We made it to gunite... finally!

[sll0037]

I just had a conversation with a friend of my dad who is on a gunite crew. He just got through shooting 40 yards of gunite for a pool today, but he also builds pools and he'd actually bid on my pool earlier this year. He'd be willing to take over my pool build if my builder decides he wants out. At least I know I have a solid back up plan.

My current builder has drawn $34k from our budget to get us to "almost ready for gunite" so hopefully I can finish my build with the remaining money without having to invest any more into it or reduce the scope of our design. I got the impression that my current builder wants to get to gunite before he walks away to secure the safety of the pool, but also because that'd allow him to draw another huge chunk of cash, so I really need to get a handle on whether that's his intention during our next conversation tomorrow.

If that's the case, I'd just let him walk now.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

If you need some direction for prepping prior to Shotcrete day and day of application let me know, I may be able to point out some items to have completed prior to the crew showing up and during the process. Or just an explanation of what you are seeing, this process is actually simple when some insight is given.

 

[sll0037]

If you need some direction for prepping prior to Shotcrete day and day of application let me know, I may be able to point out some items to have completed prior to the crew showing up and during the process. Or just an explanation of what you are seeing, this process is actually simple when some insight is given.

It doesn’t look like we’ll do gunite anytime soon (again). The small amount of rain we’ve gotten so far this morning is already causing the deep end wall to collapse.

I’m hoping the builder can pull some strings and really get a plan in place to clean all this up pretty quickly and gunite by mid week next week. We’ll be dry again until next Friday 11/22 then considerable rain for a few days.

 

[sll0037]

I talked to my builder and their plan is to attempt to muck out and repair the rebar/plumbing so we can gunite on Thursday, as we're expecting rain starting Friday 12/22. This seems like a very difficult goal to obtain, but we'll see if they can get it done (pics of damage as of Sunday).

I'm going to use the opportunity to see if I can source 3 new single suction channel drains (instead of the incorrect dual suction channel drains currently installed) and overnight them. That way I can ask the plumber to rip out the wrong ones and install the new ones (using the specified ABS to PVC transition cement, if I can source it locally). If I can overnight two new floor returns, I'll also ask the plumber to replace those and use the correct ABS to PVC transition cement. I think I'll sleep better at night knowing those parts and joints were done correctly, especially considering they buried in the gunite.

 

[kimkats]

Keep a close eye on what they do and make sure they pressure test the lines to make sure they are 100% when they say they are done.

 

[HermanTX]

I talked to my builder and their plan is to attempt to muck out and repair the rebar/plumbing so we can gunite on Thursday, as we're expecting rain starting Friday 12/22. This seems like a very difficult goal to obtain, but we'll see if they can get it done (pics of damage as of Sunday).

Wow, you have had a difficult journey to get gunite. I see lots of PVC that is curved so appears joints may have been stressed. Ensure the plumbing is tested. I like the idea of changing out the drains if there is time to do all of that. Also ensure that skimmer where the cave in occurred is straight and level has not changed.
Keep us posted.

 

[sll0037]

Wow, you have had a difficult journey to get gunite. I see lots of PVC that is curved so appears joints may have been stressed. Ensure the plumbing is tested. I like the idea of changing out the drains if there is time to do all of that. Also ensure that skimmer where the cave in occurred is straight and level has not changed.
Keep us posted.

Yes, it's been a nightmare. The frustrating part is this could all have been prevented with proper planning and a sense of urgency from the builder.

Regarding the plumbing, they left it under pressure at 25lbs last Wednesday 12/20, and it's held at 23 lbs. I do wonder how to really tell what pipes and joints have been stressed and should be replaced. Last time this happened, they only wanted to replace pipes that actually broke apart.

Regarding the skimmers, the form boards in half the pool are gone and certainly not level, but I don't think they intend to replace and relevel them. Maybe there is another way to set them and level them now that they are using?

 

[sll0037]

Interesting Update:

My pool builder has about 10 guys out here mucking out. The plumber came out to set the wall suction drain further out from the rebar and said there no breaks in any of the pipes.

My pool builder plans to gunite tomorrow morning... I really have no idea how that's even possible. He thinks the rebar is going to "bounce back" into place. They'll tie the plumbing back up into place on the rebar and gunite.

I found the single suction channel drains and they are set for delivery tomorrow.

Now it's a matter of whether we delay the gunite until Wednesday to install the right drains. My builder is trying to pressure me into leaving the dual suction drains in so we can gunite in the morning.

I really don't see the harm in waiting until Wednesday for gunite so we can get the drains in tomorrow. That's also assuming they finish repairing all the damage today, which is a HUGE assumption.

The stress is unreal.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I really don't see the harm in waiting until Wednesday for gunite so we can get the drains in tomorrow.

Scheduling gunite is not as simple as just making a call and getting guys to show up. From your previous posts, your dad apparently worked for a gunite outfit. There’s equipment and crew availability as well as scheduling cement pickup and delivery. I’m assuming this is actually shotcrete where you’ll be having the cement premixed at the concrete facility and delivered to the crew doing the work. What’s setup and in place ready to go for tomorrow may not be available on Wednesday in which case the schedule could slip out a few more days. And then there’s the variability of the weather as well as the assumption that the parts will definitely arrive when you expect them … during the holiday season when it’s absolute madness in the parcel shipping world ….

There’s just a whole lot of moving parts to consider so I can see why the PB wants to get it done. Adding delays is only asking for Mr Murphy and his Law to give you a swift kick nads …

 

[sll0037]

Scheduling gunite is not as simple as just making a call and getting guys to show up. From your previous posts, your dad apparently worked for a gunite outfit. There’s equipment and crew availability as well as scheduling cement pickup and delivery. I’m assuming this is actually shotcrete where you’ll be having the cement premixed at the concrete facility and delivered to the crew doing the work. What’s setup and in place ready to go for tomorrow may not be available on Wednesday in which case the schedule could slip out a few more days. And then there’s the variability of the weather as well as the assumption that the parts will definitely arrive when you expect them … during the holiday season when it’s absolute madness in the parcel shipping world ….

There’s just a whole lot of moving parts to consider so I can see why the PB wants to get it done. Adding delays is only asking for Mr Murphy and his Law to give you a swift kick nads …

The builder is the one who said he has gunite on standby and ready for Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday.

It’s all irrelevant anyway because they did not get anywhere near repairing the damage and mucking out today. That works out for the drains since they’ll be delivered tomorrow morning.

The builder now states that 100% they are shooting gunite on Wednesday. He said he’ll have another crew if 10 out here tomorrow to finish repairing.

 

[sll0037]

Here's another twist the pool builder just brought up today... he wants to abandon the plan to shoot the retailing wall with gunite (the majority is 2' high, with another section 3' high).

The entirety of the wall is currently rebar'd at 2' high because they kept "forgetting" to add rebar for the 16' wide 3' high section.

Nonetheless, he came to me today and he told me he wants to just shoot the pool and come back with concrete blocks to build the wall. He'll cut out the retaining wall rebar from the bond beam after the pool is done.

He said his concern is he has no way to form the retaining wall and keep it together with gunite.

My response was:

1. You're just thinking about this the day before gunite?

and

2. Shouldn't you have formed out the retaining wall with that purpose in mind?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Maybe you need to hit the pause button on the project and have a “heart to heart” meeting with this builder? It’s pretty clear that this project is slowly coming off the rails and compromises are being described that are way outside the scope of work. Yes, you can build a wall out of c-block, but it’s not the same as a monolithic gunite structure. There’s night and day differences between the two. You are constantly being short-changed and asked to make compromises under pressure. It’s time for a reset. I suggest you consider that or else this is only going to get worse and you are going to get more and more frustrated.

Good luck.

 

[sll0037]

Maybe you need to hit the pause button on the project and have a “heart to heart” meeting with this builder? It’s pretty clear that this project is slowly coming off the rails and compromises are being described that are way outside the scope of work. Yes, you can build a wall out of c-block, but it’s not the same as a monolithic gunite structure. There’s night and day differences between the two. You are constantly being short-changed and asked to make compromises under pressure. It’s time for a reset. I suggest you consider that or else this is only going to get worse and you are going to get more and more frustrated.

Good luck.

I've already done this at least twice with little positive results.

The owner is too busy selling pools to be intimately involved in our project, which is not what he promised us before we contracted. He's been here once since we started digging. Example: I asked him for an in person meeting last Thursday, but he had plans at his lake house this weekend, so he stated we'd be meeting early this week. Today is his "office day" which he uses to draw out designs and bids. I even offered to drive to his office, but his preference is to stay in his office and draw. He asked me to stay today to "make sure the drains get plumbed correctly." I understand schedules are busy, but you'd think he'd be eager to get out here and straighten things out given "he's bleeding money" from all the mistakes.

His project manager is here regularly, but he's in over is head. He rarely catches mistakes or thinks things through. I'm not one to judge people based on looks, but the poor guy is probably 70 years old and needs to retire.

My last heart to heart with the owner almost resulted in him quitting last Thursday. He ultimately called me back on Friday to apologize, then made the commitment to do everything in his power to gunite this week. All that's really meant is him sending out a large part of his crew from his sprinkler and irrigation company yesterday and today to muck out. The new drains get here any minute now and he's going to have his lawn guys remove the wrong ones and glue in that right ones.

He doesn't plan to call out any other the other trades... excavation, plumbing, rebar. I'd imagine because this is cheaper.

I'm not one to seek a lawsuit, especially in this situation, but I'm on my last straw.

I feel like it'd be easier to fire them now, before gunite, as a new pool builder would be much more likely to take on the project and still warranty everything since it's all still exposed.

The other side of me knows finding another builder to take over won't be easy (though I've spoken to one already). It'll likely mean more money too. And of course, the "pool" will just keep caving in more as each day passes, especially with the rain we're expecting this weekend.

I'm trying to stay kind because at the end of the day, we're all people. But it's getting harder and harder.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

He doesn't plan to call out any other the other trades... excavation, plumbing, rebar. I'd imagine because this is cheaper.

Because none of the other trades are around. It’s a week out from Christmas and all of those guys are off, not working.

I'm not one to seek a lawsuit, especially in this situation, but I'm on my last straw.

I feel like it'd be easier to fire them now, before gunite, as a new pool builder would be much more likely to take on the project and still warranty everything since it's all still exposed.

The other side of me knows finding another builder to take over won't be easy (though I've spoken to one already). It'll likely mean more money too. And of course, the "pool" will just keep caving in more over time, especially with the rain we're expecting this weekend.

Texas is a weird state to build pools in. My understanding is that most “pool builders” don’t need a license and that the state doesn’t have a contractor board to deal with these types of issues.

Also, a lawsuit is fraught with difficulty as just being frustrated with a builder or having the schedule slip is usually not a basis for legal challenge. You’d have to show some kind of very significant defect that is materially different than an industry standard and that the defects have caused you harm (financial). Even if you do have a basis for a lawsuit the judge would likely require that you have to have the builder the chance to correct the defects. Lawsuits are always easy in theory but difficult in practice. @Dirk has been down this road before and he did it in California where there are vastly friendlier consumer-protection laws.

As for finding another builder, that’s also another avenue that sounds plausible but isn’t. No builder in their right mind wants to inherit someone else’s disaster … or the ticked off client that is left behind. And yes, it will cost more as the builder you fired will likely hit you with a bunch of charges for terminating the contract and put a lien on your home until it’s resolved. It’s a bigger mess than what you’re in now.

Maybe third time’s a charm on the heart to heart conversation …

 

[sll0037]

Because none of the other trades are around. It’s a week out from Christmas and all of those guys are off, not working.

This is likely very true, but we've been in this position since Monday November 27th and he's had the same position since then.

Should I be worried that most of the form boards are gone? I'm trying to imagine how they'll get all the walls straight and level (and the skimmers) if a large part of those forms have fallen along with the ground around it. I haven't seen anyone with a laser level since the day the excavators used the laser to set all the forms on dig day.

 

[ajw22]

Either your hole in the ground is ready or gunite or it is not.

I would prepare a checklist and then do an inspection of gunite readiness with the PM or Owner or both. Things don't have to be perfect but have to be good enough.

• Forms in place
• Proper spacing of rebar and plumbing from forms and soil
• Plumbing in proper places.
  • correct lengths
  • pipes not bent or under stress
  • centered as necessary in design
• Skimmers boxed in with rebar and tied to pool structure
  • skimmer mouth properly framed
  • skimmer mouth at correct height for water level and tile line
  • skimmer properly aligned in all axis
• Lights in proper places
  • Light niches protected with covers
  • Lights centered as necessary
• Plumbing passes pressure test

On your retaining wall - will there be any water features or plumbing in that wall?

Why is the retaining wall connected to the pool structure? I have not gone back through this thread to see if there is a design showing where this wall is. Maybe you can drop it here.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

On your retaining wall - will there be any water features or plumbing in that wall?

Why is the retaining wall connected to the pool structure? I have not gone back through this thread to see if there is a design showing where this wall is. Maybe you can drop it here.

Post #1 shows the conceptual designs. The retaining wall is the back wall of the property line and it has sheer descents (3 from what I see) on it. So it is part of the pool plumbing system. Block in my opinion would be bad unless it is tied into the bond beam at rebar and the cavities are filled. Otherwise block will crack along the joints. If you’re going to rebar and fill in block, then you might as well do it all in gunite in the first place. I have block walls around my property, unless they are over-engineered to handle the changes in temperature you get cracks. It’s not something I’d ever want to make a structural element out of if it can be avoided.

 

[Dirk]

Maybe third time’s a charm on the heart to heart conversation …

Usually best to work things out with the original builder, as Matt explains. It also keeps liability contained. If you engage a second builder, you'll never get warranty service, as each will blame the other, legitimately or not.

That said, twice now (two different building issues, two different contractors) I've given the original contractor every opportunity to fix his mistake (with all the appropriate notices and paperwork), and after waiting a more than reasonable amount of time, I had the problem fixed by another. Then later successfully sued the original contractors for the cost. I would guess that I am in the rare percentile where this worked, and as mentioned, I'm in CA, so things are very pro-consumer here. Plus, the fix was not particularly complicated (replaster for my pool, and blown in insulation for my attic) and happened many years after the original build was completed. Switching contractors mid-build would be a considerably bigger deal, if even possible.

I wouldn't finish a website that someone else started. How could I guarantee my work? How could I even figure out what the previous guy did, or if he did it right? A construction project would be 10x worse. A pool construction project would be 100x!

 

[ajw22]

Post #1 shows the conceptual designs. The retaining wall is the back wall of the property line and it has sheer descents (3 from what I see) on it. So it is part of the pool plumbing system. Block in my opinion would be bad unless it is tied into the bond beam at rebar and the cavities are filled. Otherwise block will crack along the joints. If you’re going to rebar and fill in block, then you might as well do it all in gunite in the first place. I have block walls around my property, unless they are over-engineered to handle the changes in temperature you get cracks. It’s not something I’d ever want to make a structural element out of if it can be avoided.

Matt picked up on where I was going.

I would say you have a water features wall, not a retaining wall.

A block wall can move independent of the pool and put stress on the pipes as the pool structure and block wall move in different directions. That can lead to cracks in pipes that are buried in walls.

If blocks were used I would ask where the blocks are being placed? On the bond beam or on soil?

If the blocks are placed on the bond beam has the bond beam been reinforced in that area to handle the weight of the blocks and its concrete fill?

If the blocks are placed on soil next to the pool then the wall will move with the soil independent of the pool and stress the pipes.

This all points to the engineering was done (If any real engineering was done) planning for the water feature wall being gunite pool structure. Now the builder wants to change to block wall without any revised engineering. That winging it is a big red flag to me.

A block wall could be ok with the proper engineering. A gunite wall is better then a block wall.

 

[sll0037]

The wall is a little bit of both a retaining wall and a water feature wall. It does have three sheer descents integrated into it.

As others have pointed out, my yard slopes from the rear fence toward my house. At it's highest point, I would say the yard is about a foot above grade relative to the pool.

They "built" a wall to shoot gunite against for the 2' wall today, but they have still not set the three new drains. They are having massive difficulties getting them set at the correct height (started on the spa drain a couple hours ago and they still aren't done with that one). I'm certain a plumber would of had all three done by now, but he refuses to call the plumber back out. I imagine it's a cost thing.

I'll post a few pictures of the current state to see if anyone here thinks we are ready for gunite, which is still on schedule for tomorrow.