Getting ready for SWG

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peirek said:
Dirk - Do you have a SpeedStir? I ask because of your questions/difficulty in reading when the K1766 went brick red. With the SpeedStir it is a simple to read transition. This goes for all testing BTW.
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I do have a SpeedStir (in my sig!), and would be helpless without it. JoyfulNoise helped me with the salt test. I was using an MO I was taught here, but for the wrong test. I kept adding drops to the vial waiting for it to turn to the brown color the test instructions say is "too far," a deeper color than the original change, trying to figure out when the second change happened, so I could subtract a drop. JoyfulNoise explained that the test is over when the first color change happens, basically from milky yellow to anything else (salmon-brick-red-whatever). So I think I'm square on that test.

What I'm struggling with now is something I just noticed the other day. It was on the CH test, when adding the last drops (the ones you count), I was seeing tiny chunks/flakes in the water. When I picked up the vial and swirled it, the extra bits mixed in. Then I realized my SpeedStir "pill" is really only shaking/vibrating at the bottom of the tube, not spinning. When I turn it off and on, it spins for a few moments, then goes back to just shaking. I have a second "pill" and tried that one, but same deal.

Does anybody else's pill shake like that, or are they supposed to just spin, nice and smooth? Is mine defective?

--edit--

Just occurred to me... Is this the symptom for a low battery?
 
Low battery, lol. It'll happen first with the salt test cuz of how thick the solution gets, then with 25mL tests, then 10mL tests. Just had to change mine the other day.
 
Dirk said:
Update. Added six 40lb bags of salt yesterday. Pump has been running since (well mostly, I had a little programming snag). But no salt laying around this morning. And today I just added the rest of my 4 lb bag of Leslie's dry CYA (half a few weeks ago, half today). I finally got the dot of my CYA test to disappear yesterday (first time I tested since the first batch). It read "somewhere less than CYA50."

I originally had added 1 gallon of Leslie's liquid CYA at startup (that should have been CYA30). Now the rest of the 4 lb dry (which should add CYA39). That should put me just under 70. So I'll let the pump run a couple days, then test salt and CYA and adjust as needed.

I mentioned before that I had trouble with the sock-in-front-of-the-return tip. I ended up putting the sock into the skimmer, which eventually worked, with a lot of squeezing. But this time, as I don't have any nylons laying about (well, not that I'd admit to, anyway!!), I'm trying this, from Walmart. It has a wider mesh than a sock, but doesn't leak any but the finest powder of CYA, which should flow right to the cartridge filter. It's got a nice big opening with a zipper, so it's easy to fill, yet seals well to keep the crystals inside. I filled the skimmer basket with it, so it's not going to be able to avoid any flow, like the dangling sock was doing. And thanks to my handy-dandy FlowVis, I confirmed that it's only blocking about 1 GPM, which also means it's "receiving" 1 GPM, so to speak (I'm shooting for a faster turn-around).

I'll update in an hour or two with results from this new experiment!
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Update!

Well either the salt or the CYA really trashed by CSI! (CYA I presume?) Unless you all think otherwise, I'll leave everything alone and let the natural pH rise take care of the pH, which should bring my CSI back in line. But I was bummed because this is the farthest it's been from zero, like, ever. -0.39 was the record before today. Usually it's less the 0.1 away from 0, mostly 0.01 to 0.02 away. I've been doing so well up until now. :(

Image-1.jpg

-0.67!?! Disgraceful... I haven't actually tested yet for salt and CYA, those are calculated from the amount I added. I'll do a proper test in a few days, and hopefully my CSI will have recovered by then. I take it a day or two below -0.6 is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Maybe this is why they tell you not to add salt to new plaster/pebble. Mine is about 5-6 months old.

The laundry bag was a success, though not a spectacular one. It still took overnight, but I only had to squeeze twice, and not much at that. I was looking for faster, but I guess if it took that long that means it was dissolving slowly, instead of leaking out of the bag in big chunks. Speaking of which, there was about a teaspoon worth of large leftover CYA crystals in the bag, wouldn't seem to dissolve. I tossed them, not wanting to just dump them into the skimmer.

I like using the skimmer. It feels safer to me than dangling a sock in front of a return. Case in point, even though I had programmed my pump to run non-stop, it shut down after 23.5 hours. Just checked, it was the egg timer, which I specifically set to "Don't Stop" yesterday. Errr. I've run into this before with my ET, where I'll program something and then later find out it didn't take, or changed the programming in some random way. Point was: if I had left the sock dangling in front of a return, then I could have conceivably had a pile of CYA just below it, uncirculated, which would have burned my new pebble. Not sure if that's worse in the skimmer, but at least I don't have to look at whatever happened to my PVC! (Just curious, how bad is it to have CYA building up in your skimmer.) Dang ET!

And I promised Kim a pic, so here's my new pool chem storage/work station:

IMG_3592.jpg

I cleared out a "junk corner" in my yard, laid down some concrete blocks, and repurposed some deck boxes, mostly resin, so mostly impervious to corrosion. Chlorine on the left, MA on the right, about 3' apart. I think that's safe enough. Plenty of ventilation outside. Once it heats up, and I put my SWG online, I'll require less of a store of chlorine so I'll keep a couple gallons in the garage, where it's cooler, instead of outside. But for winter, when I need my liquid chlorine every day, it'll live outside. The corner is about 10' away from my pad, so everything is handy. The middle box is for misc. pool gear, salt, etc.

I just have to figure out how to childproof the two smaller boxes. My kids know to stay away from pool chem's, but my daughter suggested I lock down the lids when others' kids are in the yard. Can't really argue that point. Stuff looks like Kool-Aid. Can you imagine?

And, lastly, on a good note, I am actually enjoying my pool, not just working on it all the time, even if I can't get in it still. I've shared with others how a pool's color will change throughout the day and the seasons. Mine certainly does. Here's one of my favorites! I love this color. (Pic doesn't do it justice. It was amazing this afternoon!!)

IMG_3593.jpg

More later, I'm sure!

:blah:
 
Let the pH come up to 7.6 and don’t push it any lower than that. Your CSI will go back up to normal. It takes months of aggressive water exposure (CSI < -0.6) to have any noticeable impact on plaster. Salt is always going to lower your CSI because it affects the equilibrium constants of the chemical reactions.
 
For months, I've been adding MA only when my pH gets to 7.7 or 7.8. I usually target 7.6 to 7.7. Never lower (except when I was lowering my TA for a few weeks, way back when). So I think we're on the same page. Thanks, Matt!
 
I don't blame you being careful with CYA after your nasty experience! And love watching your thread and seeing you thinking it all through.

I noticed in your first salt test pics you showed three drops = 300 ppm. It's 200 ppm per drop for 10 ml sample, so that would be 600. I use the 10 ml sample as well because supplies are a bit hard to get down here!

Glad Matt reassured you on the CSI. You'll be golden in a few days or so. My pH drops a tad with a large addition of CYA as well. Moves back quickly tho.
 

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Oh man, thank you needsajet, for catching that! I've said it before... I need constant supervision! Well, that explains why I first thought I had 500ppm (pre-TFP, from Leslie's and pool guy's tests) and later had 300! Not sure how I missed that. And the instructions also clearly state "First change from yellow to a milky salmon (brick red) is the endpoint.", just as Matt explained.

Well, I lucked out, because I think I'm still OK. If I started with 500-600ppm and added six 40 lb bags (2332ppm), that should be 2832-2932ppm total, which is probably right about the low end of my IC40's range. It shuts down below 2600ppm. Owner's manual suggests 3600ppm as optimum. I probably have more salt to add. But I'm glad you caught me when you did, who knows what I might have ended up with!

The manual describes the interface lights:

Red LED:Low salt. The water salt level is below 2800 ppm. TheIntelliChlor SCG will be producing chlorine at reduced efficiency. It ishighly recommended to add salt
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Which makes me think I shouldn't ride the low end of the range, even if the SWG will fire. So I'll follow Matt's suggestion and start with 3200ppm or so.


Do I have this right? Whatever my actual salt level is, the IC will "think" it's less because of my current 60° water temp? In other words, it wouldn't have fired with 2800ppm @ 60° because the IC doesn't compensate for temp, like a meter does, so reads lower than actual salt levels in cold water?
 
I can't help with the salt (one day you will be helping me I hope!) but that set up for the chemicals is purrfect! I love it! For locking the small deck boxes I see a small chain wrapped around them with a lock on it. That should keep curious hands out of it. Make sure it is long enough you can pull the part of the chain by the big box out so you don't have to go looking for it when it drops down between the containers.

Kim:kim:
 
Pentair SWGs have pretty lousy temperature correction. My SWG always reports a salinity several hundred ppm below actual when the water is cold and about 100-200ppm above actual when the water is warm. This is why you want to be close to the recommended levels as that will keep the SWG in its “happy place”.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Pentair SWGs have pretty lousy temperature correction. My SWG always reports a salinity several hundred ppm below actual when the water is cold and about 100-200ppm above actual when the water is warm. This is why you want to be close to the recommended levels as that will keep the SWG in its “happy place”.
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Now you tell me! ;-)





I just added 40 lbs because my IC40 said my salt was low. My water temp was 50 deg. I hadn't paid too much attention to it over the winter, but my water was starting to turn a little green. I didn't expect this until it got closer to 60, but I'm sure the upper layers in the pool were getting warmer than that, especially above the tanning ledge.





So I added some bleach and tried to get the SWG running. But I guess the water was still too cold. So I set the heater to 65 and now it has been generating fine ever since.





It's my first year with this pool, so I'm still learning it.
 
jeffchap said:
Now you tell me! ;-)





I just added 40 lbs because my IC40 said my salt was low. My water temp was 50 deg. I hadn't paid too much attention to it over the winter, but my water was starting to turn a little green. I didn't expect this until it got closer to 60, but I'm sure the upper layers in the pool were getting warmer than that, especially above the tanning ledge.





So I added some bleach and tried to get the SWG running. But I guess the water was still too cold. So I set the heater to 65 and now it has been generating fine ever since.





It's my first year with this pool, so I'm still learning it.
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This is why TFP always advises people to own and use their K-1766 salt test kit. Knowing the true salt level helps to diagnose these issues.

You should not be running your heater if your water temp is below 68F. There is a clear warning in the instruction manual against using the heater to heat the pool when water temps are that low. You can cause excessive condensation of exhaust gases which are corrosive to the heat exchanger. During the winter, when the SWG is in cold water cutoff mode, you simply manually chlorinate your swimming pool until the water temperatures come up on their own and the SWG resumes operation.
 
I didn't know that. As I said, first year with this pool. I'll have to see if our seller left me a manual for the heater. Since my water is already 65, I think I'll just turn it on up to 70 and keep it there. We're supposed to get temps in the 80's this weekend, so I might be able to actually get in it.
 
Yeah, that’s fine. You don’t want to try to heat a pool full of 50F water just to get the SWG to work. That would be a bad idea.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
You stop counting at the first flash of red that stays permanent red. If it flashes red and goes back to yellow, that’s not done yet. If you use a 25ml water sample, it’s 80 ppm/drop. It’s also easier to see the transition. I have a 50mL erlynmeyer flask that I use which I fill up to 40mL so I get 50ppm/drop
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Matt, if I did a 25ml test, how many drops of R-0630 Chromate Indicator would I use? Do you use 4 drops of that for your 40ml test? In other words, do I increase the Indictor proportionally, as one increases the Reagent?

Or should I use two drops of R-0630 in a 20ml sample, which would be 100ppm per drop of Reagent?

I'm not worried so much about the pool water, ±200 is fine for that, but I'm now curious about my fill water, which I had incorrectly calculated as 100ppm (for both my city water and my soft water)...
 
JoyfulNoise said:
You should not be running your heater if your water temp is below 68F. There is a clear warning in the instruction manual against using the heater to heat the pool when water temps are that low. You can cause excessive condensation of exhaust gases which are corrosive to the heat exchanger.
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What?!? Are all NG heaters like that, or just Pentair's (I have the same Mastertemp 250)? So even if I wanted to spend the money to heat my pool for a New Year's Eve party or something, I couldn't... And if I can only start it up in the 70s, then it'd be warm enough out to use my solar heater anyway. So in essence I have no NG pool heater!
 
kimkats said:
I can't help with the salt (one day you will be helping me I hope!) but that set up for the chemicals is purrfect! I love it! For locking the small deck boxes I see a small chain wrapped around them with a lock on it. That should keep curious hands out of it. Make sure it is long enough you can pull the part of the chain by the big box out so you don't have to go looking for it when it drops down between the containers.
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That would work. I was also thinking of using my motorcycle-type tie downs, which would foil little hands, but like you point out, getting something wrapped around the whole box has its challenges. I need something quick and easy (the easier, the more likely I'll do it, I admit). Plus metal near MA can be trouble.

I was toying with the idea of a childproof latch, they're plastic (one of those baby-proofing gizmos), but I'm thinking if I really want it safe I need something an older, inquisitive mind can't figure out. My six-year-old is smart enough to get past a baby latch, but not smart enough, apparently, from getting into under-sink stuff (though he was much younger)! For the record, that didn't happen at my house! Inside, all my household chems are in over-the-counter cabinets, nothing under sinks but TP and towels.

Good gramps...
 

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