Yellowout and algae

[michaelwoosley]

Hello everyone.
My AbGrPool, 20720gl
TA 110, pH 7.5, FC 3.5 TC 5.7, CYA 40, WH 225, phosphate 1000, water temp 83

Over the last week, our weather has been rather wet with almost zero . Weeks prior to this, weather was cooperative and pool water for the most part tested, looked and felt great.

For the past few days, we've had literal yellow algae sitting all over the bottom of pool floor.

We threw in 2 gl 12.5% liquid chlorine the night before. At first, because I didn't know better, I performed a routine vacuum\backwash.

The next morning, to my dismay, the floor was covered again. I called our pool servicer to see what our next step should be. Found out our vacuum process was wrong (shooda been to waste) and our chlorine shooda been more than 2.

So, we vacuumed to waste, brushed the pool and waited till next morning. Yet AGAIN, algae everywhere. I went to another pool store to get their opinion and\or secure their team to exterminate our algae problem. They suggested taking photos bringing in a sample. Once there, they arrived at the numbers and determined we had high phosphates (everything else in decent shape). I purchased some Yellowout product as recommended by the owner. My process to follow was... vac entire floor to waste, sweep floor, added 3 pounds of Yellowout, waited 5 minutes, added 3 lbs of powder shock, filter for 24 hours.

My issue is that only after 2 hours after adding the shock, the pool floor is starting to accumulate WHITE algae. I thought the Yellowout was supposed to ELIMINATE the algae. Where did my thoughts go astray?

Is algae the only organic that can slip through a sand filter or ANY organic can literally slip through?

My battery is low, so I'll sign off for now and follow-up later.

Thanks

Mike

 

[PoolStored]

Post the EXACT Brand and product of the yellow out. Picture if you have it.

How are you testing your pool water? If you don't have a recommended test kit, order one now. Link-->Test Kits Compared

Add 5ppm of liquid chlorine per day until the kit arrives.

If you have one of the recommended kits, or when it arrives, start the SLAM process. Link-->SLAM Process

 

[Donldson]

I thought the Yellowout was supposed to ELIMINATE the algae.

There are two chemicals that are sold under this name by multiple brands, one kind of bad and one very bad. As PoolStored said, we need to see what you added to know what you might be dealing with.

But regardless of which version this is, it is not a chemical that can eliminate algae no matter what the salesperson at the pool store might have said. Neither chemical does anything on its own and only when combined with chlorine does it have any effect for good or bad. Once we verify which type you used I can explain a bit more about what it does, but regardless you've been steered down the wrong road. The good news is that we can help you figure out what road you are on and get you back on track, but for us finding out what you added is step one. Step two will be getting some good testing data to base that on, but rather than repeat PoolStored I'll point back to his post and links.

 

[michaelwoosley]

Post the EXACT Brand and product of the yellow out. Picture if you have it.

How are you testing your pool water? If you don't have a recommended test kit, order one now. Link-->Test Kits Compared Taylor residential K1004

Add 5ppm of liquid chlorine per day until the kit arrives.

If you have one of the recommended kits, or when it arrives, start the SLAM process. Link-->SLAM Process

 

[PoolStored]

That’s not the worst product. Just don’t add anymore.

 

[michaelwoosley]

There are two chemicals that are sold under this name by multiple brands, one kind of bad and one very bad. As PoolStored said, we need to see what you added to know what you might be dealing with.

But regardless of which version this is, it is not a chemical that can eliminate algae no matter what the salesperson at the pool store might have said. Neither chemical does anything on its own and only when combined with chlorine does it have any effect for good or bad. Once we verify which type you used I can explain a bit more about what it does, but regardless you've been steered down the wrong road. The good news is that we can help you figure out what road you are on and get you back on track, but for us finding out what you added is step one. Step two will be getting some good testing data to base that on, but rather than repeat PoolStored I'll point back to his post and links.

Donaldson, i wish I was a little more forthcoming in my earlier post. The reality is my spouse and i have been fighting our pool demons for over 3 weeks. The last week has been specifically the algae being pumped into the pool and settling on the bottom (the algae problem is something we have never experienced before so with all the different amateur experts trying to help, it's no wonder we are struggling). The other 2 weeks were cloudy water issues, which we attributed to high pH due to some rainfall. I'm now thinking this was the onset of our algae problem we're experiencing now. The only issue we noticed was cloudy water, but i suppose we could have overlooked some critical indicators. Also, our pool servicer didn't give us any indications that our water samples harbored algae.

Sooooo, we have made the command decision to vacuum to waste, isolate the filter and replace the sand in its entirety.

We're also adding 3 liters of PhosFree extra strength as the phosphate reading is 1000

We plan to take the chlorine to 12ppm. I feel this should be effective with the new sand and the phosphate product. This will probably allow the family to enjoy the pool Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[PoolStored]

Phosphates are not your issue. Please, please do not add phosfree, that will cause more filter problems!

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

High pH does not cause algae.

Not chlorinating correctly for your CYA level is what causes algae...Link-->FC/CYA Levels

How are you testing your pool water? If you don't have a recommended test kit, order one now. Link-->Test Kits Compared

Add 5ppm of liquid chlorine per day until the kit arrives.

If you have one of the recommended kits, or when it arrives, start the SLAM process to clear the pool of algae. Link-->SLAM Process

 

[ajw22]

We're also adding 3 liters of PhosFree extra strength as the phosphate reading is 1000

1,000 phosphates is not high.

Note that phosphates are measured in PPB (Parts Per Billion). Most other tests are measured in PPM (Parts Per Million).

1,000 may sound like a high number that should be treated but it is not when measured in PPB. If you had phosphates over 10,000 we would have a different discussion.

Your Pool store is happy selling you expensive phosphate remover to treat a non-problem.

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[michaelwoosley]

1,000 phosphates is not high.

Note that phosphates are measured in PPB (Parts Per Billion). Most other tests are measured in PPM (Parts Per Million).

1,000 may sound like a high number that should be treated but it is not when measured in PPB. If you had phosphates over 10,000 we would have a different discussion.

Your Pool store is happy selling you expensive phosphate remover to treat a non-problem.

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

ajw22
I'm only doing this step to treat the water BEFORE I change out the sand. My thought process, hoping it's more correct than not, is to transfer as much of the BAD stuff into the old sand as possible... prior to swapping out with the new sand. If everything works out as I hope, we'll have a setup similar to a new install.

 

[ajw22]

ajw22
I'm only doing this step to treat the water BEFORE I change out the sand. My thought process, hoping it's more correct than not, is to transfer as much of the BAD stuff into the old sand as possible... prior to swapping out with the new sand. If everything works out as I hope, we'll have a setup similar to a new install.

You have no bad stuff.

Phosphates will just come back in your pool water from other chemicals you use.

 

[michaelwoosley]

Hello everyone. 20700 gl AG pool currently going through issues trying to eliminate some higher than normal phosphates (1000 ppb, in progress) and mustard algae (process completed). Pool chemistry is in good balance, pH 7.5, TA 120, CYA 45, CH 225. chlorine is bouncing due to all the treatments I'm doing in preparation to change out the pool filter sand.

I'm seeking some clarity on the relationship between CYA and FC. According to TFP, with my 45 CYA, I should be maintaining a FC level of 6-8 ppm with a SLAM of 18 if my CC gets above .5 ppm.

My issue is that our family has difficulty (at least we believe we do) swimming in such a high concentration of chlorine. As a matter of fact, when I previously worked at a public hotel, it wasn't allowed to have a concentration above 4, otherwise we had to timeout the pool till the reading subsided

I've read from a few other places that it's okay to swim in water with high concentration of chlorine but why when it will irritate your skin, eyes, etc. TFP suggests even higher levels IF the CYA reading is higher. I can potentially understand the fact that the higher the CYA is, the higher the rate of burn off of chlorine. Like I stated earlier, I don't fully understand this relationship and quite honestly there might have to be some COMPROMISE in regards to cost vs chemical effectiveness.

Thanks for all and any feedback

 

[PoolStored]

Phosphates are not an issue. You can effectively ignore them.

Your CYA is 50. Always round up to the next 10. SLAM level is 20.
You should SLAM if you have 1) visible algae, 2) you fail an OCLT (Link-->Overnight Chlorine Loss Test) or 3) your CC > .5.
HOCl (hypochlorous acid) is what is made when you add chlorine to water. Without CYA, levels of chlorine above 1 or so will be harsh on skin and clothes.
The reason public pools do not allow concentrations above 4, is because they are limited to lower levels of CYA.
When you add CYA the majority of the HOCl become bound with the CYA (Cl-CYA).

I can potentially understand the fact that the higher the CYA is, the higher the rate of burn off of chlorine.

Higher CYA actually reduces chlorine loss. It does however, require a higher level of FC be maintained. Again, the vast majority is bound as Cl-CYA.

Itchy skin is usually, pH out of range, CC in the water, or FC too low for your CYA.

How are you testing your pool water and what is your FC and CC level?

If you don't have your own test kit, I'd recommend getting one now. Link-->Test Kits Compared

With CYA at 50, you should be keeping FC between 6 and 8. The net effect is that your effective FC level is too low and the pool is not being as effectively sanitized as it should be, likely causing the irritation. There is something in the water causing the irritation and you don't have enough FC to deal with it. Seen it dozens of times.

I even had one here a couple weeks ago where the kids were having issues with diarrhea...raising FC solved the issue. Link-->Bacteria in water?

Here is the deep end on FC/CYA relationship and sanitization.

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Donldson]

Chasing an already low phosphate number and replacing perfectly good sand is not going to do anything to improve your water.

You are under the impression that there's a difference between algae and cloudy water, but these are the same thing. Green water, cloudy water, it's all algae.

PoolStored's post above has the solution.

 

[michaelwoosley]

Phosphates are not an issue. You can effectively ignore them.

I've been told by a local pool store that phosphates are "food" for algae and they should be managed downward.

Your CYA is 50. Always round up to the next 10. SLAM level is 20.
You should SLAM if you have 1) visible algae, 2) you fail an OCLT (Link-->Overnight Chlorine Loss Test) or 3) your CC > .5.
HOCl (hypochlorous acid) is what is made when you add chlorine to water. Without CYA, levels of chlorine above 1 or so will be harsh on skin and clothes.
The reason public pools do not allow concentrations above 4, is because they are limited to lower levels of CYA.
When you add CYA the majority of the HOCl become bound with the CYA (Cl-CYA).


Higher CYA actually reduces chlorine loss. It does however, require a higher level of FC be maintained. Again, the vast majority is bound as Cl-CYA.

Once I complete my sand media swap and ensure my CYA number is accurate, I will maintain our FC value in conjunction with the CYA, with hopes that nobody will complain about itchy or burning sensations.

Itchy skin is usually, pH out of range, CC in the water, or FC too low for your CYA.

How are you testing your pool water and what is your FC and CC level?

If you don't have your own test kit, I'd recommend getting one now. Link-->Test Kits Compared

I use the Taylor K1004 test kit for now. next year I will purchase the pro kit (I can't remember the part number)

With CYA at 50, you should be keeping FC between 6 and 8. The net effect is that your effective FC level is too low and the pool is not being as effectively sanitized as it should be, likely causing the irritation. There is something in the water causing the irritation and you don't have enough FC to deal with it. Seen it dozens of times.

I even had one here a couple weeks ago where the kids were having issues with diarrhea...raising FC solved the issue. Link-->Bacteria in water?

Here is the deep end on FC/CYA relationship and sanitization.

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[PoolStored]

I've been told by a local pool store that phosphates are "food" for algae and they should be managed downward.

So they can sell you more product...like phosphate removers. Setup a buffet on the moon (no people), who is going to eat it? If you maintain your FC for your CYA, you eliminate the possibility of algae. Phosphates become a non-issue. Eliminating phosphates does not eliminate the possibility of getting algae.

I use the Taylor K1004 test kit for now. next year I will purchase the pro kit (I can't remember the part number)

You cannot accurately test CYA and FC with that kit. Pool store CYA test is notoriously inaccurate.

Once I complete my sand media swap and ensure my CYA number is accurate, I will maintain our FC value in conjunction with the CYA, with hopes that nobody will complain about itchy or burning sensations.

You cannot maintain FC for your CYA if you cannot test it. You need a FAS-DPD kit to accurately test and maintain FC. You need your own CYA test to accurately measure.

If you get the kit and maintain the pool properly, no one will complain about itchy or burning. If you try to do it yourself with the K1004, the probability is high that you will continue to have problems.

If you are unwilling to get a full kit, get the FAS-DPD kit and a CYA test. It will pay for itself by avoiding low FC, algae, adding chemicals you don't need, and the aggravation of itchy skin.

FAS/DPD Chlorine Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Sincerely,
PoolStored.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Once I complete my sand media swap and ensure my CYA number is accurate, I will maintain our FC value in conjunction with the CYA, with hopes that nobody will complain about itchy or burning sensations.

I get regular comments from people about how my pool doesn't make them itchy or smell like chlorine. My MIL even comments that "she wishes they didn't have to keep their chlorine high and could do low chlorine like mine".

They follow Leslies, I follow TFP. Take a peek at my avatar and guess who has the higher chlorine

 

[michaelwoosley]

JJ_Tex, I'm on my mobile device so I can't see your avatar too well and I don't know what a MIL is, haha. enlighten me so I can hopefully get a a good laugh.

 

[trivetman]

Michael - trust these guys. When i inherited my first ever pool with a new house 7 years ago I was scared about going too high on the chlorine. That attitude changed very quickly after hearing the ridiculous advice coming from the pool store and comparing it with the science based approach on this site. More chlorine means a clean pool and a clean pool means no red eyes or itchy skin.

7 years later, zero pool water problems

 

[michaelwoosley]

So they can sell you more product...like phosphate removers. Setup a buffet on the moon (no people), who is going to eat it? If you maintain your FC for your CYA, you eliminate the possibility of algae. Phosphates become a non-issue. Eliminating phosphates does not eliminate the possibility of getting algae.

You cannot accurately test CYA and FC with that kit. Pool store CYA test is notoriously inaccurate.


You cannot maintain FC for your CYA if you cannot test it. You need a FAS-DPD kit to accurately test and maintain FC. You need your own CYA test to accurately measure.

If you get the kit and maintain the pool properly, no one will complain about itchy or burning. If you try to do it yourself with the K1004, the probability is high that you will continue to have problems.

If you are unwilling to get a full kit, get the FAS-DPD kit and a CYA test. It will pay for itself by avoiding low FC, algae, adding chemicals you don't need, and the aggravation of itchy skin.

FAS/DPD Chlorine Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Sincerely,
PoolStored.

So they can sell you more product...like phosphate removers. Setup a buffet on the moon (no people), who is going to eat it? If you maintain your FC for your CYA, you eliminate the possibility of algae. Phosphates become a non-issue. Eliminating phosphates does not eliminate the possibility of getting algae.

You cannot accurately test CYA and FC with that kit. Pool store CYA test is notoriously inaccurate.


You cannot maintain FC for your CYA if you cannot test it. You need a FAS-DPD kit to accurately test and maintain FC. You need your own CYA test to accurately measure.

If you get the kit and maintain the pool properly, no one will complain about itchy or burning. If you try to do it yourself with the K1004, the probability is high that you will continue to have problems.

If you are unwilling to get a full kit, get the FAS-DPD kit and a CYA test. It will pay for itself by avoiding low FC, algae, adding chemicals you don't need, and the aggravation of itchy skin.

FAS/DPD Chlorine Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Sincerely,
PoolStored.

So they can sell you more product...like phosphate removers. Setup a buffet on the moon (no people), who is going to eat it? If you maintain your FC for your CYA, you eliminate the possibility of algae. Phosphates become a non-issue. Eliminating phosphates does not eliminate the possibility of getting algae.

You cannot accurately test CYA and FC with that kit. Pool store CYA test is notoriously inaccurate.

Highly agree with you in regards to FC testing with my kit... the FC overlap screws with me every time. @ the pool store, ANY of the pool parameters are regularly off and I wonder why I place confidence in what they provide. Our pool servicer DOES offer a SPIN test (reluctantly if I beg for it), which matches up fairly close to my Taylor kit.

You cannot maintain FC for your CYA if you cannot test it. You need a FAS-DPD kit to accurately test and maintain FC. You need your own CYA test to accurately measure.

Ordered what you suggested

If you get the kit and maintain the pool properly, no one will complain about itchy or burning. If you try to do it yourself with the K1004, the probability is high that you will continue to have problems.

in order to avoid reagents expiring too soon, I'm going wait till opening the pool next year to order the TF-Pro kit... start the year off

If you are unwilling to get a full kit, get the FAS-DPD kit and a CYA test. It will pay for itself by avoiding low FC, algae, adding chemicals you don't need, and the aggravation of itchy skin.

done
Thanks PoolStored!

FAS/DPD Chlorine Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) Test Kit

tftestkits.net

Sincerely,
PoolStored.

 

[michaelwoosley]

Michael - trust these guys. When i inherited my first ever pool with a new house 7 years ago I was scared about going too high on the chlorine. That attitude changed very quickly after hearing the ridiculous advice coming from the pool store and comparing it with the science based approach on this site. More chlorine means a clean pool and a clean pool means no red eyes or itchy skin.

7 years later, zero pool water problems

Thanks Trivetman for your vote of confidence. I believe I will take your advice and follow the science. Have a great one !