Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught

This thread will discuss some of the topics that are either not taught or are taught with incorrect or incomplete information, at least as far as I can tell from those who have had CPO training. If any of you have had recent CPO training and can comment on whether the following is accurate in terms of not currently being taught, then that would be helpful and I will update this post accordingly. The purpose is to readily be able to list what areas need to be improved in the event that NSPF becomes willing to improve the CPO course or as a guide for those of you who take such courses to give constructive feedback. This thread may also be referenced from other threads where someone is quoting CPO information that is incomplete or inaccurate.

CPO certification is great, but none of the NSPF CPO, APSP or IPSSA courses/manuals teach the following information, at least not completely. Some of these courses are more targeted to commercial/public pool operation and cover many things other than just water chemistry that I have focused on below. I purchased the 2009 "CPO® Handbook, National Swimming Pool Foundation®" with front cover title "Pool & Spa Operator™ Handbook" and it is a very impressive manual. It is well organized, in full color, with many charts and examples and a lot of very good information. Nevertheless, it could be improved by covering the following information. In the following, the term "the handbook" refers to the handbook with the officially referenced name I just gave in quotes.

[EDIT] A detailed report of suggestions for improvement to the Handbook is in this Word file (or this PDF document) that I wrote. [END-EDIT]

Effects From Different Sources of Chlorine
The following are chemical facts independent of concentration of product or of pool or spa size [EDIT] (added info on affect on TA after accounting for chlorine addition and usage/consumption): [END-EDIT]

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6.1 ppm and decreases Total Alkalinity (TA) by 7.1 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9.1 ppm and decreases TA by 3.5 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm and increases TA by about 0.4 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by ANY source of chlorine, there will be 8.2 ppm salt from when the chlorine gets used/consumed and converts to chloride. For bleach, chlorinating liquid, and lithium hypochlorite, there is an additional 8.2 ppm salt added upon addition so the net result is 16.5 ppm salt from these sources and the TA rises by 0.1-0.6 ppm depending on the amount of "excess lye" in the product.

The handbook does not disclose the above information for any of the chlorine sources except for Dichlor where it is stated that one pound per 10,000 gallons provides (for dihydrate) 6.7 ppm FC and 6 ppm stabilizer.

Using the chemical facts from different chlorine sources noted above, even at a low 1 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, this means an increase in CYA from Trichlor of nearly 110 ppm after a 6 month swim season if there is no dilution of the water. The salt added by bleach, chlorinating liquid or lithium hypochlorite, even at 2 ppm FC per day is about 590 ppm after 6 months. If there is continual dilution of the water annually of around 1/3rd the pool water volume (equivalent to a one-time dilution of around 28%), then the long-term CYA level in the example I gave would be around 330 ppm while the long-term salt level in the other example would be 1770 ppm. Remember that SWG pools usually have 3000 ppm salt. So it takes much more dilution to keep CYA in check than to keep salt levels in check (and in my examples I used double the chlorine usage rate for the salt example than for the CYA example, just to emphasize the point). A similar analysis using Cal-Hypo with a low 1 ppm FC per day would result in a long-term CH level of 383 ppm, but higher chlorine usage would result in higher CH levels so use of Cal-Hypo is more manageable than stabilized chlorine (assuming 1/3 pool volume annual dilution rates done via continuous dilution).

The handbook talks about the side effects, but without being specific (as above) so people don't have a clear idea of how quickly CYA or CH or salt build up and why that's a bigger problem for CYA than for CH which is a bigger problem than for salt (more on that later).

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS)
The industry says that high TDS is a problem. This is not exactly true. TDS is mostly salt and is only an issue if it gets very high (remember that SWG pools typically use 3000 ppm salt) in terms of increased corrosion rates from the higher conductivity (and chloride levels for stainless steel). TDS can be a rough measure of the age of the water (depending on bather load and source of chlorine used) but the main problem with higher TDS in residential pools is that it usually is associated with higher CYA levels from continued use of stabilized chlorine (Trichlor or Dichlor) and it is the higher CYA level that is the true source of some problems; in particular, algae growth.

In commercial/public pools where most of the chlorine demand is from bather load, the higher TDS from accumulated chloride that came from chlorine can be a proxy indicator for a buildup of unoxidized chemicals from bather waste and other organic material, but using regular water replacement as a function of bather load is a more reliable way of keeping the water fresh. One can also measure the overnight chlorine demand to determine if there are substances in the pool increasing chlorine demand. This analysis should be done after eliminating the known issues from a low FC/CYA ratio or other water chemistry parameters.

The handbook does refer to TDS as a proxy for organic matter buildup and increases the probability of metal corrosion, but doesn't note that in low bather load pools, such as most residential pools, TDS is mostly salt and the organic buildup may be relatively low.

Chlorine/CYA Relationship
The courses (and handbook) do not teach about the true effects of CYA on chlorine, even though this has been known since at least 1974 definitively determined in this paper. This is the technical foundation for the chlorine/CYA chart though this chart was originally developed more from observational experience by Ben Powell (more on that later below) based on the minimum FC/CYA levels for preventing algae growth. At a pH near 7.5, the equivalent Free Chlorine (FC) level with no CYA in terms of the same active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) concentration is roughly close to the FC/CYA ratio as derived in this post. So pools with an FC that is roughly 10% of the CYA level are equivalent to pools with an FC of around 0.1 ppm and no CYA. This is at cooler temperatures (closer to 77F so OK with pools in the 80-85 range; spas at 100-104F have a higher effective FC with no CYA).

The FC test does not measure active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) alone, but also measures hypochlorite ion and, most importantly measures all of the chlorine bound to CYA (i.e. chlorinated isocyanurates) since this gets released quickly in the time of the test (see this paper). Looking at FC alone without consideration of CYA gives a false sense of security since it does not measure the chlorine level responsible for most of the sanitation and oxidation. The reaction rates for chemical reactions are based on the instantaneous concentration, not on whether a chemical gets replenished by conversion from another form (i.e. chlorine bound to CYA). One should stop thinking of FC as meaning anything in terms of chlorine strength when there is CYA in the water. FC is simply a measurement of the total reservoir of chlorine available and NOT a measure of its active strength. The FC/CYA ratio (or scaled up version for spas) is the relevant number for chlorine's true strength for sanitation and oxidation.

I and others who are technically oriented on this forum have pored through the scientific literature and found that the chlorine/CYA relationship holds extremely well in almost every case, be it for killing of bacteria (here, here, here, here, here), inactivation of viruses (here, here), protozoan oocysts (here, here, here, here), inhibition of algae growth (this paper claimed no correlation, but real pools say otherwise; Sommerfeld never wrote back to me when I questioned this), and oxidation of ammonia and organics (here) as well as correlation with ORP (see this post, this paper and this paper). I've also gone through field study data where the industry makes claims that only Free Chlorine (FC) matters in "real pools" yet I saw that bacteria are killed so easily that you can't even draw that conclusion from such studies and that hypochlorous acid (HOCl) is at least as good a predictor though they never looked at that correlation nor the FC/CYA ratio as a proxy (see this thread).

The handbook does not talk about the chlorine/CYA relationship in detail and only indicates that with CYA in the water, higher chlorine concentrations or contact times are needed to inactivate cryptosporidium and that excessive levels of CYA may lead to an increased risk of algae.

TA and its Effect on Rising pH
The courses do not clearly explain how Total Alkalinity (TA), and specifically the carbonate portion of TA, is a SOURCE of rising pH so that as counter-intuitive as it may seem, a lower TA results in a lower rate of pH rise over time in most cases (when the pH rise is due to carbon dioxide outgassing). They do not teach that pools are intentionally OVER-CARBONATED to provide a pH buffer and to protect plaster and that this over-carbonation is the primary source of pH rise in pools using hypochlorite sources of chlorine. They do say to use a lower TA range of 80-100 ppm vs. 100-120 for acidic sources of chlorine such as Trichlor, but even lower TA levels may be needed in some cases (especially in spas using the Dichlor-then-bleach method). The ratio of how far out-of-equilibrium the carbon dioxide is in the water vs. the air at various pH and TA levels is shown in this chart though the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing appears to be related to the square of the TA rather than being linearly related (that is, the outgassing rate greatly outpaces the additional pH buffering at higher TA levels).

The handbook indicates that at higher levels of TA, the pH is usually higher than ideal and becomes very difficult to change, but does not indicate that TA itself is a source of rising pH due to carbon dioxide outgassing. In the Spa & Therapy Operations section, when discussing pH, there is a discussion of aeration and carbon dioxide outgassing causing the pH to rise (and it says the TA decreases which is incorrect; the TA only drops when acid is added as acid lowers both pH and TA). However, even in this discussion it is not made clear that this effect can be reduced by lowering the TA level and supplementing pH buffering with a different non-carbonate pH buffer such as borates.

Net pH of Hypochlorite Sources of Chlorine
Hypochlorite sources of chlorine (bleach, chlorinating liquid, Cal-Hypo, lithium hypochlorite) are close to pH neutral when accounting for chlorine usage/consumption, except for the excess lye in some bleach and chlorinating liquid. This is described technically in this post. 6% Clorox Regular bleach has a very small amount of excess lye in it (pH 11.9 which implies 0.06% excess lye) so is very close to pH neutral when accounting for chlorine usage/consumption. Off-brand Ultra bleaches have a fairly high amount of excess lye (pH 12.5 or higher and 0.25% excess lye or higher). Chlorinating liquid varies, though even the best has a moderate amount of excess lye. Nevertheless, 12.5% chlorinating liquid with a pH of 12.5 and 0.25% excess lye (such as found here) results in a pH rise of around 0.1 unit per month assuming 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage (so quite manageable). Chlorinating liquid closer to a pH of 13.0 has around 0.8% excess lye so over 3 times the pH rise rate or nearly 0.1 unit per week. Except for the high excess lye cases, the bulk of actual pH rise is usually due to carbon dioxide outgassing.

The handbook is misleading in terms of the net pH of disinfectants since only the effect on pH of addition of the disinfectant is discussed. There is no discussion about how chlorine consumption/usage is acidic which makes the net pH of most hypochlorite sources of chlorine closer to pH neutral and makes Dichlor net acidic. The only net pH rise over time from hypochlorite sources of chlorine comes from any "excess lye" in them, which is minimal in 6% Clorox Bleach and is low in some chlorinating liquid (though is higher in other chlorinating liquid and in many off-brand bleaches).

True Cost of Different Chlorine Sources
Trichlor is not the least expensive source of chlorine when accounting for pH adjustment as described in this post. Bleach is often the least expensive source though Cal-Hypo and chlorinating liquid are sometimes close, though this varies a lot by region. Many people just look at the % Available Chlorine thinking that a higher number is a better value, but this is just a weight % of available chlorine and the price per pound of chlorinating liquid and bleach are very low (since it's mostly water) -- it is the price per increase in Free Chlorine (FC) that is what matters.

The handbook does not discuss the costs of chlorine sources (except noting that lithium hypochlorite has a relatively high cost) nor the costs of pH adjustment for some of these sources.

Breakpoint Chlorination
The 10x rule for breakpoint chlorination is wrong and only now some industry people are starting to address this as described here and here, though they are still only accounting for the mistake of not considering that combined chlorine already used up a chlorine atom in combining with ammonia and they are not yet considering that there is still a factor of 5 error in their approach since the units used to derive the 10x rule come from chlorine (measured in ppm Cl2) oxidation of ammonia (measured in ppm N) whereas combined chlorine is measured in the same units as chlorine (i.e. ppm Cl2) where the Cl2 units are 5 times higher than the N units (that's the molecular weight ratio between the two). The oxidation of a combined chlorine that is monochlorourea (i.e. chlorine combined with urea) may require 3x, but that still far from 10x. There also isn't any getting "stuck" -- one can just add more chlorine. When one has persistent CC, it is not due to getting "stuck" but from compounds that do not oxidize as quickly. More technical details about this are described in this post.

The handbook has a newer breakpoint chlorination rule, but it is still a "10x" rule, though uses a target FC as 10x of the CC rather than using an incrementally added 10x amount. It incorrectly states that adding less than the breakpoint calculated amount may not achieve breakpoint, not recognizing that the 10x rule is wrong when starting with CC (it's correct when starting with ammonia measured in ppm N units).

Shocking a Pool
In a residential pool with typically low bather load, it is not necessary to shock the pool regularly if the appropriate FC/CYA ratio is consistently maintained. Oxidation of bather waste occurs continuously and the Combined Chlorine (CC) is usually <= 0.5 ppm, often <= 0.2 ppm. Shocking is normally done in pools that use stabilized chlorine because their CYA climbs making the chlorine less effective so they need to shock to accelerate the oxidation of bather waste (which is slower due to lower active chlorine concentration) and to kill nascent algae growth. Shocking should only be done if there is an unusual event such as very high bather load, vomit, urine, diarrhea, dead animal, etc. or if the CC > 0.5 ppm (usually from excessive pollen or other organic matter that has entered the pool). As noted above under breakpoint chlorination, nothing gets "stuck" by not shocking the pool; shocking merely increases the active chlorine level to accelerate the rate of oxidation (and sanitation). So long as there is measurable FC, there is oxidation and sanitation occurring though possibly at a slower rate depending on the FC/CYA ratio. Indoor pools (even residential ones with low bather load) are more likely to get persistent CC and usually supplemental oxidation (UV, ozone, non-chlorine shock, enzymes) is needed to address this problem. It is possible that the UV in sunlight helps to prevent CC buildup in outdoor pools and is usually enough, along with normal active chlorine levels, to prevent significant CC in residential outdoor pools.

The handbook talks about shocking as an oxidation process to remove contaminants, but does not prescribe a specific schedule.

Attaining pH Stability, especially for SWG pools
On this forum, we have figured out, through both theory and experiments and actual usage in real pools (and spas), how to make the pH nearly stable in most pools, including those using saltwater chlorine generators (SWGs). We did this in SWG pools not only by lowering the TA level, but also by targeting a higher CYA level of 80 ppm and by using 50 ppm Borates to reduce chlorine demand and let one turn-down the SWG on-time. We also figured out how 50 ppm Borates helps to prevent scaling in salt cells and possibly reduce the "white stuff" effect when using The Liquidator.

The handbook does not talk about the specific challenges of pH rise in SWG pools, nor the solutions for this described above (lower TA, higher CYA, use of Borates).

High Chlorine Demand and Chlorine "Lock"
We figured out the mystery of unusually high chlorine demand, particularly upon spring opening after a pool has been "let go", even if the water is clear. Some bacteria can convert CYA into ammonia which creates a huge chlorine demand that can be calculated by measurements as described in this post. For every 10 ppm CYA that is degraded, it produces around 3 ppm ammonia that can take up to 30 ppm FC cumulatively added to eliminate. My personal experience of this effect is described in this thread. The myths of "chlorine lock" either from high CYA levels or from this conversion of CYA into ammonia are no longer mysteries, but known effects that can be understood, measured, and readily dealt with due to our increased knowledge.

The handbook does not talk about this particular problem of opening a pool to unusually high chlorine demand from bacterial conversion of CYA to ammonia.

Grocery/Hardware Store vs. Pool Store Chemical Equivalents
We know that Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda is identical to most pH Up products (both are sodium carbonate) and that Arm & Hammer Baking Soda is identical to Alkalinity Up products (both are sodium bicarbonate) and that 20 Mule Team Borax can be used to raise the pH with half the rise in TA and that Dowflake or Peladow or Tetra (de-icers) are identical to Calcium Hardness Increaser products (both are calcium chloride, though may be anhydrous vs. dihydrate), and that 6% Clorox Regular bleach has the lowest amount of excess lye in it resulting in a lower net pH rise over time than any chlorinating liquid from a pool store. More details on these products is in this post.

The handbook does not talk about this topic.

Procedures for Lowering TA
There is also the acid column or slug method myth that was discredited in this paper. It's not that the method doesn't work at all, since the amount of TA lowering is solely dependent on the amount of acid you add and not how you add it, but rather that it is not the safest method (pooling acid in one area can damage plaster/vinyl surfaces) nor the most efficient (it can take longer for the pH to recover in time for you to add more acid to lower the TA some more). The efficient procedure for lowering TA (especially lowering the TA a lot) is described in this post and in the Pool School Lower Total Alkalinity procedure. The procedure works because the outgassing of carbon dioxide is accelerated at lower pH as shown in this chart.

The handbook only says to add acid to lower the TA and does not discuss more efficient ways of lowering it via lowering the pH and increasing aeration (along with the acid addition).

Phosphate Levels and Algae Control by Chlorine
There is a myth of not being able to control algae by chlorine alone and that high phosphate levels must be lowered. Though phosphate levels do influence the rate of algae growth, phosphate removers only lower orthophosphate, not organic phosphates, so may not always completely stop algae growth and nitrates are also a limiting growth factor. Phosphate removers should be seen in the same vein as algicides that inhibit algae, but may not prevent it completely. Chlorine alone can be used to control algae if the FC/CYA ratio is above minimum levels (see chlorine/CYA chart described above).

The handbook does not promote the use of phosphate removers, though does note that phosphates and nitrates are nutrients required for algae growth, but also notes the many different sources of phosphates (including storage in algae themselves). Various algicides are discussed with various pros and cons. The handbook notes that routine superchlorination and the use of an algicide on a maintenance basis are useful tools in the prevention of algae. However, there is no discussion of how chlorine alone, using a sufficient FC/CYA ratio, can prevent algae growth, though it is noted that it is very important that disinfectant residuals be maintained at all times to prevent the growth of algae.

pH Effect on Chlorine When CYA is Present
The presence of CYA acts as an active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) buffer making it much less susceptible to change at different pH. This is described in this post where one can see the traditional pH vs. chlorine graph and the true graph when CYA is present (this latter graph is not taught and it also shows the significantly lowered active chlorine level when CYA is present). When there is no CYA, going from a pH of 7.5 to 8.0 lowers the hypochlorous acid level by about 53% (from 1.45 to 0.69 ppm with 3 ppm FC), but with 30 ppm CYA it is only lowered by about 14% (from 0.042 to 0.036 ppm with 3 ppm FC).

The handbook only shows a traditional chart of hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion vs. pH and does not show the effect of CYA as described above.

CYA Protection of Chlorine from Sunlight
CYA protects chlorine from degradation from the UV in sunlight in two different ways. At lower CYA levels, the main effect is having most of the chlorine bound to CYA where it degrades much more slowly. At higher CYA levels, especially noticed from 60-80 ppm, the CYA may shield lower depths from UV such that higher CYA levels at 70-80 ppm, even with correspondingly higher FC levels to keep the FC/CYA ratio constant, result in lower absolute chlorine loss. This is the main reason to have a high CYA level for outdoor SWG pools in order to reduce chlorine usage so that the SWG on-time can be lowered which results in a slower rate of pH rise (possibly due to less aeration and less undissolved chlorine gas outgassing).

Commercial/public pools with moderate-to-high bather loads usually do not see any benefit of saved chlorine usage above a CYA level of 20-30 ppm, but this is primarily because most of the chlorine usage at these CYA levels is from bather load (oxidation of bather waste) so higher CYA levels would not result in a noticeable benefit. This is not the case with residential pools which typically have low bather loads such that degradation of chlorine by the UV in sunlight is a significant factor.

The handbook does not discuss the varying apparent protection of CYA as a function of bather load.

CYA and Indoor Pools and Any Spas
Current industry recommendations and many state regulations say to not use any CYA in indoor pools or in any spas (at least commercial/public, though the most common chlorine source used in residential spas is Dichlor-only). This may be resulting in faster oxidation of swimsuits, skin and hair, faster corrosion, and higher levels of very irritating and volatile nitrogen trichloride as described in this post. Too much CYA is also a problem as the rate of oxidation is slowed too much so monochloramine and dichloramine can build up. 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA for indoor pools may be a reasonable sweet spot for sufficient, but not too high, oxidation rates while lowering nitrogen trichloride production.

The handbook does not discuss how CYA moderates chlorine's strength in ways as described above, though it does discuss (for spas) how dosing too much disinfectant may form more potentially toxic disinfection byproducts and may make bleaching of swimsuits and hair more likely.

Turnover Rate and Law of Dilution
[EDIT] NOTE: The 2014 edition of the handbook corrected the percentages to no longer use the inappropriate Gage and Bidwell Law of Dilution. [END-EDIT]

The theoretical best-case model for continuous dilution of water has in one turnover all but e-1=0.368 or 37% of the water circulated, so 63% goes through the filter. In two turnovers this is all but e-2=0.135 or 14%, for three turnovers e-3=0.0497 or 5%, for four turnovers e-4=0.0183 or 2%. There is a model often quoted in the pool/spa industry called the Gage and Bidwell Law of Dilution that is misapplied to describe the amount of water seen by the filter. In fact, as described on PDF page 10 (paper page 1195) in this 1926 paper, this model is one where dirt or other contamination is introduced by bathers once a day (which in itself isn't very realistic) and the calculation is the percent clarification of pool water after equilibrium (steady-state) is obtained relative to the amount added per day. With this model, one turnover has 42% clarification so one pound of contamination per day would in the steady-state of one turnover per day have 0.58 pounds still in the water. With two turnovers, there is 84% clarification or 16% of the daily added amount left in the water. With three turnovers, there is 95% clarification or 5% left in the water. With four turnovers, there is 98% clarification or 2% left in the water. These clarification percentages are not the amount of water that "sees the filter" in one day. The reason the clarification percentages are lower than the percentages of water seen by the filter is that the model assumes regular introduction of additional contaminants each day and is a percentage of relative clarification, not the amount of water actually filtered per day.

The handbook incorrectly uses the Gage and Bidwell Law of Dilution clarification percentages as a percentage of unfiltered water.
[EDIT] NOTE: The 2014 edition of the handbook no longer uses the incorrect Gage and Bidwell Law of Dilution percentages. [END-EDIT]


Acknowledgement and Further Info
Much of this knowledge (at a high level) did not come from me or from this forum's outstanding members, though some has (I mostly contribute to the explanations using fundamental chemistry while many others contribute a wide variety of experience and technical knowledge in many areas). Ben Powell, who managed commercial and public pools, started PoolSolutions and The PoolForum and deserves a lot of credit for getting to the truth about many pool issues as well as helping thousands of pool owners. The rest of us are just following in his footsteps, extending and expanding the knowledge.

For most of us on this forum, we maintain our pools using bleach or chlorinating liquid alone (or as the primary source of chlorine, unless an SWG is used) with perhaps a small amount of acid needed. That's it -- no algicides, no phosphate removers, no clarifiers or floculants, no regular shocking. In my own 16,000 gallon pool shown here and here, I only use around 1 ppm FC per day of 12.5% chlorinating liquid I get from my local pool store (they reuse the bottles, which is better than recycling) and even with a small amount of acid every month or so, it's around $15 per month in chemical costs (except for annual refreshing of calcium, some CYA and now borates after rain dilution over the winter). I have a mostly opaque electric safety cover, which helps keep the chlorine usage low, but the pool is used 1-2 hours every day during the week and longer on weekends. Oh, and did I mention that my pool has typically had 2000-3000 ppb and higher phosphates and averages 88F temperature yet does not get algae? Most people on this forum have similar experiences and many have had bad experiences with pool stores and pool services where it really isn't their fault because they are simply not taught the whole truth from manufacturers and industry courses. There are over 20,000 members at The PoolForum (which unfortunately is closed to new membership [EDIT] it is now open to membership, but reports around 16,000 members [END-EDIT]) and over 10,000 members here at Trouble Free Pool (and growing rapidly [EDIT] now over 72,000 [END-EDIT]) where we help each other out because we unfortunately do not get this kind of help from many (but not all) pool stores, though that will hopefully start to change as industry education improves.

Richard
  • Wow
Reactions: KJB1

1st Time New Pool Owner ( Long time hot tub owner ) …GREEEEN 🤮

Hey Gang , glad I found this forum . So we bought a house with a 18x36 pool in the winter , so we have no idea how they closed it or who closed it. Few important parts were lying in the grass even , that we were lucky we found .
3 weeks ago my neighbour came over and helped pull the cover off and show us how the pumps and filters work . After the cover came off , we saw the pool was greener than antifreeze . All he did was do a test with the test strips , showed me the results , then proceeded to dump half a bucket of 70% calypso chlorine granules . He said just watch the chlorine and keep pucks in the skimmer and should clear up in a week.
Waited 2-3 days and took the water in for testing. They said the chlorine was at 2-3 , and couple other things were low like alkalinity and PH . Sold me some algicide, said pour that in , wait 12 hours , then shock it with half a bucket 4kg . Scrub the walls and bottom as much as I could . Then they sold me a “ crystal stick” , throw that in the skimmer , wait for 24 hours then backwash . They advised keep the chlorine at 10 in a week it should be clear . Almost 3 weeks in , still green as green can be. Only thing we notice is some algae is landing on the white stairs , so we think it’s dying. I think my first mistake , was we should have balanced it before my neighbour poured that cholorine shock in . With hot tubs , I know you balance ph, alkalinity then add the dichlor. I’m wondering if there is any saving it with a 2 1/2 month pool season left ? Thanks for any advice and teaching me to care for a pool . 578801A0-23F1-424E-807C-C730B49929BD.jpeg
  • Wow
Reactions: KJB1

Too much chlorine?

Hi! We started the TFP method just shy of 3 weeks ago. We had a pretty decent algae bloom (we have had the pool since September & had been using Leslie’s to balance the water), so started with a slam. I believe we did it correctly, and stopped doing the frequent checks/additions when it dropped less than 0.5 two nights in a row.

My question is: I am having to test/add about 10 cups of liquid chlorine every day. Is that at all normal? It has been very hot & very sunny these 3 weeks. My CYA was 35 to start, but I raised it to 50 to see if it would help. If that IS normal, that is great. But, if I go 1 day without adding chlorine my level drops to unreadable.

Any feedback/suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I’m still learning!

(I think it will tag, but I have a 13,000 above ground pool & live just north of Houston, Tx)
  • Like
Reactions: SSharp

Cya at 50, still losing 3-5ppm fc-water clear

Hey guys! I’m at a loss here and was hoping you all could help. I’ve been trying this LC method for 2 years now and I can’t seem to get it right. Last year, I kept my cya between 30-40 and went through gallons and gallons of LC weekly because it dropped so much during the day. This year I have upped my cya to 50 and still can’t seem to maintain my fc. This year, after adding enough stabilizer to get my cya to 30-40, I began using pucks in the chlorinator and then adding LC in the evening. That seemed to keep everything stable and I was only losing about 1.5-2 ppm a day in fc. A couple of days ago, when cya reached 50, I stopped using pucks and I’m only using LC and it’s back to losing 3-5ppm a day in fc. Last night it was at 8ppm and this morning I’ve already lost 2 ppm. I am in direct sunlight all day long, until 6:30-7pm. Water is crystal clear. So my question is, should I up my cya to 60??? I’m scared to do so in case I get algae and have to slam, but I just don’t know what else to do. I don’t want to give up on this method!! After testing this morning, I’ve added enough LC to bring it back up to 8ppm and then put 2 pucks in the chlorinator 🤦🏻‍♀️
  • Like
Reactions: reggiehammond

36 x 18 Vinyl on Long Island - Help a New Member - Taylor K-2006C!

My name is Chris, and my wife and I live on Long Island, NY. I've spent the past two summers reading posts every now and then, but it is finally time to join.

We have a 36 x 18 vinyl in-ground pool w/ steps (~26k gallons based on a calculator) that was built in '85 and the Hayward DE filter, Hayward 1.5 HP pump , SaniKing Perform-Max (3" slow tab TriChlor) dispenser, are probably from 2005+. We use a Dolphin Premiere robot to clean once or twice a week. We technically have a second pump for a basic leaf cleaner, but I do not use it after recommendations to use an electric bot instead.

We bought the house at the end of 2019, but since it was a foreclosure the pool was unused for many years. After having the pool inspected in November 2019, my wife and I spent a good two months in the spring of 2020 cleaning it out. It was dark and full of debris. We removed 11 landscaping bags worth of leaves. Plus, backwashing multiple times a day for well over a week. If there had been a body, I would not have been surprised.

My wife said let's just drain it, I said no, we are going to clean it out and "earn it." My avatar shows the before/after in 2020. In the end, I am glad we did so much work, I learned a lot about the system. Cleaning the DE filter myself was a feat in itself.

The past two summers have been great overall and our extended family and friends love it. Eventually we will get a heater and switch to salt water.

I recently put in a WaterGuru Sense to send daily reports on FC, pH and temperature, however, it seemed lower than what I was getting with a basic test kit, or what Leslie's AccuBlue report was saying. So, after reading the forums I decided to get a Taylor K-2006C. I have done a test today, all results within the same hour and area of the pool (well, WG is from the skimmer), but I tested the water at the same end/side of the pool. Below the pics below are the test results. I'd love some advice as I think the FC from the Taylor kit is way off.

Spring 2020 - Earning it
IMG_3870.jpeg

Summer 2021 - (Tree on the right is no longer there and the grass is a lot greener now)
B3B6153A-8039-42D1-8D55-334047579171.jpg

Spring 2022 - LED light w/ new wiring
IMG_2516.jpeg


I'd love any suggestions as the results do not completely match:

WG
FC = 3.5
pH = 7.0
Flow = Normal (although often it says low. I've been trying to change how the cassette is positioned, which helps)

Leslie's AccuBlue
FC = 3.87
TC = 3.87
pH = 7.4
TA = 86
CH = 85 (They say I need 55 lbs 2 oz of their Hardness Plus, but they are out in store)
CYA = 46
Iron = 0
Copper = 0
Phosphates = 7 (It was 139 a few days ago, but I treated it with Leslie's No Phos)
TDS = 600

Taylor K-2006C -> First time used, brand new
FC = 5 (Took about 25 drops of r-0871 to be completely clear...did I do it wrong?)
CC = 0.04
pH = 7.3
TA = 80
CH = 80
CYA = 33
  • Love
Reactions: Newdude

Low Cya and high Fc

We had a VSP put in about 2 weeks ago but when our pool guy did it, between storms and his busy schedule, the pool wasn't circulated for about 4.5 days. Of course the water has been cloudy since then. Before finding tfp I was only using the test strips.

They have consistently been showing very low Cya but higher free chlorine. After adding 4 lbs stabalizer( his recommendation) the water has gotten clearer but it isn't crystal clear yet. The levels are still the same according to the test strips.

My 2006c water tester is scheduled to be delivered today so I can properly test and do this myself going forward. Is there anything i should do to get ready? I have liquid chlorine on hand ready to slam. Should i turn off the SWG? I will post the test results as soon as I can.

Thanks for any advice

Tyrel
Omaha,NE
  • Like
Reactions: Snoobug

What a difference

Hello all,
So glad I found this site. I'm less than 72 hours in on my SLAM and boy what a difference. The two pics below show what my pool looked like on Monday and what it looks like today (Thursday). I started SLAMming Monday night and hopefully my OCLT will come back good tomorrow and I can exit SLAM. I currently meet the other two requirements.

Thanks for the tips and this site. Bonus is that I now have a cool and robust testing kit.

P.S. Please excuse the area around the pool. It was just installed last month and we still have work to do.
Screenshot_20220623-142103_Ring.jpg
Screenshot_20220623-142127_Ring.jpg

Another pool store vs home testing thread

Out of curiosity I took a sample to Leslie's today to compare their "AccuBlue" machine to my own tests using the TF-100 (plus a digital pH meter). Collected a large sample and split it in half, tested half myself, filled a sample bottle with the other half and took it to the Leslie's down the street immediately after my tests. I've been working to get my TA down for the last couple weeks (acid, aerate, repeat), so I've been testing a lot, and the numbers have all been very consistent with the exception of the pH ups and downs and the slowly dropping TA. So, enough rambling, on to the results:
FC - Leslie's AccuBlue - 7.21 TF100 - 6.5 (close enough, I guess?)
CC - Leslie's Accublue - 0.00 TF100 - 0 (they actually report total chlorine instead, so FC+CC, but they reported the same exact number for both)
pH - Leslie's AccuBlue - 8 TF100 - 7.4 (I expected they'd at least get the pH correct, but it was way off, and I tested pH with both my digital meter and with the K-1000, which both agreed with each other)
TA - Leslie's AccuBlue - 10 TF100 - 100 (I've been slowly dropping TA which was at 160 a couple weeks ago, they suggested I raise it!)
CH - Leslie's AccuBlue - 493 TF100 - 825 (I wish my CH was only 493, I've been debating doing a partial drain and fill using a portable water softener to get my CH lower)
CYA - Leslie's AccuBlue - 53 TF100 - 50 (This one is always the one I have the least confidence in testing at home, so not sure what to say about it matching questionable results)
Copper - Leslies AccuBlue - 0.3 TF100 - don't test (Employee said all of the tests are showing that lately, and to ignore it as it's probably not true. Lol, way to give customers confidence in your tests!)
Phosphates - Leslie's AccuBlue - 1,970 TF100 - don't test (Employee made a big deal about this, of course)

So, I guess to anyone wondering about the AccuBlue system, I wouldn't use any of the results for anything, ever. I'm half tempted to take a sample to a different store, or the same store in a few days, and see how different they are. Also half tempted to order a Taylor phosphate test kit just out of curiosity, even though I don't really care about my phosphate levels.

Also worth noting that there was a guy in front of me having his water tested, and the employee asked him several times if he'd recently drained and refilled his pool. Guy said no, but his results were super low TA and CH, and almost zero CYA. Apparently his CYA and CH were fine 2 weeks ago, and I know that neither of those just disappear, so it seemed really odd to me.
  • Like
Reactions: willygee

UGH!!! My pool is infested ...

IMG_5752.jpg

It started out with small patch of pink flamingo and I was ok with that because I was keeping my levels right where the pool store told me to and I gave it a good brushing....then all of sudden it turned into a pack of llamas!?!?! I used my test strips and all the colors say "OK" .... what can I do?? Should I use some floc?? The pool store suggested I use a product call "Alpaca Annihilator Plus" which is specially designed for salt water pools, but I'm a little hesitant...it's like $50 for an 8oz bottle....

What would you do?? Maybe I should just drain the pool and start over.....

TIA

New guy's first question

Ok, I'm sort of lost. A lot of chem talk. A whole lot of good information to absorb. I'm posting some new guy thoughts and a few questions that perhaps should be different threads? I will start a SWG thread regarding one such question. If I am doing something procedurally wrong, please let me know.

It seems from reading some of the threads and posts, I have been lucky to have what little success I did have. I have been throwing money away using chemicals I don't need and perhaps stressing my equipment. I wouold appreciate any ideas or comments.

So, so far I gleaned the following:
  1. Test kit- I'm going to order the recommended test kit, upping my game and buying the big boy kit, having used the little paper things for 15 years it seems past due.
  2. Test often and always
  3. Use liquid chlorine and not tabs
  4. I should NOT ignore my CYA.
  5. Perhaps switch to salt ( that might be my own obsession)
  6. Keep reading the threads
My CYA is always very low as are my ph and alkalinity. I use soda ash on occasion and always find I'm adding baking soda (from BJ's)
  • Love
Reactions: Newdude

CYA/Chlorine - Angry pool store guy

I went to the pool store today with two objectives. I wanted to test my CYA and buy some acid. "Why don't you test the CYA yourself?," you ask. A few reasons actually... That particular test is the least fun one to do because it doesn't require my auto stirrer. I love my Taylor auto stirrer! So fun! I also have trouble convincing myself when I can no longer see the black dot. Those of you who test your own CYA know EXACTLY what I mean. As I needed get some acid anyway, I figured I would have the pool store test my water for free. Instead of getting some test results and basic chemicals, I got a whole lot of drama!

After the pool store guy tested my water and recognized my chlorine level was low, he asked me what I had my chlorinator set to. I didn't even want to talk about chlorine levels. I already knew it was low when I tested it earlier with my cool auto stirrer! I was literally going to home and add chlorine and acid. Anyway... "Here we go," I thought to myself as I calmly stated, "actually I'm just using liquid chlorine right now." I guess the words "liquid chlorine" triggered the pool store guy because he proceeded to lecture me about how bad liquid chlorine is for my pool. He went so far as to claim that liquid chlorine will raise my TDS levels to the point that the high TDS will render "all the chemicals in my pool ineffective." "We don't even sell liquid chlorine here because we cannot in good conscience recommend it," he exclaimed. Although I wasn't there for an argument, the pool store guy's aggressive nature made me feel compelled to explain myself. I calmly argued that I use mostly liquid chlorine and only use pucks to add CYA when it gets low. I explained that 100% use of pucks previously raised my CYA to up over 100ppm. I argued (very unsuccessfully) that the higher the CYA, the higher the chlorine has to be to maintain its effectiveness. I also explained that the only time I've ever had algae in my pool was when my CYA was over 100ppm and I was maintaining chlorine in the 2-4ppm. The pool store guy angrily responded by stating that CYA up to 200 ppm is completely fine and that his 30 years of experience proves him to be correct. He said TDS levels were much more important. He made a scene in the store, threw my test results on the floor, and said I was managing my pool completely backwards. He yelled, "You're managing your pool all backwards my friend!" Why do people call you their friend when they're trying to insult you? Pool store guys aren't my friends! Anyway, my "friend" then refused to sell me the chemicals I came in to buy. He was so frustrated that he passed me off to a co-worker to ring up the chemicals because he, "just couldn't deal with it." I didn't even want to get into a debate. I just wanted to see what my CYA was, buy some acid, and pick up some Torchy's Tacos next door. Lesson learned. Test your water yourself and don't over analyze the black dot!

Ok, so I know pool stores do not follow the TFP method. But are they now aggressively claiming that the method is flat out wrong and causing harm to your pool!? Is the industry angry at the TFP method because it reduces demand for profitable chemicals that aren't needed? Is this pool store guy so defensive because deep down he knows I'm right? Or is this guy just a bad employee who has happened to have been trained wrong for 30 years? Why is this CYA/Chlorine relationship so divisive in the industry? It's based on science, factual studies, and demonstrated results. I've had no algae, no need to SLAM, and no need to drain my pool for over four years now. Outside of politics, I've never seen so called "experts" deny factual information to such an extent. What is happening!?

3 weeks of SLAM, still cloudy :(

3 weeks of notes to go over, exhausted from this pool - will try to remember all relevant info. Seems like info overkill, but this seems like a pretty detailed oriented community. Here goes:

- Intex 20’ round with sand filter pump
- used to take down the old 18’ intex with inflatable ring every fall. Was a hassle. Wanted to try to leave the new one up, even through New England winter. Drained to below holes, stored hoses and pumps inside for winter. Hopes for best.
- left uncovered over winter, underneath several oaks. Not smart. Scooped best I could through November. Scooped out a freshly dead squirrel one day. Gross.
- pool was brown/black at start of SLAM in late May
- initially ran just my old cartridge pump from lid 18’ intex for fear of choking sand filter to death.
- guesstimated water volume at 4800gal
- scooped and scooped and scooped and then scooped some more for days and days.
- gallons upon gallons of bleach. Water improved from black to brown to tan to cloudy white to cloudy blue. scooped some more
- filled from approx 4800gal to 7400gal, hooked up sand filter pump
- slow progress for a week. Forgot I should brush too
- brushed for days and days. Multiple times a day. Ran both pumps. Attached photo shows cartridge pump with extra long hose I weighted down to try and get it to suck the bad stuff off bottom
- I have gone through LOTS of r0871 reagent.
- CC is consistently low, below 0.5ppm
- PoolMath has been asking for FC in neighborhood of 12 to 15 depending on water level and CYA amount. CYA is currently around 30 after fresh water add from 4800 to 7400gal. Was around 50 before. That test is sketchy. Not impressed. My wife and I see black dots at different levels. But confident now it’s 30 or lower.
- FC during day plummets during day presumably with low CYA and sun exposure. Adding around 6cups of 10% to keep at level, though during the week - tough to do every hour or two unless this pool becomes my full time job.
-pH tough to read accurately with super high FC. Using other kit with chlorine neutralizer, seems to be around 7.5
-CH is super low at 30. Vinyl pool though, does it matter?
-TA is 100 after adding a couple cups of baking soda yesterday

Planning to spend weekend brushing and brushing some more. Was encouraged yesterday as it seemed I could see more of the brush head below water surface, but discouraged this morning that some cloudiness has returned. I could also just be imagining things at this point. I see this pool in my sleep it seems.

Sand has been deep cleaned, twice. Second time very effectively. That was good. Sand was gross. Hopefully that will help. Secondary cartridge filter doesn’t clog as quickly anymore, and with CC being so consistently low - I’m wondering if this cloudiness is something different and if it will ever clean up with current method.

I need some expert suggestions! :)

FC = 11.5
CC < 0.5
pH = unreliable at FC >10, but I think it’s 7.5
TA=100
CH = 30
Bleach = endless application of 10%
Shoulders = tired
patience = low
Using Taylor K2006 kit to help document my saga.

Thanks

Attachments

  • D383F263-E9A9-49F2-AA70-C7E59F5D7F1E.jpeg
    D383F263-E9A9-49F2-AA70-C7E59F5D7F1E.jpeg
    564.9 KB · Views: 124
  • 656FCD93-00D4-4799-805D-682E2F2F189E.jpeg
    656FCD93-00D4-4799-805D-682E2F2F189E.jpeg
    610.6 KB · Views: 129
  • Like
Reactions: Staceyleah22

Help! with pool plaster quartz discoloration mystery, it's so weird! Please help!

For all you pool experts that like a challenging puzzle

Last summer (2016) our pool was a little over a year old when the plaster quartz (QuartzScapes) started getting dark gray discoloration/staining/mottling. Our water was crystal clear and our chemicals were perfect (BBB & Taylor test kit) except the calcium kept rising which we assumed was from the new plaster.

The pool was plastered spring 2015 and the temp was 105 degrees F. They did not tent the pool or run misters to cool down the plaster. I have read that plaster contractors sometimes add extra calcium to speed up the hardening but should only do it when it is cold out.

Here's the real mystery:
The gray mottling was everywhere except:
- the Baja shelf was completely clear of any mottling and looked perfect.
- And there was a path or strip about 18" wide down the middle of the pool from the shallow end to the deep end that was completely free of the staining/discoloration.
Also, the mottling or staining was much worse in the spa than anywhere else in the pool.

We tried every test we could find for staining:
-Black algae or other organic cause, negative.
-Metals, negative
-Scale, negative
-Marks from black pool vacuum wheels, negative

We finally decided it was a bad case of plaster mottling and contacted the plaster contractor. I was ready for a big battle, but their customer service has been great. They agreed it was not our chemicals. They also did not know why the calcium levels kept going up. They couldn't figure out what was causing the mottling but agreed to drain the pool, and sand/polish the entire surface. We were happy they wanted to do that rather than an acid wash which I felt would make it worse. They did insist after sanding it to do a VERY light acid wash to rinse away the powder from sanding.

After the sanding, the pool plaster looks great. We could still see the strip down the middle where had been clear of any mottling as it was now slightly bluer, like it had more blue quartz in it but it isn't too noticeable so we were okay with it.

My concern with their approach is that they are not finding the root cause of the problem. Sanding only removes the discoloration, but without knowing what caused it in the first place, there's no way to know if it will happen again or how to prevent it.

Then the HUGE AH Ha moment came. When they started refilling the pool, they put the hose over the side of the pool at the shallow end, and the water ran from the shallow end straight down the middle of the pool to the deep end in the EXACT same path or strip of pool floor where there had been NO mottling, and it was the exact same ~18" wide path. We moved the hose around a bit and no matter where the hose was, the water gravitated to that exact path so it is obviously slightly dipped down the center causing the water to follow that path every time. So that strip of plaster had much colder water running down it for hours when they first filled the pool after the original plaster job.

Our second ah ha moment came when we remembered that when they originally filled the pool after plastering, they put one of the the hoses on the baja shelf, so the Baja shelf also had much colder water constantly running over it for many hours and the Baja shelf also had NO mottling/discoloring.

Our third ah ha moment came when my spouse remembered that the spa was filled last so its plaster was in the hot blazing sun for the longest of anywhere in the pool, and the spa had the worse mottling of the whole pool.

So we are surmising that the cold hose water (our tap water runs cold even in the summer unlike some other AZ areas) on the Baja shelf and the strip down the middle of the pool kept plaster cooler for several hours causing the plaster to cure a little slower in those areas than the rest of the pool plaster.

So knowing what we know, what does it all mean for the future of our plaster? Does this mean the plaster was allowed to cure too fast in the heat and they should have tented/shaded the plaster and/or used misters to lower the temperatures? I know it got hot very fast that spring-- we had been having a cool spring, just 15 days earlier the high had been in the 70s. And what's causing the calcium to rise? Is it leaching out causing the mottling? After they filled the pool after sanding it, the calcium was 300 and now a week later it is up to 400.

Please help me with this mystery.
  • Like
Reactions: Staceyleah22

  • Locked
Extended Test Kit Directions

Extended Test Kit Directions

These directions are for use with test kits based on Taylor chemistry, such as the TF-100 from TFTestKits.net, the Taylor K-2006, and the Leslie's Chlorine FAS-DPD Service Test Kit, and also for a few other tests that are commonly recommended here at TFP. Over the years we have found the Taylor chemistry to be the most reliable and precise available (unless you spend a lot of money on fancy lab equipment).

For normal day to day use of the test kit, it is best to follow the directions that come with the test kit. These directions are much more detailed and attempt to list all of the possible special situations and complications that can arise. This extra information can be very helpful, it can also be overwhelming.

If you have never used a test kit before, start out with the directions that came with your kit. Then, if you are having problems, come here to find out all the details. These directions can also be handy if you are already familiar with the normal operation of the test kit and want to learn all of the details and special cases.



Proper Storage

Test kit reagents should be stored in a cool dark place. It is important that you protect them from freezing, avoid extended periods in direct sunlight, avoid extended periods at high temperatures, and minimize the number of large temperature swings they are exposed to. You don't want to store reagents in the refrigerator and then take them out each time you want to test because that would be a large temperature swing. You also don't want to store them in a garden shed because it will heat up to too high a temperature during the day in the summer and can get too cold at night in the winter, early spring, and late fall. Storing reagents inside a cabinet in a heated and air conditioned house is ideal.

Taylor recommends replacing all reagents each year. We have found that when they are stored properly reagents will last several years. Using reagents over several years requires that you watch for the possibility that they have gone bad. There are comments below on each of the reagents that tend to go bad with age suggesting ways you can tell when they have spoiled.

Hydroxyl based advanced oxidation by Clear Comfort CCW100

My neighbor just had this system installed. I checked his water chemistry using my Taylor kit and obtained some strange results. His pool is plaster, in ground, 10,000 gallons. He unfortunately has been using stabilzed chlorine tablets where the manual said not to. His FC was off the wall..after 50 titration drops done twice I stopped titration.CYA greater than 100ppm, alkalinity test went from green to yellow (not red) at about 10 drops (agents are fresh and work perfectly on my pool).
Question: Does this hydroxyl system affect accurate free chlorine and alkalinity test?
  • Wow
Reactions: Flying Tivo

  • Locked
Warning About Walmart Liquid Chlorine

Hi All,
I just want to share my experience with you in hopes that it will prevent someone else from going through this hassle...
I have been a (mostly silent) member of this forum for many years and I come back each spring to refresh my knowledge and keep updated on swimming pool care. I have been managing our pool's chemistry for almost 17 years and I started using the SLAM/Bleach method about eight years ago.
This spring, I noticed that my local Walmart had started selling Pool Essentials (brand) Liquid Chlorine (10% Sodium Hypochlorite) for a really good price. I decided to try it and was delighted with the results. I used it to slam my pool and tested carefully, every day, to get my chemistry just right. My pool was pristine, sparkling and balanced as of three weeks ago. Then, suddenly, about a week later, I noticed some algae starting along the walls and steps. We've had quite a lot of rain down here so I attributed it to an alkaline rain. I tested, meticulously, and treated with acid and chlorine. Nothing seemed to change.
We were getting ready to leave town for 12 days and I had promised our house-sitters use of our pool while we were away, so I purchased more liquid chlorine from my local Walmart and kept testing... My Calcium Hardness was great (300), my CYA was 30, and my TA was at 90, but for some reason, my chlorine levels were barely inching up (that should have been my first clue, but I was stressed about other things that were happening right before our trip -- both my washing machine and clothes dryer broke down, and then my kitchen sink developed a leak!).

Desperate, the night before we left on vacation, I tested and added 4 more gallons of liquid chlorine to the pool. I also left a couple of gallons for our house-sitters to add while we were gone. We arrived home last night to dark, GREEN SWAMP! :( Not only did my guests NOT get to use the pool, but my once perfectly balanced pool now looks like the nasty fish tank from "Finding Nemo!" At midnight last night, I added some acid and my last gallon of liquid chlorine thinking it would be better than nothing, but I swear, this morning it looked WORSE. I went to Walmart, bought several more gallons of liquid chlorine and was in the process of pouring them in when it suddenly occurred to me that I couldn't smell the chlorine. I cautiously lifted the jug to my nose: NOTHING. It smelled like stale water. I have a very sensitive nose, but I never bothered to check the chlorine I was pouring in my pool, probably due to all the stress before our trip, the chaos of getting ready to leave, etc. Anyway, it never occurred to me that the chlorine was bad! And ALL FOUR gallons I bought today are bad. They all smell like water, without a hint of chlorine. :(
I know for a fact that the chlorine they were selling at the start of the season was good stuff, but either Walmart has been sold some bad chems or they are clueless about how to store liquid chlorine and they are ruining their own merchandise! I will be returning the still full bottles first thing tomorrow and I doubt I will ever buy chemicals from Walmart again! :mad:

New vinyl line arriving Saturday!

I am happy to announce the new liner for our 14,000 gal pool arrives Saturday. I’ve found posts in the TFP forums where testing my tap water (city water) prior to the fill is a good idea. Any other suggestions are welcomed. (E.T. (left here by previous homeowners) will finally be poolside by a clear pool. 😊

Attachments

  • 5E71CE84-92D8-49BC-9F55-798E243F30EB.jpeg
    5E71CE84-92D8-49BC-9F55-798E243F30EB.jpeg
    795.8 KB · Views: 56
  • Like
Reactions: Newdude

Above Ground Pool Help for a Rookie

Hi All,

I’ve read some articles but haven’t yet found the answers I’m looking for. I *think Leslie’s is my 1st problem. I finally bought a non Leslie’s test kit. It’s coming soon. I can’t keep the chlorine levels up for anything. I have 3 tabs of in the swim 3 inch tablets with stabilizer. My FC is below 1. I did buy a gallon of chlorinating liquid from Home Depot that will help bring it up for a day or so. Test strip said my alkalinity was low so I put Leslie’s Alkalinity up in but it seemed to just sit on the bottom and eventually turn green. My filter is a cartridge and I’ve been cleaning it every 3 days to keep the pump at a good pressure. I feel like I’m doing something totally wrong. Why aren’t the 3 tabs keeping it chlorinated? I’m in Texas and it’s HOT!! Water temp is 89°. I did read something about a light causing issues and I do have a pool light that is full of yuk looking water. Do I need to remove that? Is there a basic regimen I should be doing? What products are reputable. Please help! Or point me in the right direction. Thank you!!!!
  • Like
Reactions: mommahocker

New build

Hi. Thank you to all the creators and members of TFP. We have been getting quite the education! Below is a comprehensive summary of our new build. Please feel free to review and share your critique, feedback, questions, or comments.

Project Dimensions: ≈16k gallons, 440 sq ft, 124’ perimeter, IG, shotcrete, salt water
  • Lap Pool– 8’ x 48.3’ 4 entry stairs and 1 rear exit 2 person seat/stair
  • Spa – 6’ x 8’ – spa is level with the pool with all 1’ porcelain travertine tile spa wall (spill way)
  • Pool Depths – 3’9” until past exercise rail then 4’0” (total shallow end about 24’) to 6’0” depth
  • Spa Depth – 3’9”
  • Auto cover by Cover Pool T4 System with vanishing lid (track under the coping, travertine cover box housing), quad fabric forest green, steel grade & stainless steel ropes, CoverLink keypad touch pad, maybe with wi-fi
  • BADU Swim Jet system (see below) ( Badu®Stream II – SwimJet System | SPECK Pumps )
  • Upgraded heaters – see equipment section
  • Latticrete Hydroban waterproofing at the waterline and spa wall spillway areas prior to tile install
Permits and Engineering:
  • Includes standard structural pool engineering
  • Includes upslope with retaining wall surcharge engineering detail
  • Includes auto cover vault engineering detail
  • Includes City of San Diego combination building permit
Excavation:
  • Includes setting elevations, layout and forming
  • Includes guaranteed excavation with the exception of rock or hard ground conditions
  • Hard ground conditions are any ground that requires the use of a breaker or ripper
  • Includes removing all pool dirt & sod from site – including trucking and dump fees
  • Removal of travertine sidewalk and patio to allow for gas lines
Steel Reinforcement:
  • Steel reinforcement to meet or exceed local building codes
  • Includes Five (5) #4 bars in the bond beam
  • All steel surcharge to be #4 bar where required
  • All steel to be properly blocked up and spaced to allow proper shotcrete coverage
  • Includes double curtain spa wall rebar
Plumbing:
  • All plumbing to meet building and health department standards
  • Pool plumbing to be hydraulically balanced with water velocities of less than 7’ per second
  • All plumbing lines to be PVC schedule 40 pipe
  • Includes variable speed pool filtration pump for energy efficiency
  • Includes dedicated main drain
  • Includes dedicated cleaner line with valve
  • Includes 2 Waterway commercial grade skimmers with dedicated suction line w/ 2.5" Pipe (each separately plumbed to the pad). Skimmers to be placed 15' from each end of pool.
  • Includes dedicated 2HP spa jet booster pump with 3” suction
  • All plumbing to be pressure tested throughout construction
  • Includes equipotential deck bonding per building code.
  • Includes auto fill with overflow to be connected to yard drainage by drainage contractor
  • Plumbing hook up for thermal solar panels. Add 2 solar stub, 2” lines to house & 1/2” conduit
  • Returns: The pool has 3 full size 1.5 inch return lines with waterway flush mount adjustable eyeball fittings. Return locations to be determined. Will be installed to push water towards the skimmer for better skimming action. A dedicated deep heat return at the deep end for better mixing when the heater is on is included.
  • Heater-PB sets up a spa spillway mode that automatically turns the valve and send 100% of the water back to the spa and spa spills over into the pool. This is usually set up for a couple of hours every day to keeps the pool one body of water.
  • TFP comment re bypass on heater- PB says: Since we have a chemical controller, PB will need to check with Pentair on what they recommend for spa filtration. A hard plumbed spa bypass is the older way of doing it, but it might be the better way for a chemical controller. PB will get some feedback from the Pentair rep on this issue. PB also install a check valve right after the heater.
  • Work with thermal Solar professionals as needed in process of pool builiding
Gas Line:
  • Includes gas line from meter to pool equipment location
  • Includes gas hook up at pool heaters and house with shut off valves
  • Includes upsized 2” gas line for long gas run
Shotcrete:
  • Includes shotcrete pool structure per engineered plans and specifications with continuous bond beam around skimmer(s)
  • Buyer agrees to water shotcrete structure twice a day for five days after placement.
  • Includes 3500-PSI Shotcrete
  • PB places heavy emphasis structural strength. This means heavy steel schedules spaced properly and heavy PSI on our shotcrete placement.
Clean Up and Backfill
  • Includes thorough cleanup of all pool construction debris
  • Includes backfill and compaction of all plumbing, gas, and electrical ditches
Equipment:
  • Filtration Pump – Pentair IntelliFlo variable speed pump
  • Jet Pump - Pentair 2HP Whisperflo pump
  • Filter – Pentair Clean and Clear 420 s.f. cartridge filter
  • Heater – Pentair ETI 400,000 BTU high efficiency heater (natural gas)
  • Heat Pump – AquaCal Heatwave SuperQuiet SQ 225
  • Pool Lights – Five Pentair Microbrite LED color lights (facing away from house)
  • Spa Light – Pentair Microbrite LED color light
  • Controller – Pentair Intellicenter pool control system with mobile device interface
  • Salt System – Pentair Intellichlor IC40 SWG>upgrade IC60 if desired
  • Chem Controller – Pentair Intellichem water chemistry controller
  • UV system – Pentair Bioshield UV disinfection sanitizer
  • Spa Jets – 6 hydrotherapy jets (variable speed pump)
  • Spa Jets – 8 hydrotherapy jets (booster pump)
  • Spa Jets --Standard shotcrete venturi tee type jets. PB also installs the waterway flush mount adjustable eyeball fittings on each jet, like the returns in the pool.
  • Auto Fill – Pentair Intellilevel auto fill
  • Pool Sweep – Hayward Sweep line placed in the middle of house side of the pool ( The PoolCleaner 4 Wheel Suction Cleaner, White | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products )
Equipment Pad area:
  • Equipment pad footprint is ≈ 4’x14’. Includes a two pump system with filter, heater, heat pump, and chemical controller. PB will include space in front of the equipment for somebody to be able to stand there and service the equipment.
  • Considering a 4’x4’ shower area and ground drain area to rinse off before/after swimming. Not done by PB
  • Will install light in this area as suggested on TFP
Electrical:
  • Includes complete electrical hook up of all equipment and lights
  • Includes set up and programming of Intellicenter and mobile device set up
  • Includes a dedicated 50 amp circuit for the AquaCal Heatwave SuperQuiet SQ 225 heat pump
  • GFCI protected outlet at the pool equipment area
  • Includes a switched circuit to use the pool controller to turn on and off the lights
  • Includes pool control panel which is a sub-panel with breakers
Coping:
  • Includes Travertine pool and spa coping
  • Includes bullnose edge – travertine should be minimum 2” thick for auto cover track attachment
Tile:
  • Includes Laticrete Hydro Ban water proofing system
  • Includes NPT VeraCruz sand/cream (tbd) color 12”x24” ceramic porcelain water line tile. Installer to cut 6”x24”
  • Includes Lightstreams Shell Beach Decorative Glass Tile Strands step trim for all steps & benches
  • Includes 5 lane markers diagonally placed 10’ apart at 3’, 13.5’, 24’, 34.5’, 45’ (NPT Art Deco Rainbow glass 4”x4” 2 dolphins, 2 starfish & 1 nautilus)
Plaster:
  • Includes NPT Stonescape Micro Pebble (color Moraine) pool and spa finish
  • Includes matching flush mount return fittings
  • Includes matching VGB compliant drain covers
Automatic Pool Cover:
  • Pool cover by Cover Pools
  • Includes 440 square foot automatic pool cover
  • Includes automatic cover–buyers’ choice of standard quad colors (likely forest green)
  • Includes monolithic cover vault with steel and shotcrete construction
  • Includes drain outlet for vault – hardscape contractor to connect drain
  • Includes stainless steel brackets for hidden lid system
  • Includes matching coping lid pieces.
  • Stainless steel ropes
  • Includes hard wired remote CoverLink keypad touch pad maybe with wi-fi
Swim Jet:
  • Includes Badu Jet Stream 2 swim system
  • Includes Two BaduStream II Jets combined with one 4HP Speck pump
  • Includes hard wired pool side controller
  • Note: BADU pump to be located no further than 30’ from swim jets
  • Includes 4’ inch plumbing
Start Up:
  • Includes all start up equipment including: brush, net, pole, thermometer, test kit (of our choosing)
  • Includes all programming
  • Includes all initial pool chemicals
  • includes client walk through and orientation
  • Includes 30 days pool service
Additional Specifications:
  • Includes all spa benches and ledges per plan.
  • Includes one exit seat/step at back of pool. Bench will seat 2 adults. Depth TBD (considering 18” of water depth). PB offers to add a top step at the end of the bench if choose.
  • Includes SR Smith 2’ exercise hand rail at shallow end post entry stairs on house side of pool
  • Includes SR Smith deck mounted entry step hand rail
  • Additional handrail if 1 handrail does not work for entry to spa step and pool steps
  • SR Smith deck mounted back step hand rail
Solar
  • Thermal Panels- Swim Jet brand 400 sq ft.
  • Solar PV 10 new SunPower 415 watts panels & 21 Sun World 260 watts, older yet useable panels
Decking Specifications (Left front, left side and back of house)
  • 2883 sq ft Travertine pavers high grade honed and filled in creams shades with variations (French pattern layout, dry mound
  • All Travertine sealed for color and protection. Non slip
For those of you who like pictures, we included a few of the renderings.
1-2-25-21_002.jpg2-25-21_004.jpg03-11-21_004.jpg03-11-21_003.jpg03-11-21_002.jpg02-25-21_018.jpg2-25-21_013.jpgThank you for taking the time to read!

Lowering my CYA without draining water!

I went behind TFP's back and tried something, something that has been discussed on this forum before and didn't seem like it was very well received.
My CYA was high because the pool startup guy put way too much conditioner in before I found TFP. Only thing he did right was add plenty of MA in the beginning to get pH down. His "startup" job was complete before I found TFP.
The product is Bio-Active CYA reducer. I am also surprised and unclear how or why, but my CH dropped as well, which is a good thing.
I will say, I tried this because some of the things discussed on this forum about the product lead me to believe I would be okay because of two things
1. Air temp isn't getting above 80 and water temp is around 60-65
2. I feel comfortable recovering if something went wrong after reading and reading, and then reading more on this site.

My CYA was 140 (diluting to the 30ml and doubling results)
on April 27 I turned off my SWG and I let my FC get down to about 1ppm. Water stayed pretty clear - that took about 3 days starting from 4.0

May 1, I added 8oz of Bio-Active - supposedly an all natural CYA reducer and ran my pump for about 8 hours
FC <1
pH 7.8
TA 90
CH 525
CYA 140

May 2, I increased my SWG generation for 4 hours to 100% while my pump ran from 7am to 3pm.
That afternoon:
FC 4.0! ( I turned by SWG down to 20%)
pH 7.8
TA 80
CH 375
CYA 80 (this seems like a drastic drop in 24 hours)

May 3, I added Muriatic Acid and to keep tabs on the productivity of the Bio-Active:
FC 1.5
pH 7.6
TA 80
CH 375
CYA 70


My water looks even more crisp than it did before I started this process and now my numbers are much better. I am going to get readings daily for 7 more days. Bio-Active supposedly stops working after 7-10 days. I am also going to keep close tabs on my FC. The big jump after the first days seems reasonable and I'm assuming the big drop today is because of the product - little nervous about ammonia.

I just wanted to share my results with you all incase anyone else thought about this product but steered clear because of the lack of topics on it. I know it's not over yet but things are looking manageable so far!

Now, I better go order more CYA reagent... haha

May 4 : no change to swg or chemical
FC 3.0
pH 7.6
TA 80
CH 475 (why is it rising again? Still because it's new plaster?)
CYA 60
  • Like
Reactions: Brandon168

New Freeform Build, SoCal 92882

Build in progress since June, posting here to share and document.

Overview-
18x33 free form
12" raised bond beam
8' spa
2 pumps/400k BTU heater/Intellichlor-Salt
2 sheer descents
4 lights (3 pool/1 spa)
1 fire trough/1 fire pit

Timeline-
3/19/21, signed contract
6/18/21, 13 weeks from signature we break ground with demo
6/30/21, demo/dig/rebar complete
8/12/21, initial plumbing complete
9/14/21, initial pool electric complete
10/6/21, pre gunite inspection
10/14/21, gunite shot
11/12/21, coping pour
12/12/21, tile complete (except for back wrap of spa)

We changed course slightly from the initial mock up design, in pool shape, firepit location, and going tile instead of stone.

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    455.4 KB · Views: 184
  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    389.2 KB · Views: 178
  • 3.jpg
    3.jpg
    371.4 KB · Views: 177
  • 4.jpg
    4.jpg
    311.6 KB · Views: 182

Purple water

Hello all, I recently drained my gunite/plaster pool. I had a white powdery type substance stuck to the surfaces. After some severe scrubbing with a scouring pad, I got about 90% of it off. After some thought, it's possible that it was a lime scale. That however is not thereason for this post. Once I started filling the pool back up, I noticed the water was purple. You can imagine the shock on my face when I was watching this happen before my eyes. The pool water being filled with was city water. It was Saturday afternoon near 5pm, I collected a sample and went to the only pool store open at that time, Leslie's. Long story short, there water testing computer was broke and had no insight as to what it could be. I rolled the dice and bought a bottle of metal out, added to the water and next morning the pool was clear. I still can't understand how brand new water would be turned the color of faboluso. Does anyone have any insight as to what could have been the problem?

Attachments

  • 87F60D23-0B0C-4386-B821-A424B9A8AA44.jpeg
    87F60D23-0B0C-4386-B821-A424B9A8AA44.jpeg
    546.3 KB · Views: 74
  • E7F6E841-04DA-4DCC-B438-41D2DE8955CC.jpeg
    E7F6E841-04DA-4DCC-B438-41D2DE8955CC.jpeg
    427.9 KB · Views: 70
  • A79A1569-7A52-4B17-9A0F-5496E817B410.jpeg
    A79A1569-7A52-4B17-9A0F-5496E817B410.jpeg
    440 KB · Views: 65
  • F262E420-61F1-4D35-92EA-9425DCCACCD4.jpeg
    F262E420-61F1-4D35-92EA-9425DCCACCD4.jpeg
    458.5 KB · Views: 68
  • F961C945-CBEE-4DA1-B15F-8DEE36725D1C.jpeg
    F961C945-CBEE-4DA1-B15F-8DEE36725D1C.jpeg
    241.1 KB · Views: 69
  • 2D158EA2-E6A2-4331-990A-16C0D9B3C806.jpeg
    2D158EA2-E6A2-4331-990A-16C0D9B3C806.jpeg
    405.9 KB · Views: 65
  • 1A596F16-7FBD-4D08-A616-8B11EDAE9AA0.jpeg
    1A596F16-7FBD-4D08-A616-8B11EDAE9AA0.jpeg
    366.3 KB · Views: 55
  • 56A125F4-C37B-4E70-A9E8-EC276A9EA81A.jpeg
    56A125F4-C37B-4E70-A9E8-EC276A9EA81A.jpeg
    356.2 KB · Views: 62
  • Wow
Reactions: Mdragger88

New User - Green Pool & Good Attitude

Hi everyone!

I bought my house 8 years ago, and it has a pool. For a few years my husband was really into it and took great care of it, but as time went on, he has grown more and more bored. He doesn't like being in the sun much and isn't big into swimming so his motivation started to seriously wane. For the last few years, every summer we have issues with algae the pool not being swimmable for weeks at a time.

As for me, I am the type of person who is very smart when it comes to data and numbers, but I trip over my own two feet and I can't even assemble an IKEA bookshelf without tears and swearing. So, even though I've been game to try, my husband has insisted that I should stay away from the pool. So, I was in the position of being the nagging wife who desperately wants a beautiful pool but is stuck being an annoyance to my husband and the embarrassment of the neighborhood.

A few months ago my husband finally agreed that we could hire someone to come take care of the pool for us. I think I called, emailed, or Facebook messaged every pool professional within a 25 mile radius and I couldn't get ANYONE to come out. And during this time, our pool just got greener and murkier.

My husband has finally agreed to let me take over the pool maintenance. (Note that I say "let" -- we are a partnership. What I really mean is that we came to an agreement.) Here is my experience so far:

I bought a Taylor K-2005 test and started testing my water daily. My husband had never done these tests before. He just tested the PH with a digital PH reader and brought the water to Leslie's if we really got out of hand. He was a little annoyed with me for the expenditure, insisting it wasn't necessary. The first thing I found was that our CYA was through the roof. So high that I couldn't get a reading on the test -- just well, well over 100. (Later Leslie's tested it at 135.) I did a ton of reading and came to the conclusion that we needed to drain the pool, at least partially. My husband flipped out and said that he was certain I was wrong, this has never been an issue before, this is why we don't do unnecessary tests... So at his insistence I started working on shocking it instead. I backwashed (first time since last September) and added 4 gallons of liquid shock over the course of two nights. We saw no difference whatsoever. So, I took the pool water sample to Leslie's , dragged the husband along with me to witness, and sure enough, they told me that I need to drain the water out. Of course, the husband believed it coming from the person at Leslie's (who is also a woman - my husband is no misogynist.)

Our pool doesn't have a drain so we had to buy a submersible pump. I'm very paranoid about letting the water level get too low, as we've had trouble with the liner before and had to have it replaced. I'm on about the fourth round of pumping water into the street and then refilling with the hose. So far, no real noticeable difference in the CYA levels, but I'm hoping it's just a matter of time.

My nephew is coming again to spend the weekend the weekend of the 18th, so I am desperately hoping that Aunt Liz can save the day and have that pool ready by then.

Mostly this is just a post to say hello, but of course any advice is welcome!

New Construction Started - Willis, TX (north of Houston)

After a year of due diligence and research we finally broke ground. I'm a bit in arrears but here's the progress over the first 4 days:
Engineering Drawing  -TFP.jpg
Rendering.jpg
5-19-22 Dig Line.jpg
6/2 - Dig Day 1
6-2-22 Dig Day 1.jpg
6/3 - Dig Day 2
6-3-22 Dig Day 2.jpg
6/4 - Steel (#5 for footing/#3 for footing "wrap-arounds), #4 everywhere else. 8" thick gunite for floor, 6" for footing, 12" for walls/bond beam.
6-4-22 Steel.jpg
6/6 - Stub-Outs
6-6-22 Plumbing-Lighting Stubout.jpg
6/7 - Clean out/reshape trenches, floor and walls to ensure proper coverage of gunite.

The Pool Cover, The LEAVES, the WATER, and How To Do It Better Than Last Year: UPDATE

LAST YEAR: Pool cover pump got SOME of the water off the cover... LOTS of leaves all over. Yeah, looked very much like the one shown on the article HERE
This one:771B3FDC-FDDC-41FF-826C-BA51B0F54E7C-1024x768.jpeg

HAS to be a better way... Pool cover pump constantly clogged with leaves. Hmmmm.. .

So I took a plastic bucket with holes in the bottom, from some plant we bought, put a fine and then a coarser screen and jammed them in the bottom. Added the pool cover pump and a brick to sink it all... Added ropes from 2 sides so two people could position it where desired. Looked like this:
PoolCoverPumpBucket.jpg

Then we positioned it in a likely place. Like this:
PoolCoverAfter.jpg

Umm. In THEORY the bucket would sink smoothly. In PRACTICE it tipped like this. But it kept the pump clean and pretty much submerged. Turn it on and... 5 hours later it looked like the above picture. A little raking and a little wind and sun and today it's ready to remove SMOOTHLY without a bunch of water and leaves as we try to get it over the end of the pool.

Worked For Me. And I've got that bucket saved for next year.

UPDATE: Removed the cover rolling it towards the end with the bucket/pump. Ended up with some water around the bucket but it emptied in about 1/2 hour. Then it was light and easy to pull last of cover with bucket inside it up over the edge. Nothing from the top of the cover got into the pool.

I had added 2 gals of 6% bleach around the edges yesterday. Today: The pool is CLEAR all the way to the bottom! About 40 leaves to vacuum up. Last year with quite a bit of water and leaves and sediment getting into the pool as we wrestled the cover off one end, it was pretty cloudy to start. This was VERY Worth It!

Filling now, all plugs / filter drain etc. ready to start up pump / filter when water is high enough. Reinstalled filter pressure gauge I removed last year (I had two gauges ruined over winter last 2 or 3 years).

If it wasn't for the pool temperature (44 F) I'd be tempted to dive in.
.....................

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??
  • Like
Reactions: YippeeSkippy

Filter