1poolman1 said:

they were all parallel installations. Careful measurements of the plumbing was all that was needed to assure fairly balanced flow into and out of each.

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Ed LaCrosse said:

Hello all,

Apologies in advance for the long post.

I'm puzzled by the water flow in my pool's plumbing. When the main pump is running, all appears well, with no leaks visible anywhere near the exposed plumbing around the filter, pump, etc. I seldom need to add water except when it gets really hot, dry, or windy.

When the main pump is off, I hear gurgling sounds that suggest water is flowing out of the filter, back through the skimmer basket, and out to the pool, but I can't detect where in the pool any water is entering. Moreover, air is entering the water lines during this process. After sitting overnight, the skimmer basket has water up to the level of the input from the pool; i.e., it drains until it can't drain any more, with air filling the remainder of the basket. The gurgling sounds have stopped; no more water is running out of the filter. When the pump comes back on, it needs to re-prime itself, and every couple days or so, I have to bleed air out of the filter.

If I open the bleed valve on the top of the filter while the pump is off, air is sucked into the top of the filter as the water drains from it.

I'm trying to figure out where the air is entering the system and where the water from the filter is going when the pump is off, so I can "fix" it. Try as I might, I'm not getting it figured out, so I thought I'd stop by here to see if any of the experts can "solve" the puzzle for me.

I've attached a picture, below, of my exposed plumbing for reference.

View attachment 631798

Numbers in the picture correspond to water flows as follows:

1. Filter to heater
2. Filter from pump
3. Heater to pool and spa
4. To spa
5. To pool, fountain, vacuum
6. To fountain (note there is a check valve in this line)
7. Spa bubbler/blower (no water)
8. To fountain, after check valve (continuation of 6)
9. To pool, vacuum pump
10. To vacuum pump
11. To vacuum
12. Spa drain, pool skimmer basket, main drain to pump skimmer basket
13. From spa drain
14. From pool main drain
15. From pool skimmer basket

I've tried opening and closing various combinations of the Jandy valves when the pump is off and I get, to me, very confusing results. Examples follow.

If I close the valve at 12, presumably I cut off all flow back to the pool from the pump, but when I do, flow continues out of the filter!

If I close that same Jandy valve to 14 and 15, then flow stops. If I move that valve back to 12 and close the Jandy valve at 15 (theoretically prohibiting flow to both the pool skimmer basket an main drain, flow continues!

I've tried a few more combinations, but I'll stop here to seek any input or advice you folks might have. I'm willing to call in our pool service, but I really want to try to figure out what's going on, if I can, before I do.

Thanks for any insight.

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Russmd said:

Regarding the solar valve- I did not confirm what you questioned yet but I don’t see how that would be involved seeing as I have the water leaking even when the Jandy isolation valve past it is closed (see photos earlier in the thread). That takes the solar valve out of the loop at that point by my understanding. I realize this is not worth chasing much, I’m just curious. Thanks.

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nuttyp said:

I love the idea of two heat pumps – I’ve been thinking about it for awhile, partly because I repaired one and now have a spare just sitting there unconnected The cost to run two should be nearly identical to the cost to run one – just faster with two, making it possible to recover the needed water temp at a reasonable time of the day after the nightly loss. Of course, in NY that will be a short season anyway, running only during seasons with 75degreesF highs for the daytime, as you say. But a longer season than with one heater. Also with two you get redundancy when one is broken.

I would plumb them in series, not parallel, thus avoiding the need to mess with flow diversion, inadequate flow, or a second pump. My former condo association runs a pair of heat pumps in series here in South FL, I imagine doing so is fairly common to speed up daily recovery from overnight losses in uncovered pools. With the two plumbed in series, I believe the pool service had one of them set 3 to 5 degrees warmer than the other, or maybe just a couple degrees different, I forget. They worked out some logical settings so that both ran to do the bulk of the work, then one of them fine tuned the temperature. One goal would be simply to keep them from cycling a lot, even though they have built in protection from true short cycling.

If those natural gas calculations are correct – wow, I had no idea electric pool heat was so much cheaper than natural gas. Many of us in South FL do not have natural gas service at all, so I never looked into it. Folks deploy large propane tanks sometimes, but that too is very pricey. I suspect you are correct that no tax credits could possibly apply to heating a pool, and I cannot think of any way to call electric heat pump pool heat “geothermal”. Still, worth a look as you say.

@1poolman1 offered some good math for your electric costs, but it would not surprise me if you wound up spending well over that $180 or even $360 per month, perhaps well over $400/month on just pool heat. I say that in part because you’ll be tempted to open the pool more when you can recover “quickly” (eg in 6 hours or so daily), also because you’ll be lucky to get 80% of the rated BTU when it’s cold out (see your heaters COP rating and BTU output spec at ambient temps) – especially in the mornings. And if you have a lot of surface area on a 50K gallon pool your overnight losses – uncovered – could be 10 degrees or more. Here I am in one of the warmest average US temp zones and I lose at least 5 degrees per night (uncovered, 16K gals) in March. If I lose more than 5 degrees on a colder or windier night, I turn off the pool heat because the recovery of those 5 degrees takes about 6 hours and therefore about $5-$6 per day at 15 cents per kwh. For me, that extra $150/month on the electric bill is about the max I’m willing to spend. It would, however, be nice to recover faster, at the same cost! Well, not truly the same cost because the pool would be heated for a larger portion of the day, and when it’s heated the loss rate and evaporation increases. Vicious circle In NY I might go with three heaters and a dome cover over the pool!

Of course, and as you and others noted, the service panel sizing and related breaker and/or subpanel sizings are critical. Best to get permitted and done by qualified electrician, inspected, etc. However, this residential load calculator can give you some good direction for main panels and subpanels – assuming you learn to use it carefully and properly. Electrical Load Calculations for Residential Service Panel - Online Load Calculator

Have fun! ... Joe

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swamprat69 said:

Ended up getting all of the old removed, etched, rinsed, coated and colored. and then sealed for $ 3000 (just under $6/sq,ft. Crew was very detail oriented and left everything very clean. Looks great! I might have them clean, stain and seal my concrete patio next.

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mas985 said:

Given your location, I don't understand why you even bother with "winterization". We get far colder than you do and I don't bother with anything related to winterization or freeze protection. It is never an issue even if temperatures dip down to freezing.

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...

www.troublefreepool.com

Did you confirm that the solar valve is a valve with an internal check valve? Those will often leak some. Standard valves can leak as well.

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NYR56 said:

I suppose when we have a heated pool though, we'll ultimately get spoiled and want it longer.

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NYR56 said:

I found an interesting price comparison on energy.gov that shows HP vs NG heater cost by city and desired temperature.

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NYR56 said:

That said, I really can't imagine going in when it's <70 outside

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NYR56 said:

I've thought about buying even just a rectangle cover to fit 2/3 of the pool, but it would still be a hassle and honestly ruin the look to some extent.

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Russmd said:

My panel arrays look to be plumbed in parallel. I’ve attached pictures below. They are on the same plane but there are definitely some rising sections of pipe that would inhibit draining through the piping/pump system. I don’t know for sure that each array has a vacuum relief valve but I believe so. I included a pic of the hose bib that I have on each array to allow manual draining, they drain easily and fully through these. To reiterate, my issue is not draining them for off season- that I do easily with the hose bibs. My issue is that when I have just the automatic solar valve turned off, I still get some minimal flow through the panels as evidenced by small flow out the hose bibs should they be open. If I turn both isolation ball valves off, dripping out the bibs stops. If I open the isolation valve on the return line, dripping starts up again despite there being a check valve (which I replaced the guts of already) in that line. If I close both isolation valves and open the hose bibs, all drains easily and dripping stops so I can do that in off season, I just like everything to work perfectly!

Click to expand...

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...

www.troublefreepool.com