We made it to gunite... finally!

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[sll0037]

The builder still plans to gunite tomorrow.

Only the spa drain was set today and very crooked. The plan to replace the wall suction and the pool drain while the gunite crew is shooting different parts of the pool.

We won't be able to complete a pressure test prior to gunite since the drains are being placed during gunite.

The backer board for half the retaining wall looks like a 5th grader built it with 2x4's extending into the pool walls.

It's difficult to tell whether we have proper rebar clearance anywhere because the place is a disaster. We still have lose soil pushing against the plywood toward the rebar in every case, more in some spots vs others. We can't remove that board to shoot gunite because of all the loose soil behind it.

I really don't see how you get the current state of the pool good enough for gunite without ripping everything out and starting over. I haven't seen the level of skill from his sprinkler guys to give me any confidence I'm going to end up with a structurally sound pool after tomorrow.

Of course, the builder has zero worries. He's eager to just bury all the problems behind gunite.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Can you hire a Shotcrete inspector for tomorrow to be an independent consultant of the work being performed?

 

[HermanTX]

Unfortunately, my dad isn’t actually part of the gunite crew. He’s a CDL driver who’s responsible for making runs to the quarry to pick up the sand and gravel they used to make the gunite.

Of course, he’s very good friends with all the gunite crews. I almost hired one of them to build my pool, but he’d just started building pools and I didn’t want to hire a completely new outfit. Even so, the same friend has been super helpful with any questions I’ve had since we started with this builder.

I’m sure one of them would come here for me that day, but the problem is they’d likely be shooting pools the same day making that arrangement difficult.

Have you made contact with one of the friends of your father to be present on day of gunite. I think you need another impartial set of eyes on this.

 

[sll0037]

Can you hire a Shotcrete inspector for tomorrow to be an independent consultant of the work being performed?

Have you made contact with one of the friends of your father to be present on day of gunite. I think you need another impartial set of eyes on this.

I haven't been able to get one of my father's friend to come for gunite because they'll be shooting pools tomorrow as well.

I think I'd be hard pressed to get an independent consultant here tomorrow at 7a for the shoot. FYI, it is indeed gunite and not shotcrete.

 

[Newdude]

I got nothin for you but well wishes.

 

[sll0037]

I got nothin for you but well wishes.

View attachment 545231

LOL! Thank you for that. It's been the first time I've smiled in a while. I barely even sleep these days given the stress of this disaster.

At the moment, I'm contemplating calling the builder and stopping the entire project.

There is nothing worse that hearing crews cursing and screaming all day about how they've never done this kind of work before on a pool. It doesn't exactly give you the confidence that you're getting a structurally sound pool.

 

[sll0037]

Either your hole in the ground is ready or gunite or it is not.

I would prepare a checklist and then do an inspection of gunite readiness with the PM or Owner or both. Things don't have to be perfect but have to be good enough.

• Forms in place
• Proper spacing of rebar and plumbing from forms and soil
• Plumbing in proper places.
  • correct lengths
  • pipes not bent or under stress
  • centered as necessary in design
• Skimmers boxed in with rebar and tied to pool structure
  • skimmer mouth properly framed
  • skimmer mouth at correct height for water level and tile line
  • skimmer properly aligned in all axis
• Lights in proper places
  • Light niches protected with covers
  • Lights centered as necessary
• Plumbing passes pressure test

On your retaining wall - will there be any water features or plumbing in that wall?

Why is the retaining wall connected to the pool structure? I have not gone back through this thread to see if there is a design showing where this wall is. Maybe you can drop it here.

• Forms in place
  • Questionable
• Proper spacing of rebar and plumbing from forms and soil
  • Questionable
• Plumbing in proper places. No
  • correct lengths
  • pipes not bent or under stress
  • centered as necessary in design Only 1 of 3 drains is set, and its very crooked
• Skimmers boxed in with rebar and tied to pool structure No
  • skimmer mouth properly framed
  • skimmer mouth at correct height for water level and tile line
  • skimmer properly aligned in all axis
  • One of our skimmers is literally hanging in the air, off axis, not centered and likely not at the correct height
• Lights in proper places
  • Light niches protected with covers
  • Lights centered as necessary
  • Most of the pipes sticking out from the walls are best described as wonky, due to all the cave ins. Not centered, No leveled vertically or horizontally.
• Plumbing passes pressure test
  • No. A new pressure test won't be possible until after gunite, as two of the drains are actually being set during gunite.

 

[proavia]

Looking at all the big red flags you posted above will provide your answer on whether to call it off or not.
An irrigation crew doesn't know about pool plumbing. The builder is trying to cheap out and is continuing to do shoddy work.

 

[sll0037]

Looking at all the big red flags you posted above will provide your answer on whether to call it off or not.
An irrigation crew doesn't know about pool plumbing. The builder is trying to cheap out and is continuing to do shoddy work.

I understand we likely don't have legal experts here, but what might the ramifications be if I call off all work (i.e. gunite tomorrow). If the pool doesn't dry cave by Thursday, it will definitely cave in again on Friday when it rains again.

That's the biggest issue I'm having right now. I KNOW we will essentially be resetting to square one after this weekend, and I imagine the pool builder might walk away or ask me to foot the bill to repair the damage moving forward.

 

[proavia]

I guess you don't know until you call him.
If stuff is out of square and not fixed before gunite, it will be out of square after gunite - and be encapsulated in gunite.

Are the walls square or still bowed?
How will they rectify a recently glued plumbing joint that might leak? Do they intend to do another pressure test after gunite is applied?

 

[ajw22]

I cannot see where the outside edges of your bond beam will run and how thick your bond beam will be all around the pool. Usually you can visualize it from the edge of the dirt walls to about 3 inches inside of the rebar and that is the way the gunite will be shot.

Take for example this pic around this skimmer. I drew some colored lines for discussion.

There is a board along the red line. Is that the inside or the outside of the bond beam?

There is a pipe to the left of the red line. Will that be encapsulated by gunite or be outside the bond beam?

Is gunite expected to fill that entire void as outlined by the yellow line?

I would expect the gunite to box the skimmer as shown by the blue line. And there is much less rebar around the skimmer box then what we typically see.

Then how does the yellow line or blue line indicating a wall run into the jumble of rebar at the bottom of the picture?

I don't see how the gunite crew knows how to form the walls based on the layout of the dirt and rebar. Now if they start working they will do something but it may not be what you expect.

And do you have a fixed price for gunite or will you be billed by the truckload? Filling those voids with gunite will run the tab up.

See if you can draw the inside and outside walls of the entire structure based on following the rebar, forms, and dirt. I can't in some areas.

 

[sll0037]

I guess you don't know until you call him.
If stuff is out of square and not fixed before gunite, it will be out of square after gunite - and be encapsulated in gunite.

Are the walls square or still bowed?
How will they rectify a recently glued plumbing joint that might leak? Do they intend to do another pressure test after gunite is applied?

The walls are not square at all. I honestly don't see how it would ever be square again without tearing everything out and starting over.

All the owner keeps saying is he's not worried about leaks. His guys know how to glue pipes together. They do it all day.

We will have another pressure test after gunite, but finding a leak would be Dang near impossible.

Gunite would mean the builder would draw another huge sum of money from our loan, and given his responses thus far, I'd expect the shoddy work/fixes to continue.

Of course, I understand the need and want to gunite. I don't like cave-ins either, but at what cost is this rush/hack job.

 

[sll0037]

I cannot see where the outside edges of your bond beam will run and how thick your bond beam will be all around the pool. Usually you can visualize it from the edge of the dirt walls to about 3 inches inside of the rebar and that is the way the gunite will be shot.

Take for example this pic around this skimmer. I drew some colored lines for discussion.

There is a board along the red line. Is that the inside or the outside of the bond beam?

There is a pipe to the left of the red line. Will that be encapsulated by gunite or be outside the bond beam?

Is gunite expected to fill that entire void as outlined by the yellow line?

I would expect the gunite to box the skimmer as shown by the blue line. And there is much less rebar around the skimmer box then what we typically see.

Then how does the yellow line or blue line indicating a wall run into the jumble of rebar at the bottom of the picture?

I don't see how the gunite crew knows how to form the walls based on the layout of the dirt and rebar. Now if they start working they will do something but it may not be what you expect.

And do you have a fixed price for gunite or will you be billed by the truckload? Filling those voids with gunite will run the tab up.

See if you can draw the inside and outside walls of the entire structure based on following the rebar, forms, and dirt. I can't in some areas.

View attachment 545242

I'm honestly having the same concerns and issues visualizing this as well.

Up until today the builder said they will fill all the voids with gunite, then today he started mentioning back filling with dirt after gunite. The entire structure has moved and eroded so much, but the builder just keeps saying the gunite crew will fix everything.

All of the gunite cost is on the builder, not me.

 

[sll0037]

I cannot see where the outside edges of your bond beam will run and how thick your bond beam will be all around the pool. Usually you can visualize it from the edge of the dirt walls to about 3 inches inside of the rebar and that is the way the gunite will be shot.

Take for example this pic around this skimmer. I drew some colored lines for discussion.

There is a board along the red line. Is that the inside or the outside of the bond beam?

There is a pipe to the left of the red line. Will that be encapsulated by gunite or be outside the bond beam?

Is gunite expected to fill that entire void as outlined by the yellow line?

I would expect the gunite to box the skimmer as shown by the blue line. And there is much less rebar around the skimmer box then what we typically see.

Then how does the yellow line or blue line indicating a wall run into the jumble of rebar at the bottom of the picture?

I don't see how the gunite crew knows how to form the walls based on the layout of the dirt and rebar. Now if they start working they will do something but it may not be what you expect.

And do you have a fixed price for gunite or will you be billed by the truckload? Filling those voids with gunite will run the tab up.

See if you can draw the inside and outside walls of the entire structure based on following the rebar, forms, and dirt. I can't in some areas.

View attachment 545242

Take for example this pic around this skimmer. I drew some colored lines for discussion.

There is a board along the red line. Is that the inside or the outside of the bond beam?

• That board is supposed to be the back of the bond beam.

There is a pipe to the left of the red line. Will that be encapsulated by gunite or be outside the bond beam?

• That skimmer line was supposed to be encapsulated by the gunite.

Is gunite expected to fill that entire void as outlined by the yellow line?

• To be determined, but the builder initially said those voids would be filled with gunite.

I would expect the gunite to box the skimmer as shown by the blue line. And there is much less rebar around the skimmer box then what we typically see.

• We did originally have a box around that skimmer, but the same amount of rebar (I believe)

Then how does the yellow line or blue line indicating a wall run into the jumble of rebar at the bottom of the picture?

• This specific wall is the deep end wall, which had a bench running all the way across it. The dirt forming the bench is all gone. They added a little more rebar into the bench/wall void.

 

[ajw22]

Up until today the builder said they will fill all the voids with gunite, then today he started mentioning back filling with dirt after gunite. The entire structure has moved and eroded so much, but the builder just keeps saying the gunite crew will fix everything.

If you end up going forward with the gunite tomorrow I would meet with the foreman of the gunite crew before they start. Walk the entire site with him and discuss EXACTLY how he will handle every wall. If he is comfortable doing it as you discuss then maybe let it rip.

I think there is a good chance the gunite foreman will shake his head and say can't be done.

All of the gunite cost is on the builder, not me.

My worry is when a builder is on a money losing job he is going to start cutting quality in other areas to make up for it.

 

[ajw22]

Is this inside the pool or outside the pool?



Looks like outside the pool so why is this rebar running past the edges of the pool?

And how will the gunite be formed in this area?

• That board is supposed to be the back of the bond beam.
• That skimmer line was supposed to be encapsulated by the gunite.

Back of the bond beam meaning outside edge?

But that pipe is outside of the board so how will it be encapsulated?

If you or the PM/Builder cannot tell the gunite crew exactly what you expect them to do they are going to make up their own surprises on how they fix it.

 

[sll0037]

If you end up going forward with the gunite tomorrow I would meet with the foreman of the gunite crew before they start. Walk the entire site with him and discuss EXACTLY how he will handle every wall. If he is comfortable doing it as you discuss then maybe let it rip.

I think there is a good chance the gunite foreman will shake his head and say can't be done.



My worry is when a builder is on a money losing job he is going to start cutting quality in other areas to make up for it.

This is exactly what the builder has told me. He’s currently in the negative vs the $35k he’s been paid to get us to gunite.

I had my father’s friend guesstimate excavation, rebar, and plumbing for my pool and he thinks the cost is about $20k but maybe the builder has run through the other $15k with his shoddy repairs. The fact that he keeps sending his landscaping crew verifies this idea.

I might wait to see if the gunite crew rejects the job to cover myself. They will need to do a lot of out of scope work anyway, like adding rebar to the water feature wall to make the 16’ wide 3’ high section.

The builder also said they’ll have to add pegboard in lots of places to shoot against. And they’ll need to lift the rebar in places with their jack. The list goes on.

Here is a picture from a distance of what the deep end wall looked like earlier in the project.

 

[sll0037]

Is this inside the pool or outside the pool?

View attachment 545244

Looks like outside the pool so why is this rebar running past the edges of the pool?

This is outside the pool. It's the retain wall that extends a few feet past the edge of the pool to divert water away from the pool and down the swell that runs down that side of my house.

And how will the gunite be formed in this area?

Supposedly the gunite crew will peg board and form this wall to shoot the gunite.

Back of the bond beam meaning outside edge?

But that pipe is outside of the board so how will it be encapsulated?

If you or the PM/Builder cannot tell the gunite crew exactly what you expect them to do they are going to make up their own surprises on how they fix it.

Correct. The outside of the wall. The board does not run up the entire height of the wall in any part of the pool where you see boards which was a concern I had when I saw his sprinkler crew "forming" those walls. I've always seen the boards span the entire length and height of the walls in situations like this.

The plumbing is above the boards in that sections.