Installing an EOS ozone generator in a Bullfrog R7 hot tub

[Tunnelteam]

We got our Bullfrog R7L in late September of this year, my first hot tub. We love the tub. The jets, the quiet circulating pump, the simple controls, it all worked great. I did start having problems with the Frog@ease water care system when the water got cloudy. I dumped the water and decided to pay closer attention to PH and TA. I also ordered the EOS ozone generator parts with the thought that Frog@ease water care system might need a high end ozone generator to work. As the weeks passed, I kept adding more and more non-chlorine oxidizer to try to get the combined chlorine down from 15 to 20ppm. Free chlorine never got above .5 ppm. Then I start to get itching and spots on my calves and then the rest of my body. Then I did some more research and found the TFP website. I saw I was not the only one to have problems with Frog@ease. I changed the water again and I have been using the TFP dichlor/bleach system for a couple of weeks and it seems to be working well. I don’t know if it was the non-chlorine shock or bacteria that caused the itching so I am trying to avoid both with the TFP dichlor/bleach program and shocking with chlorine only.



I am thinking I will go ahead and install the EOS since I purchased the parts. I have read comments from some of the ozone skeptics at TFP but I thought it might be useful for oxidizing combined chlorine. If it ends up destroying too much of the free chlorine, I can always unplug it. The problem I have is that I don’t see how the parts could conveniently fit into the compartment. I am wondering if any bullfrog owners with the EOS ozone installed have any photos of their equipment compartment that they could share with me.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Have you used Ahhsome to clean out the biofilms from your tub?

what is ahh-some?

What is Ahh-some?

www.troublefreepool.com

Ahh-Some Questions for First Purge

Hello, I know you all are probably getting sick of me, so THANK YOU to everyone who is taking the time to answer my endless questions! I purchased ahh-some before my spa even arrived haha. I've already disclosed in a previous post, I got too excited to get in my new spa and I didn't purge. :(...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

I have read comments from some of the ozone skeptics at TFP but I thought it might be useful for oxidizing combined chlorine.

In a hot tub that spends most of its life covered, it can help. Unlike a pool, the whole hot tub can pass through the unit in very little time, or even make several laps.

 

[Tunnelteam]

Have you used Ahhsome to clean out the biofilms from your tub?

I did use Ahhsome before the current fill two weeks ago. I was unaware of it until I saw a TFP post about it. It turned up a huge amount of foam. The local pool shop sales person was unaware of the brand so I ordered some on-line. Good stuff.

 

[Methuselah]

MPS will read as CC. There's a reagent that can neutralize the effect and I bought it, but found the instructions a bit obfuscated. Anyway, just saying...

I wouldn't recommend the frog system, but heck, since you alredy have it, maybe @RDspaguy will chime in with some pointers on how to make it work? It's not a stand-alone solution for sanitizing (all I know except you are not the only one reporting a difficulty trying to use it).

One more thing, I recommend the sticky pinned to the top of this forum. In particular, you need sufficient chlorine so shocking won't be a normal necessity.

 

[Tunnelteam]

One more thing, I recommend the sticky pinned to the top of this forum. In particular, you need sufficient chlorine so shocking won't be a normal necessity.

Thank you. I have come to agree with you (and others) that the Frog@ease is not a good option. On shocking, is the sole purpose of shocking to eliminate combined chlorine or, are there other benefits? I am thinking there might be some tough bacteria that don't die off with standard chlorine levels but will die with a shocking dose of chlorine.

 

[Methuselah]

If a proper residual fc level is maintained at all times, chlorimines tend to stay in check. There may be a stubborn low level cc persistence, especially as months pass. Shock levels and leaving the cover open a bit can alleviate that. Shock levels might be able to penetrate a biofilm colony and let the filter help you clear it from the tub, or at least that's my theory because my first purge didn't get out much gunk.

You can shock with MPS or CHL (maybe even hydrogen peroxide???), but if proper sanitation is maintained it shouldn't be necessary. Cleaning the filter regularly and suitable filter settings go hand in hand with sanitation.

I just found this, check out the link in post #6 and answer in #7:

Ozone and Ionizer Combined

Has anyone ever combined an Ozone generator that generates 10 g/hr of ozone with a copper/zinc/silver ionizer (electric current)?

www.troublefreepool.com

We have a very well respected contributor here that makes an excellent case for dumping water at 2 month intervals...

Is weekly shock needed?

As per the spa sticky thread: "Never let FC drop to Zero for any length of time. Keep it between 3-6 ppm normally, min of 1 ppm, and shock to 12 ppm once a week." If my CC is 0.5 or less, do I need to shock once a week? thanks!

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Tunnelteam]

We have a very well respected contributor here that makes an excellent case for dumping water at 2 month intervals...

That sounds good. Thank you. I checked my water bill and calculated that to replace the water in my 431 gal tub it is only $5 or $6. I suspect the main expense is the cost to heat the new cold water.

 

[Methuselah]

That sounds good. Thank you. I checked my water bill and calculated that to replace the water in my 431 gal tub it is only $5 or $6. I suspect the main expense is the cost to heat the new cold water.

I did an analysis here. You are correct, heating is a substantial percentage of the cost.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think you’re going to need to call Bullfrog to ask them how to install the EOS unit. From the diagrams online, the M series appears to have specific locations set aside for the EOS unit but the R series does not. The R series does have a hose labeled for ozone feed (item #10 on the diagram but no place to install the controller/power supply or contact tank. It may requires either installing it after-market or external to the tub body. My guess is Bullfrog is going to refer you to whoever you bought the tub from to have them install it professionally. That’s probably the best approach because you don’t want to void your warranty.

Ozone isn’t bad as long as it’s used properly and in conjunction with proper chlorine sanitation. It’s only a problem when people fall into the trap of believing that ozone will replace chlorine and then they let things go.

 

[Tunnelteam]

The warranty is an issue. I think I will hold off for now and see how well I do with the TFP dichlorvos/bleach approach. Thanks for the input.

 

[RDspaguy]

My guess is Bullfrog is going to refer you to whoever you bought the tub from to have them install it professionally. That’s probably the best approach because you don’t want to void your warranty.

Ozone isn’t bad as long as it’s used properly and in conjunction with proper chlorine sanitation. It’s only a problem when people fall into the trap of believing that ozone will replace chlorine and then they let things go.

This. Don't touch a spa under warranty yourself.
Bullfrog, to my knowledge, does not use a 24/7 circulation system. As such, I do not recommend ozone or UV, as to run the system long enough to benefit from them will cost a ton from running your main pump to filter. If by some chance they are now using a 24/7 system, I would get ozone.

wouldn't recommend the frog system, but heck, since you alredy have it, maybe @RDspaguy will chime in with some pointers on how to make it work

Just to be clear, I am a fan of silver ion (mineral) purifiers. Spa frog makes one. The frog@ease system uses it, along with "smartchlor", a product which I am unfamiliar with except for all the problems that people talk about here. I do not recommend smartchlor. I use an in-filter "stick" in my tubs and recommend those to my customers.
As stated, this does not replace chlorine, it is a secondary layer of protection that provides a few benefits that chlorine does not.

 

[Methuselah]

Just to be clear, I am a fan of silver ion (mineral) purifiers. Spa frog makes one. The frog@ease system uses it, along with "smartchlor", a product which I am unfamiliar with except for all the problems that people talk about here. I do not recommend smartchlor. I use an in-filter "stick" in my tubs and recommend those to my customers.
As stated, this does not replace chlorine, it is a secondary layer of protection that provides a few benefits that chlorine does not.

It's great you pointed out the need for ozone to be a 24 hour system!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Ozone is not an appropriate sanitizer and it does not need constant application in a hot tub. There are right ways to use ozone and very wrong ways to use it. Hot tubs that are sold nowadays rarely use thoughtful design when it comes to supplemental oxidizer systems such as ozone or UV - they just slap on whatever toys they can find, claim that they are using the “most powerful technology available ever”, and then charge a huge premium for something that will be dead in a year. This leaves the hot tub owner believing a lot of hype without understanding the fundamentals of recreational water care.

Ozone should be applied as a supplemental oxidizer to chlorine or bromine. It should be applied for only a period of time that it has an actual effect (removal of CCs) and then it should be stopped. Ozone is a very powerful oxidizer that will quickly degrade plastics, cause corrosion of metal parts and is a powerful respiratory irritant that can trigger asthma attacks in vulnerable people. It’s something that should be used sparingly and with proper engineering controls to ensure that people aren’t breathing it in.

The EOS system mentioned above actually uses ozone the correct way - it utilizes a contact tank to treat water slowly and then any residual ozone is released through a blow off valve attached to an active charcoal filter that will neutralize the ozone and turn it back into harmless oxygen gas. In this case, only water in the contact tank gets treated and sent back into the spa. The unit generates 100 grams per hour of ozone which is actually quite high. It only needs to be run for a few hours to destroy bather waste and then it can be shut off and a chlorine residual can be reestablished. This is the correct way to apply ozone to a hot tub. In the past, tub makers would simply put an ozone generator on one of the recirculation lines and then just power it up when the tub was in standby mode and presumably covered. That method over utilizes ozone which then will destroy chlorine as it builds up. It also causes rapid wear and tear on the CD ozone generator which will quickly fail within a year from constant use.

I’m not a huge fan of ozone but neither am I against its use. My beef is primarily in how it is used and how poorly it is implemented for consumers who are sometimes spending tens of thousands of dollars for a hot tub and getting what amounts backyard garage “engineering” …

 

[phonedave]

I do not have a circulation pump on my A6. My understanding is that with the circulation pump, you can change you filtration schedule to 24/7 if you wish (or any other schedule that makes sense).

If you had the O3 in place, then it would run during that schedule.

As far as MPS / @Ease, as was said, they represent as very high levels of CC.

Me, I use neither. I keep my FC at the recommended range for my CYA (which is about 30 ppm). My tub filters (and runs ozone) like 4 hours a day I think. I really do not notice a lot of drastic FC depletion.

If I notice CCs forming (i.e a light pink tint when testing, likely less than 0.5) I will add FC to shock level, run both jet pumps, and leave the cover open for 30 minutes. That normally clears out any CC. I only have to do this if I don't use the tub for a while, and therefor the cover is on most of the time.

 

[RDspaguy]

Ozone is not an appropriate sanitizer and it does not need constant application in a hot tub.

I agree, it is not a sanitizer, it is an oxidizer, and to gain the benefits of using it you need it running alot. In my experience, people with ozone on a timed filter pump never see any benefit from it. The ozone pipe in these is just a 3/4" line, like every other jet, off of the 2" or so main jet pipe. Flow rates for this are virtually impossible to figure without installing a flow meter, since only a small part of the flow goes through the ozone line. Typical filtration is 4hr per day. That is probably not enough for 1 turnover through the ozone injector, much less the 5 it takes to get 99% exposure. A 24/7 circ pump with dedicated plumbing will get 5 turnovers in 5 hours or so, and 99% exposure over 4 times per day. The difference is night and day. Ozone on a timed system is there so they can say they have ozone. The systems that actually work made it so popular that it was hard to sell a tub without it for a while there. So everyone started slapping them in without designing a system that benefits from it. These are useless at best, and destroy your cover at worst.

then charge a huge premium for something that will be dead in a year.

Ozonator lifespan is measured in hours, and they vary. Tubs that only run it 4 hours a day and had a decent unit to begin with will last for many years of useless operation. Tubs on 24/7 systems obviously go out much faster (about 6x) but actually do some good.

utilizes a contact tank to treat water slowly and then any residual ozone is released through a blow off valve attached to an active charcoal filter that will neutralize the ozone and turn it back into harmless oxygen gas.

Pioneered in the spa industry by Dimension One in the 90s. They used a diaphram pump (like a fish tank air pump) to pressurize an ozone generator and injected it via diffuser bulb (again like a fish tank) into the gas-off chamber, which had a charcoal filled vented lid. Interestingly, (to me anyway) this air pump also created flow via being injected into a standpipe creating a 24/7 filtration and heating system.
Sundance and Hot Springs were first with a mazzei (venturi) injection system. Early models ate covers, so they added about 30 ft of return pipe, looped around under the spa, to give it time to do it's thing and convert back to oxygen before returning to the tub. This became the standard for the industry for years. Now they have mixing chambers, which just break up the ozone bubbles for greater contact, and sometimes gas-off vents, which are optional in a properly plumbed system. Frankly, if it's venting ozone (which it should not be) I don't want it doing so under the cabinet anyway.
In old D1 tubs the ozone (or uv light used to produce the ozone perhaps) would make the plastic in the ozone unit brittle and the hoses stiff, leading to a broken barb on the ozone unit, which was mounted INSIDE THE CONTROL BOX, along with the board, transformer, and air pump. So it would pump ozone directly into the box, destroying everything in it. I've seen circuit boards crumble.
I will also mention that for decades now digital control systems have been designed to turn off the ozone if ANY button is pushed for usually 15 minutes after everything has turned off. This was a response to everyone slapping in ozones in tubs not plumbed right to try to compete.
I'll also mention that around this time they used to sell an in-home ozone air purifier that pumped ozone directly into your home for your breathing enjoyment. And it was approved by the EPA at the time. Frightening.

That method over utilizes ozone which then will destroy chlorine as it builds up. It also causes rapid wear and tear on the CD ozone

This. If the circulation pump can be programmed (not an option on most tubs I see) you can dial it in to your specific needs and extend the life of the unit.

 

[phonedave]

I'll also mention that around this time they used to sell an in-home ozone air purifier that pumped ozone directly into your home for your breathing enjoyment. And it was approved by the EPA at the time. Frightening.

I had one. Bought it a home show. Granted I only had it in the basement, and only had it run when nobody was down there, but yeah, not the smartest thing to use.

Apparently they still sell them - Alpine Air Purifier | Alpine Air Living Purifier | Fresh Alpine Air Living Purifier | Ecoquest Fresh Air Purifier | Alpine Air Purifiers and accessories

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Indoor ozone air purifiers have a purpose and are excellent when used for what they are designed for - cleaning, disinfecting, and deodorizing. My neighbors house was a jingle-mail foreclosure and before the house was bought I wandered over when the bank sent out their real estate agent. It was a stinking mess as the previous occupant basically let their 3 dogs run wild - urine, feces, and cigarette smoke permeated the house. Every carpet was ruined and stained. The bank had to get a clean up crew to rip out anything they could and deal with all the damage. The last step before repainting and new carpet install was to setup ozone generators and air blowers with an industrial exhaust fan taped to an open backyard window. They basically flooded the entire interior of the house with ozone and moved as much air as they could. Surprising, after a weekend of that the house smelled fresh again (I had ring-side seats to the entire endeavor and the clean up crew was really nice and let me poke my head in to watch what they were doing … I took their business card for future reference).

So, ozone done right has purpose. Ozone done wrong will kill your pets and give you asthma ….

 

[RDspaguy]

A guy I used to work with got a job selling them. They gave him a demo unit and he tried it out at his home, and fell asleep for a couple of hours with it running in the same room. He awoke to no voice for several days, sore throat, and short of breath.
He quit the next day.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

At one point it was possible to buy electrostatic air purifiers that used high voltage capacitive plates and wires to charge up dust and smoke particles and then statically trap them on the plate surfaces. They were marketed to homeowners with smokers in the house as a way of keeping the air “fresh”. The originals ones only used simply fabric perfilters to capture large dust and hair so that the filter would sound like a bug zapper. But these filters would also generate a measurable quantity of ozone. It didn’t take long for people to complain before they started adding charcoal filters on the output to neutralized the ozone. I don’t think they sell them any longer. My parents had one when my dad used to smoke pipes and cigars (it was all the rage in the 70’s and 80’s) and the thing was a classic death trap for a child - all sheet metal and openings just big enough for tiny inquisitive fingers. I think the wires would charge up to a couple of hundred volts each but the plates were grounded. A well place metal fork from a curious kid could easily taze them … ask me how I know