Should I Go With A Gas Heater Or Electric Heat Pump?

[ajw22]

You have a 275 CFM gas meter that is insufficient for a 400K BTU gas heater.

1 CFM = 1K BTUs.

So you need gas service over 400 CFM, probably 600+ CFM to support the heater and your other gas appliances.

Look at the data plate on your gas furnace and see how many BTUs that is.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

That meter also only supplies low pressure, 1/2 psi (= ~14” WC). Most gas heaters need at least 4”WC to operate but usually preferred slightly higher than that. The meter can supply the correct pressure for most pool heaters BUT it will require you to run a larger diameter buried PVC pipe from the meter to the equipment pad. Most heater installation manuals wilted you what size PVC line you need for a given run distance.

Gas line installation is probably going to cost you as much as the heater will so be prepared for that and make sure that the plumber doing the work is NATE certified to work on gas and that they install the correct sized gas line for the run distance. We have occasionally seen people install pool heaters with undersized gas lines and that can make a heater non-operational because of pressure losses.

 

[ForceEdge]

You have a 275 CFM gas meter that is insufficient for a 400K BTU gas heater.

1 CFM = 1K BTUs.

So you need gas service over 400 CFM, probably 600+ CFM to support the heater and your other gas appliances.

Look at the data plate on your gas furnace and see how many BTUs that is.

Gotcha I’m going to call the gas company and see what they say about upgrading it. Hope it may be free of charge in NY? But probably not, nothings free here lol.

Also another question, if I keep the same meter I have and just run larger pipe would that be sufficient?

That meter also only supplies low pressure, 1/2 psi (= ~14” WC). Most gas heaters need at least 4”WC to operate but usually preferred slightly higher than that. The meter can supply the correct pressure for most pool heaters BUT it will require you to run a larger diameter buried PVC pipe from the meter to the equipment pad. Most heater installation manuals wilted you what size PVC line you need for a given run distance.

Gas line installation is probably going to cost you as much as the heater will so be prepared for that and make sure that the plumber doing the work is NATE certified to work on gas and that they install the correct sized gas line for the run distance. We have occasionally seen people install pool heaters with undersized gas lines and that can make a heater non-operational because of pressure losses.

May sound like a silly question but if I get a higher pressurized gas meter..does that effect anything inside the house that was running on the current pressure I have now?

And If I keep the same meter I can just run larger pipe? How will I know what size?

And what’s your opinion on the type of meter I should go with? After reading some articles there’s Diaphragm, rotary and turbine meters

 

[ForceEdge]

Should I not got off of what this says? From what I understand it says 250 CFM can supply to a 400,000 BTU unit. I have 275 CFM right
?

 

[ajw22]

Talk to your gas company or a gas plumber about what your local gas service provides.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

May sound like a silly question but if I get a higher pressurized gas meter..does that effect anything inside the house that was running on the current pressure I have now?

If you went to higher pressure that means you can run a smaller diameter pipe but that’s usually done above ground instead of buried. The allowable pressure of gas piping around a home is controlled by local building and plumbing codes. The installer should know these. Most residential appliances operate at low pressure and so you would need regulators installed at every point of use to convert the high pressure to low. It’s typically not worth the hassle and expense to do that.

And If I keep the same meter I can just run larger pipe? How will I know what size?

No, you can not. The meter you have can only deliver a maximum gas flow rate of 250,000 BTU/hr. Your pool heater needs 400,000 BTU/hr. It doesn’t matter what pipe diameter is, the meter is the limiting factor. I’m not sure what that reference is you attached in the other post but it’s wrong. You cannot drive a 400CFM appliance with a 250CFM gas meter. That makes no sense.

 

[ForceEdge]

So of course, here’s the problem that arises. Just called so many people today lol. From what I understand the town has to pressure test the natural gas lines if I’m getting a meter upgrade from national grid. Problem with that is I have two shes which I’m really not suppose to have in my backyard. And the town will have to come in my backyard I’m guessing because national grids just not going to upgrade my meter for no reason, and do a pressure test with the gas heater there and everything? So I’m just not sure what to do here

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So of course, here’s the problem that arises. Just called so many people today lol. From what I understand the town has to pressure test the natural gas lines if I’m getting a meter upgrade from national grid. Problem with that is I have two shes which I’m really not suppose to have in my backyard. And the town will have to come in my backyard I’m guessing because national grids just not going to upgrade my meter for no reason, and do a pressure test and everything so I’m just not sure what to do here

Chances are, they're not going to even care about the sheds. Unless a neighbor lodges a complaint, it's not like these guys go looking for violations of every rule on the books. And, honestly, the person doing the inspection probably hasn't even read most of the rule book.

A pressure test is simply capping both ends of the pipe and putting a manifold on one end with a pressure gauge. The plumber doing the install will do all that and pressurize the line. Then the inspector will come out and look at the pressure gauge. If it's holding pressure, they will pass it. If the manifold and gauge are by the meter, the guy might never even look in your backyard.

 

[Newdude]

The 'not my job' can be strong with town employees. While it can harm you some times it can save you other times. Here's hoping it's the latter.

 

[ForceEdge]

So I got some good news guys!! I think I’m Going with the 400 BTU meter. Next step up is 630 which I think is somewhat massive. So Going to call today to request an appointment. And also maybe ask about the 630 meter. Not sure if it’s overkill since I won’t be running that heater all the time.

Hopefully won’t be to long now

Attached the email they sent me below

 

[PoolBrews]

I see you're in Long Island. No way would I even consider a heat pump in the north. I wouldn't have anything else here in Florida - it's so much cheaper to run than gas - but where you are, it won't adequately heat your pool. A heat pump will have to run for a significant portion of the day to heat your pool, and even with a cover, you'll lose 5+ degrees overnight. The heat pump will spend the entire day trying to get the temp back to where it was, and on days where it's only in the low 70's, the heat pump becomes less efficient.

I had a Hayward 140K heat pump in GA on an 18K pool (much warmer than where you are) and it worked OK from May-September, but had trouble keeping the pool heated to 87 outside of those months. During May and September, it often had to run all day to keep the pool heated.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So I got some good news guys!! I think I’m Going with the 400 BTU meter. Next step up is 630 which I think is somewhat massive. So Going to call today to request an appointment. And also maybe ask about the 630 meter. Not sure if it’s overkill since I won’t be running that heater all the time.

Hopefully won’t be to long now

Attached the email they sent me below


View attachment 531672

Get a 630 meter. You don’t want to under size it. Over-sizing it doesn’t matter at all. You want enough margin so that you can have enough capacity to run EVERY appliance all at once. You don’t pay more for a larger meter to deliver the same amount of gas. Unless the utility is going to charge you some enormous fee for the larger meter or an additional service charge (which they really shouldn’t …), then just get the biggest meter you can to meet the demand of every gas appliance.

 

[ForceEdge]

Get a 630 meter. You don’t want to under size it. Over-sizing it doesn’t matter at all. You want enough margin so that you can have enough capacity to run EVERY appliance all at once. You don’t pay more for a larger meter to deliver the same amount of gas. Unless the utility is going to charge you some enormous fee for the larger meter or an additional service charge (which they really shouldn’t …), then just get the biggest meter you can to meet the demand of every gas appliance.

So national grid says I don’t need a 630 meter. He said the 400 should be fine. I asked and said all my appliances and heater add to about 570,000 and he said these are underrated and it should be fine

Not sure where to go from here

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So national grid says I don’t need a 630 meter. He said the 400 should be fine. I asked and said all my appliances and heater add to about 570,000 and he said these are underrated and it should be fine

Not sure where to go from here

I don’t think I’ve ever met someone in my life who doesn’t want to sell more product and make more money … you’re literally like -

Well …. The fact is a 400,000 BTU/he heater pulls in 400 cubic feet of gas per hour. That’s the ACTUAL draw, not underrated. So when your pool heater fires off, the meter will be maxed out for what it can deliver. If anything tries to draw gas, there won’t be enough supply. So unless their meter is over-rated by design and they just slap a fictitious upper limit on it, then you could easily get into a situation where your gas heater doesn’t allow any other device to start up.

Maybe talk to someone else like a higher level manager? This really should not be a big deal for them unless there’s some regulatory issue with natural gas supplies. Then again, this is NY and your governor wants to ban gas stoves so …

 

[JamesW]

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/li_meter_upgrade.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pronet/ee5140-request-for-larger-meter-and-added-load.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/gas-growth/li-residential-meter-upgrade-request-form.pdf

 

[JamesW]

Fill out the request form and get the response in writing.

 

[JamesW]

Can you show the meter label?

A meter rating is not a hard limit.

The rating is a certified flow at a specific pressure drop.

In other words, the meter maker certifies that the meter will provide the cubic feet per hour of gas at a specific head loss or pressure drop.

A line pressure of 0.25 psi is 6.92 in WC (inches of water column).

If you allow 1/2" w.c of pressure drop, that delivers 425 Cubic feet per hour at 6.42" of w.c.

If you allow 2" w.c of pressure drop, that provides up to 898 cubic feet of gas at 4.92" w.c.

If the line coming out of the meter and going to the heater starts at 4.92" of w.c and there is a pressure drop of 0.5" w.c for the line, then the heater inlet goes to 4.45" w.c, which is below the heater minimum inlet pressure.

So, you need to know the line pressure and what pressure you want after the meter.

If the line pressure is higher, then the meter might be fine.

Ask the gas company what your line pressure is and verify with the meter manufacturer what capacity the meter can provide given the line pressure.

In any case, you need to check the gas pressure static and dynamic with maximum load to verify that the gas pressure is always in the correct range under all conditions.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

American Meter-AL425 Natural Gas Flow Meter (425,000 BTU/hour)

**IN STOCK!!!** Gas Meter: 425,000 BTU/hour A multipurpose diaphragm gas meter capable of gas loads up to 425 MBH (0.6 SG Gas @ 7" WC). Our standard stock configurations come with 1-1/4" connections. Product Description: The Honeywell American Meter AL425 is a diaphragm gas meter with an...

mcsmeters.com

https://www.hayward-pool.ca/assets/documents/poolscanada/pdf/manuals/universal-h-series-service-and-installation-manual.pdf

 

[ForceEdge]

I don’t think I’ve ever met someone in my life who doesn’t want to sell more product and make more money … you’re literally like -

Well …. The fact is a 400,000 BTU/he heater pulls in 400 cubic feet of gas per hour. That’s the ACTUAL draw, not underrated. So when your pool heater fires off, the meter will be maxed out for what it can deliver. If anything tries to draw gas, there won’t be enough supply. So unless their meter is over-rated by design and they just slap a fictitious upper limit on it, then you could easily get into a situation where your gas heater doesn’t allow any other device to start up.

Maybe talk to someone else like a higher level manager? This really should not be a big deal for them unless there’s some regulatory issue with natural gas supplies. Then again, this is NY and your governor wants to ban gas stoves so …

Trust me I hear you. He was adamant that the 400 would be fine that it is underrated. He also stated I have a high pressure line or something along the lines of that. Not sure if that helps the situation

 

[ForceEdge]

Can you show the meter label?

A meter rating is not a hard limit.

The rating is a certified flow at a specific pressure drop.

In other words, the meter maker certifies that the meter will provide the cubic feet per hour of gas at a specific head loss or pressure drop.

A line pressure of 0.25 psi is 6.92 in WC (inches of water column).

If you allow 1/2" w.c of pressure drop, that delivers 425 Cubic feet per hour at 6.42" of w.c.

If you allow 2" w.c of pressure drop, that provides up to 898 cubic feet of gas at 4.92" w.c.

If the line coming out of the meter and going to the heater starts at 4.92" of w.c and there is a pressure drop of 0.5" w.c for the line, then the heater inlet goes to 4.45" w.c, which is below the heater minimum inlet pressure.

So, you need to know the line pressure and what pressure you want after the meter.

If the line pressure is higher, then the meter might be fine.

Ask the gas company what your line pressure is and verify with the meter manufacturer what capacity the meter can provide given the line pressure.

In any case, you need to check the gas pressure static and dynamic with maximum load to verify that the gas pressure is always in the correct range under all conditions.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

View attachment 533074


View attachment 533075

American Meter-AL425 Natural Gas Flow Meter (425,000 BTU/hour)

**IN STOCK!!!** Gas Meter: 425,000 BTU/hour A multipurpose diaphragm gas meter capable of gas loads up to 425 MBH (0.6 SG Gas @ 7" WC). Our standard stock configurations come with 1-1/4" connections. Product Description: The Honeywell American Meter AL425 is a diaphragm gas meter with an...

mcsmeters.com

View attachment 533078

View attachment 533081

https://www.hayward-pool.ca/assets/documents/poolscanada/pdf/manuals/universal-h-series-service-and-installation-manual.pdf

Wow thank you for all of that. He did mention something about a high pressure line. Something along the lines of that. This is a picture of my meter

 

[JamesW]

It's like asking how much capacity a 100 foot long section of 2" PVC pipe has.

There is not a specific limit other than the pressure rating of the pipe.

The rating depends on how much head loss is acceptable.

If the head loss has to be 15 feet or lower, then the pipe is rated up to 100 GPM.

If the head loss can be up to 60 feet, then you can say that the pipe is rated up to 200 GPM.

If the maximum working pressure of a 2" schedule 40 PVC pipe is 280 psi (646.8 feet of head loss), then the maximum flow is 657 to 707 GPM.

y=0.00129639x^2, x from 0 to 710 - Wolfram|Alpha

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