Barkyman

Well-known member
May 29, 2022
91
NJ
Pool Size
27000
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Hi.

I am going to be putting in an in-ground Ell shape pool (750sqft surface area) and want to install have solar heat. Trying to find some resources on distance, panel sq ft, height, heat loss calculations, pvc size, pump requirements needed. Will be running the solar line about 120ft and height of 30ft to the roof. Any help with best controller, valve switch, panels etc would be great.

I have been looking at the pentair solar control but was hoping for any feedback or other options.
 
I have one automation controller, a Pentair EasyTouch, that controls everything, including solar. It pairs with my Pentair 3HP IntelliFlo pump, SWG and all the valve actuators (also Pentair) and temperature sensors than are required to heat, sanitize and clean my pool. I can control everything at the pad, from inside my home on a wall mounted controller and on any of my computers and mobile devices, including from anywhere in the world. Pentair also makes a newer version controller, the IntelliCenter, that does all that, too.

If it's in the budget, that's what I would recommend.

You can certainly run a pool manually, even solar, and with a smaller, less expensive pump. But you'll be running to the pad several times a day to do so. Or you could go with Pentair's SolarTouch, for control of the solar heating system only. I don't have any experience with that unit, but I've heard it is difficult to program. Pentair also has something called SunTouch, which I just today discovered. Perhaps that is an improved version of the SolarTouch. Sorry, I don't know anything about that one, either. It looks like it can do solar, pump and SWG. I would recommend you download the available owner manuals on IntelliCenter, EasyTouch, SunTouch and SolarTouch. Read 'em, and gain a full understanding or what they each can do (any can't do). I wish I had gotten that advice before I purchased my EasyTouch PSL4. I didn't know at the time what that could do, or what I would later want it to be able to do. It turned out to be the wrong unit for me (I've since upgraded). Pool automation is like buying a computer: you first figure out what current technology allows (in terms of what functionality is possible), then you decide what of all those capabilities you want for yourself, then you figure out what controller can do all those things at a price you can afford.

@mas985 can help with the mechanics, but I expect 2" PVC will be fine. I avoided all calculations by installing a FlowVis flow meter. With my solar panel manufacturer's spec for optimum flow rate, a variable speed pump and the flow meter, it was a very simple matter to adjust the pump's RPM to achieve a flow rate that assures me of the most cost effective heating possible. I also used the manufacturer's specs to determine how many panels I needed for my size pool. I didn't delve into things like heat loss or pump head. I use 8 panels for a 12K gallon pool and get a 5-10° bump on most "swim season" days. I don't heat my pool year-round. 3HP could probably serve my panels if they were across town! OK, that's a slight exaggeration, but with a 3HP variable-speed pump, you'll pretty much be covered.

That's pretty much what I know about the subject! That, and what I learned about plumbing solar heating systems from the following website (along with some other internet research). I installed my system myself, using the very highly-regarded Heliocol brand of panels, and saved myself about $7K. Heliocol has an excellent system of connecting and mounting panels, which has so far proven maintenance free. If you poke around on h2otsun, you'll find some excellent diagrams that explain how solar works, and how best to install the panels and plumbing.


That all said, I used all premium products. My Pentair gear and the Heliocol panels and even the black UV PVC I used on the roof come with a permium price to match their quality...
 
Hi.

I am going to be putting in an in-ground Ell shape pool (750sqft surface area) and want to install have solar heat. Trying to find some resources on distance, panel sq ft, height, heat loss calculations, pvc size, pump requirements needed. Will be running the solar line about 120ft and height of 30ft to the roof. Any help with best controller, valve switch, panels etc would be great.
For 30' high installation, almost any pump will do. I used to run my panels which were 25' high with a 1/2 HP pump. You don't really need much.

If you are concerned about the heat loss in the pipes because of the long runs, I wouldn't get too concerned. The flow rate should be high enough where the heat loss is insignificant.

As for pipe size, that depends on the flow rate through the pipes which then depends on the panel area. Generally, you should target about 0.1 GPM/sq-ft of panels. If you have a 100% panel/pool surface area, that would require about 75 GPM which 2" pipe is sufficient but 2.5" would probably be a better choice. The real issue with long solar runs is that there is pressure loss due to the pipe and the VRV at the top of the panels will require positive pressure to remain closed. So if you goal is to be able to run a VS pump on as low a speed as possible while using solar, then I would suggest going with the larger pipe.

Heat transfer tools are located here:

 
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You get freezing temps in NJ, right? In addition to meeting all your other specs (great job, Mark!), a big consideration is how the panels and all the pipe will drain. Generally, solar panels and their supply/return plumbing should drain as much as possible at the end of each day. Exceptions can be accommodated, but that's the ideal.

You certainly need to drain everything for winter. Panels should be skewed* on the roof so that they drain thoroughly. That skew also assures maximum heat output, so it's important for that, too (you'll learn why and how from that link I gave you). Then the plumbing on the roof should also be angled to drain as much as possible. The plumbing from the pad to the roof can retain water, but it'll need to be drained for winter. You could do that by sloping the pipe, or by blowing it out. Just think through all that as you plan the install.

* By "skew" I mean turned relative to the ridge of the roof. So they should be both tilted (by the angle of the roof) and turned (skewed) a bit as well. Two different angles. Diagrams on that website explain all that and why it's important.
 
This was great! Thank you so much for your help! I was looking at the SolarTouch but still need to do some research on the panels - any other brands suggested. The pump will be a VS Pentair, but I need to confirm the exact model being installed. I measured the roof and I can get about 70% coverage w the panels to pool surface area so I think that works.

Great point about the slight angle given the slop of the roof takes care of the one slope. Anyone see issues with drilling the hole into the line for the pool temperature reading after the filter? Is there a better way to do that. Also, I guess you can get extra wire to run the solar temp reader to the top of the panels of it's 150ft away?

Thanks again - this was fantastic.
 
Yes I do get freezing temps - I would need to blow the lines out as you mentioned and likely have a connection I can access to do that when designing the install.

Also - by wiring the control panel to the pump I assume that would give me the highest efficiency if I am using the solar pretty frequent for a solid 5 months.
 
I just programmed a solartouch today actually had a customer diy solar panels I just tied it into the equipment. The solartouch is super simple to program. It’s the sun touch that are a pain.
Ah, I'll try to remember that, as I had that wrong. Thx.
 
Also - by wiring the control panel to the pump I assume that would give me the highest efficiency if I am using the solar pretty frequent for a solid 5 months.
You want some sort of solar controller. It should be able to change the pump's RPM on the fly, depending on the panels being active or not, for maximum energy and heating efficiency.
 

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Great point about the slight angle given the slop of the roof takes care of the one slope. Anyone see issues with drilling the hole into the line for the pool temperature reading after the filter? Is there a better way to do that. Also, I guess you can get extra wire to run the solar temp reader to the top of the panels of it's 150ft away?
My water temp sensor is mounted with a clamp and there was a hole drilled in a pipe to make that work. That's standard. Mine is in-between my pump and my filter (so, before the filter). I'm not sure if that makes a difference. I suppose the closer to the pool it is would technically make it more accurate?

Yes, you can extend the roof-top sensor wire. I like to solder those types of outdoor splices to make them more robust. Then seal the splice up with heat shrink tubing. If that's not in your skillset, use outdoor wire nuts that have the gel inside them (available in the landscaping timer/wiring section). That helps minimizes corrosion. As much as I could I "hid" the wire from the sun, behind or under the pipes leading to the panels. And I no longer use the nylon zip ties, not even the "UV" ones. They won't last on the roof. I tie up everything outside with stainless steel wire. That'll outlast everything else. This stuff:

 
150ft away?
While it's ideal to place the roof-top sensor next to the panels, it doesn't have to be there. It's not measuring the panels, it's measuring the available heat on the roof. So if the 150' stretch gives you trouble, and you have a closer roof with the same or similar roofing material, you can place the sensor there. You just have to make sure that the alternate location mimics where the panels are in terms of sun and shade exposure.
 
Great! Thanks everyone as this is very helpful. If anyone else has some solar panel recommendations for DYI install would be great to know!
 
Also, any thoughts on having 70% coverage or ~530sq ft panels for 750sqft pool surface? From what I read that seems to be in the range.
 
Also, any thoughts on having 70% coverage or ~530sq ft panels for 750sqft pool surface? From what I read that seems to be in the range.
I can't remember that math, but here's some alternate ideas.

- You can have separate panel arrays, so you could add more panels elsewhere and plumb them together.

- Solar water heating panels are no where near as sensitive to sun angle as are PV solar panels (electric generating), which have to be dead-on to the sun. Water heating panels can be "anywhere close." PV panels have to take into account 12 months of exposure, too. Water heating panels are mostly used only in swim season, when the sun is pretty much overhead anyway. Which means you might find very little difference where on the roof you mount. Mine are on the north side of my roof, because I wanted to save the south side for my PV solar. My water heating panels work perfectly fine on the north side. During my swim season, I get more sun in the morning and evening on the north side than I do on the south side. Mid day, the sun is basically directly overhead.

Point being, you might have more space on your roof than you think. More panels make more heat! (Of course, more panels take more pump energy, so it's a trade off and there will be a point of diminishing return.) If it helps, I have eight 12' panels for a 12K pool. That gets me 5-10 degrees.

If you do a little pre-planning, and a second array is a possibility, you could start with what you've got, and see how it works, but leave a way to add a second array. That might mean running pipes this way instead of that way, or adding in some tees, etc. Then if you're not getting enough heat, adding a second array will be that much easier.
 
Great - thanks for the information. I actually reached out to Ken from H20t Sun and he was very helpful. He actually recommended that I DO NOT use his product, but only his mounting system. Given my roof angle and shingles, he recommended a few other brands as the cost benefit is not in his product. He did look my house up and show me the roofs that are best to use. He was only focused on roofs facing due south as that is the optimal solar output. To your point above I do have a roof facing west which I might use.

Would anyone know how to connect two roofs and still getting drainage if its an A frame roof over my garage? I would need the panels on both sides of the angled roof ---> A <--- but how do I get them to drain properly.
 
Read the following page (from your pal Ken). Then read it again. It taught me most of what I know about solar and just about everything I needed to learn to install my system correctly.

Pay close attention to the bit about tilting your panels, so that they both heat most efficiently and drain correctly. And then the other bit about how to plumb two separate arrays together.

 
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