if I should keep the MMO-Ti based hydroxyl-radical generator oxidizer that came with the system. It seems to be working well, as in the water is clear. Perhaps it would help me run a lower FC than the TFP recommended 7%?
3. I bought a Pool eXact EZ Photometer. My testing shows it's not giving me PH results I can rely on that are within the advertised NSF-50 L1 PH specification of +- 0.2. Taylor's it is.

General goals:

1. As much automated as possible so I can go away for a fortnight without stressing too much. Auto PH / Acid Feeder, SWG with settable digital FC control, compatible with TFP CYA and FC levels.
2. Lowest salt possible, would like to keep salt un-tastable (Hayward S3 only needs 800ppm, but TFP says "go 200 above the ideal for the SWG")
3. Highest CYA while allowing SLAM without draining (ie: CYA 70), at least to start
4. SWG Automation to allow lowest Cl possible using TFP CYA/CL charts, maintain above hard min 4.5% of CYA (FC 3.15), target FC 5.0?

Next steps, I think...

1. Try to get a Taylor's 2006C plus Borates kit into Australia
2. Decide on a SWG available in Australia (Hayward Aquarite S3 operates from 800 ppm salt, would be great if salt was below taste threshold?)

I look forward to being a part of your community.

Decided to take my tax return and build myself a fire pit area. It’s a ton of work but really gonna be worth it. Using same blocks as the other features, and going to get a dark paver.

To kick this thread off, here are some photos to help illustrate my situation:
These photos are from Apr 2018, following about a year or more of maintaining a very low CSI, was during an acid test on the top step and illustrates the chalky effects below the waterline:





These photos are from 16 Jun 2018 after much sanding with standard water chemistry.




As with many of you reading this, I was once new to all of this pool stuff and followed blindly the advice of my installer and local pool store (major chain) who tested my water and told me what to do. Soon I had algae, but continued to follow the pool store’s advice until almost a year later (Apr ’14) when I found TFP. From that moment on I never had an algae bloom again, but my downfall was that for quite a while I focused mainly on algae control (FC/CYA) and gave little regard to the hard water in our area. It wasn’t until about 2-3 years later that I started to really focus on CH and my Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) levels. By that time I started to see a lightening of the shell (getting chalky). In addition, I believe I misread some of my own CH/pH water testing which presented a false number/level further contributing to my situation. So from that point forward I’ve had my focus on scale. Makes sense right? Hard water and elevated CSI? Well, perhaps. But keep reading.

Based on most discussions related to FB shell discoloration (excluding a rare defective factory gelcoat), the focus seems to be on two main possibilities - calcium scale or oxidation. It's important to point out that YOUR situation could vary based on your pool's history. You have to account for months/years of chemistry to really know which condition applies to you.

First let’s consider calcium scale. There are 3 prevalent types of calcium I see in most pool discussions: Carbonate, Silicate, and Phosphate.

Calcium Carbonate:
If you are lucky, the calcium scale in your pool may be carbonate. This type of scale can be flaky, rough, and should be easier to remove than the others. Carbonate might react favorably to local scale remover products over time. A low CSI can also prove beneficial to eroding the excess carbonate. Coupled with frequent brushing over time, the scale can slowly thin and fade away. Calcium Carbonate is often verified by pouring some muriatic acid on an area, or collecting some of the scale from the pool (off the SWG for example) and watching for a fizz or bubbling reaction.

Calcium Silicate:
If your scale deposits do not react to acid or a low CSI level for a long period of time, there are some pool sites that claim it may be calcium silicate. Besides presenting a chalky appearance, Calcium silicate is believed to have a bit of a grayish (dull) look to it and will not come off by simply scrubbing it with a brush. The concern I see with this (silicate) assumption however is that from one of our foremost authorities on plaster, “Calcium silicate is not soluble, and therefore, I don't see how it could be dissolved in pool water, which then precipitates out to deposit on a FB pool or any pool.” But if someone still believed their scale was Calcium silicate, there are really only two choices – hire a professional pool contractor to remove the deposits mechanically, or begin sanding on your own. Chemical treatments alone, if they even work, would take a very long time.

Calcium Phosphates:
Then there are phosphates. That nasty word we avoid here at TFP when discussing its relationship to promoting algae growth. But there seems to be more discussions (see HERE) about this type of calcium that is attributable to excessive high levels of phosphates (or “orthophosphates”) in the water. Phosphates can be introduced to water in many ways, to include some metal stain sequestrant products. Extremely high levels of phosphate levels are believed by some to promote this type of scaling process. When these phosphates combine with excess calcium, they form a very durable scale that is also difficult to remove. Some sites state that unlike Calcium carbonate, Calcium Phosphate is not necessarily driven by an elevated pH level and is not very soluble in water so it may try to precipitate quicker and try to bond to something if chemical conditions are suitable. In the end though, it looks like treatment is the same as with silicate - hire a professional pool contractor to remove the deposits mechanically, or begin sanding on your own. Chemical treatments alone, if they even work, would take a very long time.

In my case, I always believed my issue to be calcium scale - either silicate or phosphate. A big reason for this assumption is that I am confident the first couple years I had an elevated CH and pH level which pushed my CSI into the scale danger zone. Unlike some FB owners who said they could see white come off when they swiped their finger along the shell, this material is hard, white/gray, and doesn’t change appearance when wet. It reminds me of tarter on a kid’s tooth that needs to be scraped off. It’s not flaky-rough like carbonate calcium, and requires a LOT of sanding to cut through the build-up. HOWEVER, what did concern me about this theory is that any areas tested did not fizz or bubble when acid was applied. In addition, when I attempted to capture of some the chalky fluid during a filter rinse, my CH test didn’t change. And finally, with all the scrubbing I’ve done, my overall pool CH level never increased. Commonly we find that when someone scrubs scale off the pool walls, their CH level may increase since it has become soluble. So is my issue even scale related?

Now the discussion for oxidation:

I can see one clear example of oxidation in my pool, and it’s above the waterline where the sun has beaten the gelcoat, much like an old car hood. When I wet it however, the color gets nice and blue until it dries. Like on a boat, I could probably polish it and make it much better. Below the water line is a different story. The substance covering the gelcoat is much different, thicker and stubborn as I noted above. In cases supporting oxidation, one TFP thread noted the following, “My local pool dealer said to get my CH above 200 and the chalkiness will go away. He said the low calcium level causes fiberglass pools to oxidize which is what I'm seeing. He was quick with the answer and said he's seen it before.” I was still not convinced this applied to my situation since my calcium has generally been over 200, but I’ll keep an open mind and watch for changes. Interestingly enough, this was posted in another scale-related thread: “My pool manufacturer thinks it's the beginning of scaling. They and my local pool guy said to get the CH up to 300-350. Manufacturer suggested I use a stain/scale treatment called ScaleTec. I couldn't find it locally so I used Aqua Chem scale metal and stain control as directed except added weekly instead of monthly maint. doses and raised CH to 300. After a few weeks of brushing my chalkiness is gone." What’s odd about that scenario is that if it was scale, why increase the CH? That seemed odd to me. Increasing the CH seems to fit the oxidation scenario more than anything. In any case, there are at least 3 FB owners who claimed that by increasing their CH level to at least 300 and using over-the-counter scale removal products (with lots of brushing) the chalkiness went away. At the same time, there are other owners who claim the use of such products did nothing to remove the chalky appearances.

2016 is when I really began trying to reverse what I believed to be a calcium scale issue. I pulled my Total Alkalinity (TA) quite low (40-50) to help maintain a lower pH and CSI. In 2017 I began initial sanding all around my pool. The water would cloud-up considerably, but the walls had a patchy/streaked look about them because I didn’t cut all the way through the chalkiness. I was still a bit shy about the gelcoat and wanted to see what would happen. I continued to run my CSI quite low into early 2018. I would keep the CSI anywhere from -0.6 to -1.5 for months in hopes that along with my sanding, it would help. I brushed just about every day as well, and even used steel brushes hoping it would cut through the tough, chalkiness. But after about 18-24 months of that, the results seemed mediocre at best. In some areas, it almost seemed like the chalkiness started to come back. That made my scenario that much more puzzling causing me to question the scale theory.


Today (16 June 2018) something dawned on me as I sanded just about the last portion of the shell I would do by hand. In my mind I kept asking:
- Why didn’t the low CSI help over 1-2 years?
- Why didn’t the acid test work?
- Why does it seem like after almost a year of my first sanding, some of those areas started to get chalky again?
- If I am seeing something change back to white, there’s no way it could be calcium scale since my CSI has been very negative for close to 2 years now.

And then it dawned on me …… OXIDATION. Not for the reasons the pool manufacture try to say, but because during my long-term scale treatment (low CSI) I kept both the CH and TA too low which (I suspect) didn’t provide enough buffering agent for the low pH. The typical lightening or fading we see above the waterline was different from the acidic water environment below because it was not properly buffered by the TA. For those 1-2 years, I kept my TA very low to help keep my pH quite low as I continued to maintain a very negative CSI - again …. assuming it was scale. Maybe there was “some” scale at one time. But what if now, instead of scale, I’m seeing the effects of a gelcoat reacting to acidic water that doesn’t have enough buffering agent in it from TA? It’s no longer about the CSI (scale), but more about the proper balance for a FB pool’s gelcoat. The Viking manual shows a minimum TA of 125, and the TFP minimum is 70. I was around 40-50 for almost two years! Perhaps this is why some other FB owners experienced an improvement when they increased the CH. Not because they needed more calcium specifically, but because it, along with the available TA, helped to buffer the pH for the gelcoat? After much, much physical work in my pool, and 18-24 months of analysis of my testing records and gelcoat changes, I’m leaning more towards the oxidation theory. As such, I’ve increased my TA back to the TFP recommended zone of about 80-90 while simultaneously watching my pH and CSI to stay slightly negative. I will always work to prevent scale, but now suspect my current problem is oxidation from maintaining both a low TA and CH for too long.

Lessons Learned
- Even as a TFP member for some 4 years now, it’s easy to get side-tracked. In my case it was all about scale. So unless you have an immediate, short-term issue to change your levels, stay within the TFP Recommended Levels.
- Do FB pools need calcium? …… from an etching perspective - no. Not today’s FB pools. However, while we can assume FB pools need no calcium because they were not made with plaster products, the CH and TA do play a vital role in keeping the pH and overall corrosive nature of water at-bay and from becoming too strong for the gelcoat. Hence the minimum levels. For FB pools, it’s not all about scale. I missed that point.
- In the first couple years of my pool, I allowed my pH to stay on higher end of scale. For some reason I feared the thought of “acidic” water. Ironic now right? This fear contributed to an elevated CSI, but I wasn’t smart on that subject at the time. In hindsight, with our local hard water, a slightly more acidic environment is exactly what my pool needed.
- I had a hard time early-on differentiating between the final end-point (color) of the CH test. When it began to change from a light purple, I stopped too soon and didn’t allow the reagent to completely change to baby blue. For quite some time, I cheated myself on the CH test by thinking it was 75-100 ppm lower than it actually was.
- Pool companies and manufactures have one goal – operate a business to make a profit. Once you buy it, it’s done. Don’t expect them to bend-over backwards for you. At that point you’re just a liability and impeding their business. Almost all of them require “pool store” testing records that basically follow the antiquated industry recommendations of the American Pool and Spa Association (APSP). If you don’t have validated testing results from a place they recognize from day 1, your warranty is no longer valid.
- Two of us in this forum received the EXACT SAME response letter from a well-known manufacturer’s warranty department, claiming our conditions were caused by the same exact issue(s). Not only that, but in the letter it states that, “The discoloration is caused by corrosive water (typically high in pH and chlorine) and in most cases, but not all cases, the pool is equipped with a salt chlorine generator.“ So then I asked, how can a high pH contribute to a corrosive environment? I now believe their response was incorrect. The water may have been too corrosive, but not because of a high pH or chlorine, but because of a low pH (acidic water) and not enough TA and/or CH to compensate and buffer/protect the gelcoat.
- Brushing. I know for the first few years I really didn’t brush consistently - hardly at all in fact. Fiberglass was always boasted as “so easy to care for” (low maintenance) that I didn’t see a need to brush much. Not sure if that had any impact on the material’s ability to adhere to the gelcoat, but I brush on a routine basis now just in case.

What worked (or didn’t work) for me?
- The low CSI didn’t seem to make much visible difference over a couple years. From 2016 to 2018, it might have helped slightly. Sunlight and the angle of the sun make it tough to tell at times. But if my issue turns-out to be oxidation like I think, the CSI was irrelevant.
- At the end of 2017/early 2018, several bottles of ScaleTec didn’t seem to make a difference. It is possible however that those products, combined with the lower CSI, helped to make my sanding slightly easier. I say “slightly” because it was still extremely slow and exhausting, but in some areas there’s a significant amount of dust removed with each stroke of sanding. But again, if my issue turns-out to be oxidation, the CSI is irrelevant. See a pattern?
- Sanding definitely provided the quickest and most rewarding visible results. While my installers had me test areas with 600 wet/dry, I soon learned that I needed paper stronger to cut though the material covering the gelcoat. For me, I found that 120 grit wet/dry worked the best. One sheet helped me cut though about 5 square feet before it got clogged or too smooth. I found that sanding by hand was best. Sanding blocks didn’t seem to cover the surface uniformly or adequately, so I wore gloves suitable for water to protect my skin as I sanded which also gave me a better “feel” for the slight contours of the shell.


May 2013 – Pool installed; almost immediately struggled with algae (pool store advice, go figure)
Apr 2014 – Joined TFP; focus primarily on clear water, which it was from that point forward
Early 2015 – Started to observe a change (lighter) in the color of the shell; I’m sure my CH and pH levels got a bit elevated those first two years. Initially began to suspect scale.
Sep 2015 - This is when I started keeping my TA around 50. I may have good reason to lower the CSI, but I fear the TA was too low for too long - the possible beginnings of oxidation.
2016 – Shell becoming lighter, more apparent; CSI still low with no changes.
2017 – Began initial (light) sanding; still maintaining a low CSI (very acidic); no obvious changes
Dec 2017 – My installer recommended using 2 bottles of ScaleTec each month for a few months before submitting warranty request; assuming the chalkiness was scale; no visible change
Apr 2018 – Contacted by Latham Pool (representing Viking); conducted scale (acid bubbling) test w/ negative results; they pointed towards corrosive water or oxidation
May 2018 – Began aggressive sanding to recover the original Maya Blue; going everywhere I could reach comfortably by hand.
Jun 2018 – More sanding; LOTS of daily brushing (2-3 times per day); also tried more use of chemicals such as ScaleTec Plus, Natural Chemistry’s Scale Free, Jack’s Magic (Magenta), and Trade Strength phosphate remover (in case it was phosphate scale).
16 Jun 2018 - The day I realized that my primary battle may not be scale any longer, but could be oxidation. Increased TA back to about 80-90 while maintaining a slightly negative CSI for scale control.


- Continue to maintain CSI on the slightly low/negative side (-0.1 to -0.3).
- Increase and maintain my TA at about 80-90.
- About done with sanding by hand. The rest will remain as-is while I monitor any changes between the chalky area and what I have reclaimed back to blue. This should help me confirm if it’s calcium related or oxidation and/or if my changes are working.
- I’m not sure if chemistry works this way, but I’m hoping (if any of it is still scale) that the more chalkiness I remove by hand, the better the effects of any chemical treatments or slightly negative CSI will have on the remaining material. Wishful thinking perhaps, but we’ll see.
- I’m very pleased with my sanding results so far. With the exception of the floor and deeper side areas, much of the pool’s original color is back which helps to present a darker pool all-round.
- I might experiment with various Scale Free products in hopes that it will help thin any remaining calcium scale along - if that’s what it is along the lower walls and floor.
- I sometimes supplement refills with my water softener to help slow the CH’s rate of increase. Although in terms of the oxidation theory and success some FB owners had with a higher CH level, I may keep mine between 250- 300 (currently at 250) to see what that does.

I will post periodic updates and pics to this thread to keep all my fellow FB pool owners informed. Remember, your pool condition could be based on either scale or oxidation. It's important you consider the pool's chemical history (if available) for the past several years to really know for sure.

Just wanted to share that thanks to all of my fine friends here, my Stenner Pump, and pool and general is up and running. I had a laugh with the tech at stenner when it didn’t work at first… turns out there is a power switch. Working great now.

Hey all, I wanted to document detailed steps for ordering items from TFTestkits.net into Canada using Shippsy to handle the cross-border stuff. This is a follow-up to these instructions so big thanks to @MostlyCanuck (I had never heard of Shippsy)!

For cost, my TFTestkits.net order came to $200 USD ($ 254.00 CAD). The tax and Shippsy handling fee came to $41.00 CAD (so $295.00 CAD all said and done). No duty as it is manufactured in the US. This all took about 2 weeks from when I ordered, to when I picked up.

1. Create a Shippsy account and note the US address (and your "SHP#")
2. Place your order on TFTestkits.net:

• For shipping address, use the US address from Shippsy. The SHP# is very important. I put it in the "Company" field but I was advised "Address 2" would also work.
• For payment, I used PayPal because, as @MostlyCanuck noted, the website doesn't accept non-us credit cards.

3. Once your package is received at the US Shippsy warehouse (in Niagara Falls, NY). You'll get an email and need to fill in some tax/duty-related information:

• For Description, I used "Pool Test Kit"
• Select that it was manufactured in the US, you'll need to attach proof. I downloaded the SDS PDF for one of the reagents included in my kit from Taylor's website. I was advised by Shippsy this would be sufficient as it shows the US factory address. Attached to this post is the one I used.
• For Product Category, I chose Category: "Other", Sub-Category: "Other". NOTE: doing this almost gave me a heart attack as it shows the "estimated duty and tax" to be ~$6000! I was told by Shippsy, for "Other", they show the maximum. As you can see above, there was no duty and the tax ended up being ~$33 CAD.
• For the Invoice, upload the PDF version of the invoice from TFTestkits.net
• For Pickup Location, you can choose either Mississauga or Markham (there might have been a location in BC but I can't remember). I chose Mississauga (I live about an hour away).
• Submit!

4. Once your item arrives at the warehouse in Canada, you'll get a notification. You can either go pick it up yourself or have it mailed to your house. For my kit, it was going to cost ~$15 CAD to mail. I opted to pickup but with the price of gas, I likely spent more than that... Not to mention the headache of driving in the GTA. Next time I'll have it mailed.

That's it! Hopefully this helps someone. Feel free to hit me up with any questions/clarifications.

--Kevin

We had a new pool built last year so first winter with it. It snowed yesterday so couldn’t see where the edge of the cover/pool is. The kids were in the yard running around and one basically ran right through the pool over the safety cover. Had it been a tarp, they would’ve been right into the water.

You could blame it on me for not keeping the kids away but I see this as the reason why we got a safety cover. Can’t be around them 100% of the time. Our yard is small and having another fence around the pool would’ve been hideous. The safety cover did its job.

I have always estimated my pool volume to be 20,000 gallons based on measuring the results of chemical additions, like CYA or salt. The pool builder was certain it was 30,000 from looking at it. Since it's a totally irregular shape (sides and bottom) I had no way to directly measure it ... until today. I just finished filling to pool and the water meter reads 21,580 gallons. Subtract my home's average daily usage and you get ~21,450 gallons.

Sorry if it's not an informative post, but after 7 years of wondering if I was right it felt good to know I was within 7%.

Welcome to Trouble Free Pool. This forum is closely moderated. We have earned a reputation as one of the friendliest forums on the net and we have designed our site rules to protect that reputation. Above all we ask all members to please treat others as you would like to be treated. Violation of the rules listed below may result in the termination of your account.


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1. Please keep related topics in one post. That way, the entire storyline and related advice is located in one spot which makes it easy for other members to follow and offer further advice.

2. We'd also like to ask that you create a signature with details about your pool. Knowing the size of the pool, whether it is in-ground or above ground, what kind of construction and what kind of equipment you have is a big help to people trying to help you. Read a few posts to see examples of other members' signatures. To create your signature, click here.

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Yeah, you read that right. I have no need for TFP.

Three and a half years ago I ran across this site by complete accident. I struggled to get and keep my pool clean and clear. I was yo-yoing every year -- green-blue-green-blue...

After reading and reading and asking and reading, waiting, deciding, I finally went all in, with everything in my signature. For the last year, I have put almost no effort in to maintaining our pool, other than testing and normal "stuff", like empty robot basket, filter cleaning, some light brushing, etc. The only issue I had was FC was a little higher when it colder and cloudier -- a couple clicks of a button fixed that.

So, yes, because of this group, I no longer need this group, which is kind of the point, isn't it?

I encourage anyone who can to support the site to help future generations to not need the site.

PS - just because I don't "need" TFP does not mean I don't want and use it.

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, AH-64 Apache attack helicopters……

It’s that time of year again with an influx of newbs either getting a late start or coming to us trying to undo what hasn’t been working. First of all, I’d like to welcome you all. You’re gonna love it here. We will help you maintain a pool the stupid easy and even stupid-er cheap way.

We’ve likely told you that you need a reliable test kit, but they seem so scary. You meander over to pool school to see what it entails, and although it’s simply and exactly written, it seems like rocket science and you are in way over your head. We throw terms all back and forth that are Greek to you. Take your R-0871 and and swirl drops with R-0870 in the 10ml vial and whatnot. Many many folks are overwhelmed and remember failing chemistry. (Side note, I don’t believe everyone failed chemistry that says they did at this point, but I still LOVE the jokes anyway).

So, while the test kits come with a cheat sheet and the same instructions are very simply laid out in pool school, I want to break it down further so you can realize how stupid easy it all is. We were in your shoes. We were all overwhelmed when we were there. We all finally sucked it up and tried…….. and 3 tries later we *facepalmed*.

For starters I will take the all important FC test that will be done the most frequently. If we can convince you that you can easily do it, you’ll understand better that ALL the tests are just as easy. Each is a little different, and they all have their own quirks/hacks, but first we have to get you over the hump to try.

If you look at the instructions as a whole it’s insane. Stop right there. Use your hands, or paper, to block off everything but the FC test. Oooooooh. That’s much better already. Ok now, here we go. One step at a time. Scan that test for which supplies you need. No need to care what each one means yet. We will get there later. Just get the supplies listed as their reagent #. For FC it’s R-0870, R-0871 and R-0003. Stupid easy to find the bottles, right ? Get them together and here we go. Ignore all the other bottles for now.

1) rinse and fill vial to 10ml. Ok ? I can do that

2) add heaping scoop of R-0870 powder.

Oooooooo-K? I guess that’s easy enough.
*still skeptical*. *probably grimmacing now*

*vial turns hot pink*
Ooooooooh. Prettttttttttty. What a lovely shade. Pay attention you dolts !!! This is SERIOUS STUFF !!!!

3). add R-0871, one drop at a time, 1-2 seconds apart, swirl and count. *now grimacing that you are halfway through and it’s all been so easy*.

4). When solution turns clear, stop. *facepalms at how stupid easy this all really is*

5) divide drops by 2 for FC. ( ie, 10 drops = 5 FC). *throws instruction card because they doubted themselves*. *has tantrum*.





We still need to check for CCs but you’re a LEGIT scientist now. Pffffffffft. *grabs bottle of R-0003*

6). Add 5 drops of R-0003. Why !!! Why did I doubt myself ??? I’m SO stupid that I thought I’d be stupid !!! ARRRRRRGH !!!

7). If solution stays clear, no CCs. If it goes pink again, add drops of R-0871 and same as FC, Count and Divide by 2 for CCs.

BOOM. Done. Look at you go !!!!

It is *that* stupid easy

So we went to our new-to-us house for a couple hours today (we move in tomorrow) and I tested the free chlorine at 15ppm using a 25ml water sample. Being new to this and sensing this was way too high I tested the water again using a 10ml water sample and that one came back at 17ppm. I'll do a much more thorough test of the water tomorrow when I'm rested but that seems WAAAAY too high. I glanced at the Pentair IC40 SWCG and all the lights were lit so I think the pool care guy the previous owners used had it set at 100% which seems way overkill because the water temperature is 55. The SWCG was set at 100% when we looked at the pool a couple weeks ago too.

I tested the salt and it was around 3,600 so at least that is OK.

Hello TFP fam - I have been staying up late browsing these forums and have found it to be a valuable resource so now that my new pool is underway I wanted to start documenting the process. Here are a few pictures to document the current progress. We are doing a 30 x 19 freeform shotcrete pool with spa and slide. We are also adding a covered porch, outdoor kitchen and gazebo. Trying to coordinate all this at the same time in addition to adding a french drain is proving to be quite the challenge but I'm exciting for the end result. I will update will more pics as we move along.

I have an in-ground salt pool with attached spa. There's a spillway between the elevated round spa and the pool. It has 3 flat adjacent (no gaps) marble tiles that the spillover flows over and into the pool. I get a decent flow and good chlorine levels with my VS pump set to about 2400 rpm (standard operation).

BUT, the water over the leftmost tile tends to dribble over the edge, while the other 2/3 of the spillway makes a nice waterfall. Of course, cranking up the pump speed to 2800-3000 gives a more uniform waterfall, but that's a bit wasteful and nonideal. I also didn't want to reset or grind down the slow spillover tile.

SO, I put my thinking cap on, tried an easy fix, and it worked! Here's what I did: after the pool shut down for the night, I took a candle and rubbed it along the front edge and forward top portion of the 'slow' tile. I used a white candle and rubbed fairly hard. The applied wax was invisible. Turned on the pool, and now I have a uniform spillover across all 3 tiles.

The wax repels water and keeps the slower spillway section from 'sticking' to the tile. This is a really easy and quick and cheap fix if you have a spillway that's just a bit uneven.

I just wanted to tell all of you here are TFP that I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

I am ok. I'm grateful for a wonderful community to help me learn my new pool and for the friends that I have made over the years and care deeply about. My daughter called me a half hour ago and asked me if I were doing anything and honestly I am not. So she is coming over with my granddaughter, we're making pizza and eating ice cream for Christmas.

Hug your loved ones and keep them tight in your hearts. Forgive the ones you love for their trespasses and bridge the gap with those in your life you feel distance with. Say you're sorry if you've hurt someone. Forgive a debt... it's just money you'll never take it with you. Say I love you to someone you haven't said it to in awhile. Tomorrow is never promised! Take care of each other! Live a little. Laugh a lot. Love deeply.

Hi y'all! This past summer we bought a house with a pool in Portland, OR and are first time pool owners. It doesn't have a cover, and according to the pool service the previous owners didn't close the pool in winter. Apparently in years past it was easy to manage by running the pump for a few hours each day, the Polaris thing every couple of days, managing chemicals, and brushing/skimming as needed. And so far so good!

But, we *may* get cold weather next week. It's probably lies based on previous experience, but just in case we do actually get down to the 15-30*F range for a few days I'd like to have an idea of what we should do. What suggestions do you have about keeping our pool safe from freezing problems? The house came with a full home backup generator, so at a minimum we can run the pump if the power goes out. All of the equipment is in a space we access from outside in a sort of finished crawlspace area that also has a furnace, hot water heater, etc so it's not heated but it's not outside.

I feel like maybe just running the pump more (or constantly?) for the week might make sense but I really have no idea. I'm certain we do not have a variable speed pump. I can't remember what kind of heater we have but we could turn that on as well though I'm sure that's not going to warm things up enough to swim!

Help, please? You always have the best and most trustworthy advice.

There are two important issues involved when trying to achieve quality colored pool plaster that will remain durable, attractive, and the proper shade for many years.

The first issue is to utilize superior workmanship practices to achieve good color, with minimal mottling, and no blotchiness, white streaking or soft spotting, which our previous email update addressed. (Note: Some pool owners prefer the slight mottling variation that is normal for colored plaster).

The second issue is using quality color pigments (added to plaster mixes) that will hold up well for years and not lose its’ color in a swimming pool environment, which is the topic of this update. One would think that all color pigments used in pools are colorfast, meaning that the color doesn’t fade or become bleached in chlorinated water or in sunlight. Sadly, that is not the case.

What has been learned?

The onBalance team has conducted many experiments with various pool plaster products, such as pebble and quartz exposed aggregate products that contain color pigments.

It appears the plaster products that contain “organic” pigments become bleached (loss of color) over time when subjected to chlorine (an oxidizer). But products with “inorganic” pigments generally do not become bleached. Additionally, experiments which subjected both organic and inorganic pigments to LSI aggressive water showed that neither type of pigment lost their color from etching.

When an organic pigment, phthalo blue for example, is bleached and loses its color over time in chlorinated water, the plaster surface becomes “whitish” because it is made with white Portland cement.

However, it was also observed that when two (or more) color pigments are added to a plaster product mix to obtain a unique and special color, and the blue organic pigment became bleached and faded, the other color pigment(s), if inorganic and colorfast (often a gray or brown pigment), remains unaffected, intact, and becomes the dominate color.

Obviously, only pigments that are colorfast are appropriate for swimming pool finishes.

Question: Why would material manufacturers and plasterers sell and use non-colorfast pigments that will not keep their color? One reason may be that organic (non-colorfast) pigments are usually much cheaper than the superior (colorfast) inorganic pigments. Of course, that allows some companies to underbid the quality-oriented companies.

Who Takes Responsibility or Not

The NPC has a Technical Bulletin addressing common color pigment problems. Amazingly, their bulletin does not mention anything regarding colorfastness and that (organic) color pigments can be bleached by chlorine or other oxidizers. Plus, no acknowledgement that excessive water troweling can cause white streaking, soft spotting, or blotchiness to slowly develop over time. And no mention that calcium chloride (hardening accelerator additive) should not be used with colored pigments as manufacturers WARN against, as it also contributes to severe blotchiness.

Instead, the NPC suggests that “aggressive water” causes color fading or whitening of colored plaster (along with causing many other plaster defects and discolorations), all of which is false. Of course, calcium scaling can mask the color, but that can be easily determined and rectified.

The plaster industry has misled the industry that water chemistry has the most significant and negative effect on the durability and color of plaster. To the contrary, there are various plaster/cement studies that have shown that poor workmanship and materials have a greater effect.

Think about this: Plasterers and material manufacturers generally recommend performing extremely aggressive “acid bath” or “hot start” treatments on new plaster and exposed aggregate finishes to accentuate the color or to remedy some discolorations. If those acid treatments aren’t causing plaster defects or discolorations, then on what basis do they claim that slightly aggressive water during Start-ups or afterwards causes all unsightly plaster problems?

Bottom Line: Using quality materials, including colorfast pigments, and superior workmanship will best ensure a durable and attractive pool finish for 20 years or more. That is what my father’s plastering company provided for their customers.
See this link for information on proper plastering practices. Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster

For photos of bleached pigmented plaster and more detailed information, click on these two links:

Pigments and Pools | Pools/Spas | Watershapes

http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Colorfastness-Handout.pdf

Hey Everyone,

Been following this forum for nearly a year now. Excited to say that 9+ months since signing our contract with a PB we've finally broken ground and started the build process. The 9+ months of waiting on permits and other delays has been a miserable process, but we're super excited things are finally underway.

Our Pool Specs:
- 12 x 16 in-ground pool
- 6 x 8 attached spa
- Pentair Intelliflo 3 Hp. 8 speed variable with rare earth magnet Pool/Spa pump
- Pentair 400,000 BTU Pool/Spa heater with digital control
- Pentair 420 filter
- Pentair Sand Shark Vacuum
- Pentair Screenlogic WiFi
- Pentair Saltwater purification system
- Automatic water leveler
- Pentair 5 G LED color changing GFCI protected Pool light with low water shut off sensor
- Pentair 5 G LED color changing GFCI protected Spa light with low water shut off sensor
- Urban Snow Modern Marble Brushed and Sandblasted coping
- Arctic White Ledger Panels

Photos of backyard prior to excavation:




Demolition:



Adding more photos in next post. I think I ran out of space.