Should I Go With A Gas Heater Or Electric Heat Pump?

[JamesW]

The rating is 275 at a 1/2" w.c difference.

If you have a high pressure line from the street to the meter, the meter might be fine.

As shown in the earlier example, the capacity was about 2.11 times higher if you allow for a 2" w.c pressure drop.

So, your meter can probably do about 580 cubic feet at a 2" w.c pressure drop.

In any case, your installer should verify the pressure static and dynamic to make sure that it is safely in the correct range.

I asked and said all my appliances and heater add to about 570,000 and he said these are underrated and it should be fine.

 

[ForceEdge]

The rating is 275 at a 1/2" w.c difference.

If you have a high pressure line from the street to the meter, the meter might be fine.

As shown in the earlier example, the capacity was about 2.11 times higher if you allow for a 2" w.c pressure drop.

So, your meter can probably do about 580 cubic feet at a 2" w.c pressure drop.

In any case, your installer should verify the pressure static and dynamic to make sure that it is safely in the correct range.

now that you say that..the 580 sounds extremely familiar. I feel like he mentioned something that it could handle 580k BTU

I believe street would be high pressure and house would be low? Is that how it works

 

[JamesW]

Do you have a regulator before your meter?

If yes, can you show the writing on both sides?

 

[ForceEdge]

Do you have a regulator before your meter?

If yes, can you show the writing on both sides?

yes I believe there is. Here is better picture. I believe my current (275BTU meter) regulator says 60 PSI maximum

 

[JoyfulNoise]

In any case, your installer should verify the pressure static and dynamic to make sure that it is safely in the correct range.

James brings up a critical point - whoever does the gas heater installation absolutely needs to verify that the static and dynamic pressures are adequate for the heater. And it’s not just a turn on for a quick 30 seconds and jot down some numbers. The heater needs to be running for a while and the gas pressure values need to be monitored. There’s always the off-chance that there’s enough pressure to get the heater going and then the dynamic pressure slowly decreases until the heater starts having problems.

 

[JamesW]

Can you show the writing on this?

 

[ForceEdge]

Can you show the writing on this?


View attachment 533116

Sure

 

[JamesW]

So, that is low pressure going into the meter.

You might have higher pressure from the street to the regulator, but the regulator drops the pressure going to the meter.

The regulator output is adjustable from 5.5 to 8.5" w.c, which is low pressure.

I would fill out the form to request the larger meter.

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/li_meter_upgrade.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pronet/ee5140-request-for-larger-meter-and-added-load.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/gas-growth/li-residential-meter-upgrade-request-form.pdf

 

[ForceEdge]

So, that is low pressure going into the meter.

You might have higher pressure from the street to the regulator, but the regulator drops the pressure going to the meter.

The regulator output is adjustable from 5.5 to 8.5" w.c, which is low pressure.

I would fill out the form to request the larger meter.

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/li_meter_upgrade.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pronet/ee5140-request-for-larger-meter-and-added-load.pdf

https://www.nationalgridus.com/media/pdfs/resi-ways-to-save/gas-growth/li-residential-meter-upgrade-request-form.pdf

I did fill out that form though. Hmm. So you’re saying the current meter I have which is 275 isn’t sufficient. But would the 400 meter they’re going to put in be with a different regulator? My total BTU with all my appliances running at once would be 580 BTU

 

[JamesW]

I would request the 630 or the 800 meter.

email them and explain the problem.

Escalate the issue until someone helps you.

Do you have a licensed plumber?

Have them help you work through the process.

Contact Us in Long Island | National Grid

Browse our FAQs and contact National Grid representatives in Long Island.

www.nationalgridus.com

 

[JamesW]

If the pressure coming out of the regulator is at 7" and you have a 2" drop across the meter, that puts the pressure at about 5" and then you lose another 1" in the line to the heater and now you are at 4", which is too low.

They are sizing the meter assuming a 2" wc pressure drop, which is inappropriate in my opinion.

I would definitely insist on a bigger meter.

 

[JamesW]

If the person tries to tell you that the 400 meter will be big enough, ask them to explain why they think that.

They should be able to provide a reference, metrics variables and the necessary calculations.

Also, you might want to add more gas appliances later and you should have some margin to allow for the addition of future demand.

Or, you can just tell them that you plan to add more gas appliances now and that you need the capacity.

Maybe you are going to add a tankless water heater or some other large natural gas appliances.

 

[newdude]

Or, you can just tell them that you plan to add more gas appliances now and that you need the capacity.

This is probably the path of least resistance. Tell them an accessory apartment complete with kitchen/laundry/fireplace is phase 2 after the pool.

Yeah. Um. My. Um. Mother in Law wants to downsize and is selling her house for oodles and is paying for it.

 

[ForceEdge]

If the person tries to tell you that the 400 meter will be big enough, ask them to explain why they think that.

They should be able to provide a reference, metrics variables and the necessary calculations.

Also, you might want to add more gas appliances later and you should have some margin to allow for the addition of future demand.

Or, you can just tell them that you plan to add more gas appliances now and that you need the capacity.

Maybe you are going to add a tankless water heater or some other large natural gas appliances.

This is probably the path of least resistance. Tell them an accessory apartment complete with kitchen/laundry/fireplace is phase 2 after the pool.

Yeah. Um. My. Um. Mother in Law wants to downsize and is selling her house for oodles and is paying for it.

All great points. Problem is when I was speaking with the field inspector he said we can’t rate your BTU on future appliances you might add. Plus I believe the town of islip has to come and see a pressure test done. So It has to be rated on what you currently have. I am going to call him again today.

Thanks for all the insight everyone. Trust me I truly appreciate you guys walking me through this

 

[JamesW]

If they insist on a 400 meter, ask for the make and model and contact the manufacturer and ask them if the meter is sufficient.

Also, ask them to provide a logical explanation of how they determined that the meter would be big enough.

This means a data sheet from the manufacturer showing the ratings at different conditions and what conditions apply at your location.

They should be able to tell you the meter input pressure and the pressure drop across the meter at your full expected load.

Every heater has a specified minimum inlet pressure and you need to meet this and you want to be a few inches of pressure above the minimum for margin of safety.

The line design is usually based on a 0.5" w.c pressure drop, but you should figure 1 to 2" w.c for margin of safety.

Make sure that the line is sized correctly.

Your installer should "Commission" the heater, which means test everything under load to verify that it is correct.

You should get a "Commissioning" report, which you can use in case of a warranty claim to prove correct gas pressure.

You can also periodically check the flame strength, which should be above 2 µA (Microamps).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AWSProd/sites/raypakcom/documents/100-10000111.pdf

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WebPartners/ProductDocuments/C82C3149-4E82-4C5C-80F7-5CBDF69C59C6.pdf

AVIA – Raypak

Raypak Pool & Spa, Residential and Commercial Hydronic Products -

www.raypak.com

Hayward vs Raypak/Rheem Natural Gas Pressure Requirements

Hi. I'm trying to select a heater to replace an existing Hayward H-350 natural gas heater. I was leaning toward Raypak/Rheem based on all the great reviews here but when I started reviewing the installation manuals I noticed that the Rheem says it requires 6" W.C. upstream of the regulator with...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ForceEdge]

If they insist on a 400 meter, ask for the make and model and contact the manufacturer and ask them if the meter is sufficient.

Also, ask them to provide a logical explanation of how they determined that the meter would be big enough.

This means a data sheet from the manufacturer showing the ratings at different conditions and what conditions apply at your location.

They should be able to tell you the meter input pressure and the pressure drop across the meter at your full expected load.

Every heater has a specified minimum inlet pressure and you need to meet this and you want to be a few inches of pressure above the minimum for margin of safety.

The line design is usually based on a 0.5" w.c pressure drop, but you should figure 1 to 2" w.c for margin of safety.

Make sure that the line is sized correctly.

Your installer should "Commission" the heater, which means test everything under load to verify that it is correct.

You should get a "Commissioning" report, which you can use in case of a warranty claim to prove correct gas pressure.

You can also periodically check the flame strength, which should be above 2 µA (Microamps).

View attachment 533211

View attachment 533212

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AWSProd/sites/raypakcom/documents/100-10000111.pdf

View attachment 533213

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WebPartners/ProductDocuments/C82C3149-4E82-4C5C-80F7-5CBDF69C59C6.pdf

AVIA – Raypak

Raypak Pool & Spa, Residential and Commercial Hydronic Products -

www.raypak.com

Hayward vs Raypak/Rheem Natural Gas Pressure Requirements

Hi. I'm trying to select a heater to replace an existing Hayward H-350 natural gas heater. I was leaning toward Raypak/Rheem based on all the great reviews here but when I started reviewing the installation manuals I noticed that the Rheem says it requires 6" W.C. upstream of the regulator with...

www.troublefreepool.com

Spoke to the field engineer again this morning. After asking him all these questions he’s going to review it again. He’s going to look into possibly installing the 630 meter. I’m really not sure why this is such a hassle but we’ll see where it goes.

Considering all my appliances INCLUDING the pool heater…equals up to about 604,000 BTU

Gas Stove 60,000
Furnace 100,000
Water Heater 40,000
Pool Gas Heater 404,000

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I’m really not sure why this is such a hassle but we’ll see where it goes.

My tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist side of the brain probably would guess that this is, in part, a regulatory issue. You live in NY and it’s no secret that, like a lot of “blue state” areas, there is significant political pressure on reducing sources of carbon emissions. And my guess is utilities probably get judged in some respect on “installed capacity” as well as “actual use”. So if there is any financial consequence to the gas supplier for having more installed capacity than would be necessary, I can see there being push back to install only what is absolutely needed. And that would trickle down on the consumer/homeowner side as having a meter only sized for some fraction of your overall need as opposed to oversizing the meter to meet all possible needs ….

Or …. The field engineer is a moron and can’t do simple math ….

 

[ForceEdge]

My tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist side of the brain probably would guess that this is, in part, a regulatory issue. You live in NY and it’s no secret that, like a lot of “blue state” areas, there is significant political pressure on reducing sources of carbon emissions. And my guess is utilities probably get judged in some respect on “installed capacity” as well as “actual use”. So if there is any financial consequence to the gas supplier for having more installed capacity than would be necessary, I can see there being push back to install only what is absolutely needed. And that would trickle down on the consumer/homeowner side as having a meter only sized for some fraction of your overall need as opposed to oversizing the meter to meet all possible needs ….

Or …. The field engineer is a moron and can’t do simple math ….

I honestly have to agree. Considering these fools are literally trying to ban the sale of gas stoves in NY..that doesn’t sound to far fetched.

It shouldn’t be this difficult. I’m waiting on a response from their side.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Bill1974]

I looked into doing this and was quotes for $10K - $12K for upping my gas service to accommodate a 400Kbtu pool heater. From the meter to the pool equipment is about 200 feet and everything in my yard is in the way. I was told that my meter would need to be changed and the pressure out the meter would be raised to 1-2 psi so the line to the pool didn't need to be like 2" pipe in size. At the pool heater the pressure would be regulated down to the required input pressure. The line feeding the house would also get a regulator to supply everything in the house with the right pressure. I too was concerned with what other things might come up from town inspectors. I ended up putting in a larger electrical service to my pool equipment so I could put in a HP or two when I want. I did the math and a NG heater is about double the operating cost of a HP (based on long island rates a 2 years ago) per BTU. But the HP is a 1/3 as quick at supplying heat. A heater would allow me to get in a few weeks sooner and stay open to maybe mid October with a cover. I still think a NG heater would serve me better (able to raise the temp quickly for the occasional use at the ends of the season), but the cost and possibly hassle to run a gas line were not in the budget at the time. I even looked into getting a separate NG service just for the pool, but it was no cheaper since I already have gas service. This would have been a straight run of 130 feet without anything in the way.

 

[ForceEdge]

My tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist side of the brain probably would guess that this is, in part, a regulatory issue. You live in NY and it’s no secret that, like a lot of “blue state” areas, there is significant political pressure on reducing sources of carbon emissions. And my guess is utilities probably get judged in some respect on “installed capacity” as well as “actual use”. So if there is any financial consequence to the gas supplier for having more installed capacity than would be necessary, I can see there being push back to install only what is absolutely needed. And that would trickle down on the consumer/homeowner side as having a meter only sized for some fraction of your overall need as opposed to oversizing the meter to meet all possible needs ….

Or …. The field engineer is a moron and can’t do simple math ….

If they insist on a 400 meter, ask for the make and model and contact the manufacturer and ask them if the meter is sufficient.

Also, ask them to provide a logical explanation of how they determined that the meter would be big enough.

This means a data sheet from the manufacturer showing the ratings at different conditions and what conditions apply at your location.

They should be able to tell you the meter input pressure and the pressure drop across the meter at your full expected load.

Every heater has a specified minimum inlet pressure and you need to meet this and you want to be a few inches of pressure above the minimum for margin of safety.

The line design is usually based on a 0.5" w.c pressure drop, but you should figure 1 to 2" w.c for margin of safety.

Make sure that the line is sized correctly.

Your installer should "Commission" the heater, which means test everything under load to verify that it is correct.

You should get a "Commissioning" report, which you can use in case of a warranty claim to prove correct gas pressure.

You can also periodically check the flame strength, which should be above 2 µA (Microamps).

View attachment 533211

View attachment 533212

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AWSProd/sites/raypakcom/documents/100-10000111.pdf

View attachment 533213

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WebPartners/ProductDocuments/C82C3149-4E82-4C5C-80F7-5CBDF69C59C6.pdf

AVIA – Raypak

Raypak Pool & Spa, Residential and Commercial Hydronic Products -

www.raypak.com

Hayward vs Raypak/Rheem Natural Gas Pressure Requirements

Hi. I'm trying to select a heater to replace an existing Hayward H-350 natural gas heater. I was leaning toward Raypak/Rheem based on all the great reviews here but when I started reviewing the installation manuals I noticed that the Rheem says it requires 6" W.C. upstream of the regulator with...

www.troublefreepool.com

So guys…just thought I’d let you know. Got some great news. I was approved for an 800 meter upgrade!! I guess sometimes a little persistence can help. Thank you guys so much!