Getting ready for SWG

[needsajet]

There's nothing wrong with being extra careful and over time, you'll probably get really good at keeping close to your target. Kim's point is also valid in that some people do what I think of as over-steering, and then get into trouble. Allowing yourself ranges, e.g. pH 7.5 to 7.8 inclusive and CSI -0.3 to +0.1, gives the pool time to react and settle, so you then have a chance of finding your pool's sweet spot.

Scaling can actually happen very quickly, so you'll have an upper limit. I can see mine by little bits of scale on tile grout near the skimmer throat at the waterline which I scrape off with my fingernail. In my daughter's pool, I can see it on the SWG if I let CSI get too high. I talked to another member the other day who sees the odd flake from his SWG after polarity reversal. These problems go away once CSI is lowered, but serve like canaries in the coal mine to help you find your upper limit.

I'm very supportive of being thorough and gaining a strong understanding of water balance. It's also fair to say that it takes more attention to keep pH lower than it's sweet spot. By example, pH 7.4 tends to take more testing and adjusting than pH 7.8 because the carbon dioxide in the water is reacting with the atmosphere, which puts upward pressure on pH. The lower the pH, the stronger the upward trend because the reaction with the atmosphere is stronger. The higher the TA, the stronger the upward trend.

My tendency at the start was to believe that there's a single ideal number, but reality taught me that it's a range because of variations in temperature, incoming dissolved salts, use of pool cover, activity that raises aeration, splashout, and so on. I applaud you for learning all the ins and outs early on, because as you say, that will undoubtedly extend the life of your pool, which is what many of us are here for, along with wanting the safest, kindest, clearest water for swimming

 

[Dirk]

Thanks for the comments needsajet. Glad to hear it's not just me looking at pool longevity issues. Figuring out how to keep the water clear, clean and sanitized was relatively easy (thanks to TFP!). Ridiculously easy, actually, compared to what I had in my head about it before taking it on myself. But my "longevity quest" is another matter. Here's how I'm doing the math:

My pool was about 5 years old when pool-guy destroyed the plaster with his acid wash. But he was the same guy who was maintaining the pool since day one. So he let the scale form on the plaster, and probably weakened it, too, some amount anyway, because of the other levels he was abusing. So by my calculations, he robbed me of at least 10 years of plaster life. (Based on the 15-year plaster lifespan consensus I've gathered, which I suspect is probably low, since it's likely figured on most pool owners mistreating their plaster in some way, unbeknownst to them). So based on my projected lifespan, had my 1st plaster surface lasted 15 or 20 years like it could have, I would have been looking at just one more replaster job in the future ($6000). Because my pool guy advanced the first replacement date, now I'm looking at a possible 2nd replacement ($6000 + $6000 = $12000)! Which is really the only reason I went with pebble, to try and get another 5 or 10 years out of the surface. (I actually like the way plaster feels much better.) So this pebble was $9000. I had at least one $6000 replacement in my future. If I can get $3000 out of the pool guy (pending lawsuit), and this pebble lasts 15 years, then I'm even. But if I can get my pebble to last the rest of my life, then I'm ahead. If my pebble poops out, and I have to replace that, even with plaster, then I'm in the hole ($9000 + $6000). A lot of my math depends on if I can get any money out of the pool guy or not.

Not sure if any of you could follow that, but it's clear in my head. If I get $6000 out of the pool guy (the cost of replacing the plaster), then I'm even-steven. Actually ahead a bit, as it resets my "plaster replacement clock." If the judge decides I should prorate the plaster, based on it's age of 5 years, then I'm still OK, total cost-wise. If I can get my new pebble to outlast me, then I'm ahead total cost-wise, and the decision to go with pebble instead of plaster (a $3000 roll-of-the-dice difference) will have paid off. If I bungled my startup, or slack off on the maintenance, then I'll have to redo the surface once more, and I'll be in the red, so to speak. Something like that...

So that's what I mean when I talk about "swimming at 85" or why I ask about ph7.5 vs ph7.8, etc. It's somewhat academic. This pebble's longevity is going to be what it's going to be. But I'm going to see how long I can stretch this pebble, and try to avoid a second resurface expense. After that, it'll be my daughter's problem!! Which is only fair, because her kids swim in it more than I do!!!

OK, back to reality. For now, it is beginning to gel about ranges and equilibrium. I tortured poor Marty when I first started TFPing, with my quest to lower my TA (Bless him for hanging in as long as he did!!). My TA was way high from the fill, so the first half of my effort was necessary, I think. But I was struggling at the end of it, trying to get it to some target (70 or so), and Marty was trying to explain that I had gotten it low enough and to just let it "slide" into where it wants to live on its own. I finally caved and have since watched it do exactly as Marty advised. I guess I had to see if for myself, but I can admit it now!

At six months old, I know my new pebble is likely the cause of my pH rise. I'm going to add to that rise, I've been told, with my SWG premiere this weekend. So I'll wait that one out too, and hopefully will see it stabilize in the coming year. Maybe not to zero-maintenance, but a once-a-week MA adjustment would be cool.

So, yah, I get it that I need to let my pool do what it's going to do, and trying to battle my pH down below where it wants to be might not be worth the effort (or even possible). Because of my TA adventure, I'm now better able to comprehend how the optimum levels will reveal themselves to me over time. My plan is to keep everything within acceptable ranges, and just wait it all out. And to check in with TFP experts periodically to confirm everything, and to make sure no new pool-maintenance developments arise that require any adjustment to "the master plan."

Yep, I'm afraid that means another 30 years or so of these long-winded posts!! :blah:

 

[lightmaster]

Yep, I'm afraid that means another 30 years or so of these long-winded posts!! :blah:

With the length of your posts, have you ever considered writing a book? Lol

Once your surface matures more and your TA finds it's natural sweet spot, your pH should stabilize. While I don't have a plaster pool and don't have to worry about the initial pH rises of new plaster, one thing I've learned from reading dozen of posts about it, is that it does eventually stabilize as long as you just keep knocking the pH to the bottom of the range once it hits the top. Don't waste your time and money on a single specific value.

 

[mknauss]

Sadly, with high TA and CH fill water in most areas of the West and Southwest USA, we never get that 'stabilize' part of pH. We need to always add muriactic acid. Maybe a little less in the winter, but the upward pressure on our TA due to evaporation and filling with high TA water is never ending.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Well, maybe in the coming years, pool tech will advance. So our pads will look something like the plastic dispensers of candy and nuts at the grocery store. A whole row of 'em. Each one filled with MA, chlorine, CYA, base solution, etc., all with little tubes running to a gizmo the size of a SWG, which is constantly measuring all of the required chem levels and dispensing each as needed, all on the fly, all coupled with pump run times and automation and clarity/bottom/surface sensors/camera that monitor cleaning, etc., etc. The pool industry is part way there, and I've already expressed a similar idea elsewhere here, so I'm surprised it's not done by now!!

I'll only require a small royalty fee...

 

[Dirk]

Sadly, with high TA and CH fill water in most areas of the West and Southwest USA, we never get that 'stabilize' part of pH. We need to always add muriactic acid. Maybe a little less in the winter, but the upward pressure on our TA due to evaporation and filling with high TA water is never ending.

Take care.

Yep, that's our reality, isn't it. I think I've solved for rising CH (or at least slowed it way down) with the water softener hook up. But according to my tests, my filter/softener combo passes TA straight through. The rain water fill system was a bust.

I'm still working on best-practice MA dosing. I think the TFP expert that described putting the acid gallon container near or part way into the water and just tipping out what you need, then cap and rinse right in the pool, has the best solution I've read so far. I haven't tried that yet, as I'm still needing to measure accurately (riding that ph7.8 fence line). So I'm using a combo of that idea and a measuring cup... Still trying to figure out how best to get it down without a lungful. No matter the wind direction, I usually manage to catch a whiff.

I'm imagineering some way to easily and quickly mark or label each gallon container with 1 or 2 or 3 ounce lines, to make dispensing fast, easy and accurate. I'll let you know what I come up with...

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Rain water will be low in CH and TA unless it’s contacting something on your roof (like ceramic roofing tiles). At most the rain water should have a TA of 20-30ppm. If it’s more than that then the water is picking up something funky and alkaline from the roofing material. I’ve measured my rain water in the past and the CH is zero (as expected) and the TA isn’t much higher than 30ppm. My roof is a flat roof coated with a white elastomeric paint so the surface is fairly inert.

 

[lightmaster]

Yep, that's our reality, isn't it. I think I've solved for rising CH (or at least slowed it way down) with the water softener hook up. But according to my tests, my filter/softener combo passes TA straight through. The rain water fill system was a bust.

I'm still working on best-practice MA dosing. I think the TFP expert that described putting the acid gallon container near or part way into the water and just tipping out what you need, then cap and rinse right in the pool, has the best solution I've read so far. I haven't tried that yet, as I'm still needing to measure accurately (riding that ph7.8 fence line). So I'm using a combo of that idea and a measuring cup... Still trying to figure out how best to get it down without a lungful. No matter the wind direction, I usually manage to catch a whiff.

I'm imagineering some way to easily and quickly mark or label each gallon container with 1 or 2 or 3 ounce lines, to make dispensing fast, easy and accurate. I'll let you know what I come up with...

I pull my shirt up over my mouth and nose when I add MA. Won't blow the fumes if the wind blows right in your face hard, but if you avoid standing downwind of the MA jug, it minimizes the amount of fumes that you actually breath. Usually, I don't even notice any smell or irritation.

 

[Dirk]

I did consider some sort of appropriate mask.

I destroyed my hearing, one tiny bit at a time, when I was younger, and am paying for it now. Got me thinking that maybe inhaling slight puffs of MA, over enough time, might have some sort of cumulative affect...

Interestingly, OSHA doesn't recognize MA as something to be protected from. Hard to believe breathing in small amounts, let alone working in and around it for hours at a time, is safe.

 

[Dirk]

Rain water will be low in CH and TA unless it’s contacting something on your roof (like ceramic roofing tiles). At most the rain water should have a TA of 20-30ppm. If it’s more than that then the water is picking up something funky and alkaline from the roofing material. I’ve measured my rain water in the past and the CH is zero (as expected) and the TA isn’t much higher than 30ppm. My roof is a flat roof coated with a white elastomeric paint so the surface is fairly inert.

Yep, my roof water was low in both, but not zero. Filter/softener is CH0, but TA250. The bigger issue is that I just don't get enough rain here to make a substantial difference in dealing with TA. CH is solved with the softener, year-round. Rainwater to solve for TA, if even possible, would only be a few months out of the year, at best. I figure best practice for MA dosing, along with the softener, is what was going to be easiest, and most consistent, all around. Plus, even though you've already mentioned that nothing else coming off the roof is much of a concern, it still creeps me out. Using filtered/softened city water, dosed with MA, just feels "cleaner" to me.

And please just let me continue to pretend that no other grossness ever enters my pool in any other way!!

I'm hoping that maintaining pH will solve for TA, too, without having to do anything else. We'll see...

 

[JoyfulNoise]

OSHA actually has a lot to say about MA safety and use. But OSHA regulates businesses and manufacturing where worker safety is paramount. OSHA doesn’t regulate individual use. It’s up to you as the user to understand what you are working with and adopt proper work practices and PPEs when using any chemical. OSHA sets the boundaries for what will protect a user and those practices should be followed as best as you can.

And be thankful that OSHA and the EPA don’t regulate residential pools or else your life would be very different -

 

[ping]

Using a mask to stop breathing MA is not a good idea, the eyes are not protected and MA will burn them.

I found a slow pour hose on Amazon that attaches to the bottle and I avoid all the fumes. I'll have to search my Amazon account for a link if you are interested in it.

 

[Dirk]

Using a mask to stop breathing MA is not a good idea, the eyes are not protected and MA will burn them.

I found a slow pour hose on Amazon that attaches to the bottle and I avoid all the fumes. I'll have to search my Amazon account for a link if you are interested in it.

Pleeeease do. That sounds perfect!

I had a hair-brained scheme to find a marked squeeze bottle, sort of like what a cyclist would use, that I could fill with MA. Pull the cap, turn upside down, then just squeeze out MA into the pool water, maybe an inch or two above the surface, while watching the MA in the bottle cross the various marks, to measure out 1oz, 3oz, whatever. I thought this was genius, but couldn't find the right bottle, and couldn't find info on what type of plastic would hold up to MA, so I have abandoned that idea for now.

I meant a respirator type mask, in addition to eye protection.

 

[kimkats]

Dirk what about a cap with a fan clipped to it? So far I have found caps that have fans for cooling but don't think that would work well enough to blow the fumes away from your face.

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Dirk what about a cap with a fan clipped to it? So far I have found caps that have fans for cooling but don't think that would work well enough to blow the fumes away from your face.

Interesting, but relying on air current from wind has proven unreliable. Might be the way my yard is shaped? A fan would not likely be much better. I'm going to try this:

Amazon.com: 3M Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Respirator Assembly 5303 Large: Health Personal Care

And see if I can bring myself to use it regularly. (If I'm going to wear something on my head, might as well do it right.) If I find I don't use it, it'll go into my paint sprayer equipment stash and I'll try something else.

I'm diligent about using gloves, and I'm going to step up my eye protection, too, to this (already own one):

DEWALT DPG82-11 Concealer Clear Anti-Fog Dual Mold Safety Goggle - - Amazon.com

Right now I'm trying to hold my breath or take shallow breaths and I think that is actually just distracting me from being careful.

I can hear all you "pro dosers" out there chuckling, that's OK. I've already burned my pebble with CYA and my deck with MA. (I need constant supervision!) I'd just be fooling myself to think my face and lungs are safe from the likes of Dirk! :clown:

The deck I can fix, the pebble I can live with. Lungs or eyes... not gunna mess around...

 

[bmoreswim]

I do smile at folks getting used to MA. But it IS something to be careful with.

If you can post a picture of you with your PPE on, that would be special.

 

[needsajet]

Another technique is to use 15% MA. It costs the same(ish) per gallon, so roughly twice as much per hydrogen ion, but the fumes are almost non-existent.

Or you can DIY by saving a few jugs, buy 32%, don Matt's favorite Santa suit, and cut the good stuff 50/50 with water for day-to-day use. Works with Everclear too.

 

[kimkats]

Dirk I am not laughing or any such thing. The ma part of my pool care is the worst one and I do NOT like it! I have it easier than you in that my pool is an above ground pool so it is easier for me to float my jug/cup and pour.

 

[ping]

Here is the link, Amazon.com: Hopkins 10106B/6 FloTool Spill Saver Trans Fluid and Gear Oil On-Off Filler Refill: Automotive

 

[Dirk]

Here is the link, Amazon.com: Hopkins 10106B/6 FloTool Spill Saver Trans Fluid and Gear Oil On-Off Filler Refill: Automotive

Thanks Ping! I can see how that tool would help with dispensing, and lessen the fumes coming off the acid jug, but it won't help me measure, and I think it's the acid in the measuring cup (which has a larger surface area) that is the main source of the fumes. When it's cold out, I can see the fumes floating off the acid in the cup! Like a witch's brew!!

I still think my squirt bottle idea might work. Four 32oz bottles would hold a gallon. I could use my full gear to pour the acid into the containers, oh, once every few weeks, then have a relatively safe and easy time of dispensing in the pool, sans gear. Big wide mouth for filling. Pull cap for dispensing. Clear or translucent. I'd mark off 1 or 2oz increments along the side, but from upside down, so I could just squeeze off x-amount of acid at a time. Something like this:



The hurdle is knowing ahead of time how airtight it is, and whether it can hold acid indefinitely or not. I suppose I could cut the top off of the original jug, and set one of these inside of it for storage, if it did leak or melt, it would do so into the original jug (which is made to hold the acid).

OK, this is where one of you guys reins me back in!!