So this happened

[Newdude]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but to me this points at a benefit of using a gravel base beneath pavers. At this stage it would have been much easier to tweak the slopes to get them how you want.

What is this world coming to, that, 'This way will be easier for me to fix my screwups' is a selling point for the contractor.

Yeah that's going to be tough. I'm interested to see what the concrete guy recommends.

Me TOO. He blew off raising the house side as easy peasy and a non issue. But he had a whole different vibe about raising the pool side. So I was out there trying to figure out why one worked and one didn't. All I could come up with was the extra pitch angles of the pool side, whereas by the house its just a one direction slope for the first bunch of feet.

But I don't do this for a living. Yet.

 

[dleonard1122]

But I don't do this for a living. Yet.

I don't know if I've become more or less interested in the idea of doing this work for a living since taking on a pool. With how lucrative the contracts are and understanding how far basic communication and a bare minimum level of quality control can really set you apart from the pack it sounds promising. On the other hand, after doing it once I'm not sure I'll ever want to do it again.

 

[ajw22]

So changing gears a little. My main concern is not the runoff into the pool. It's the runoff behind the liner. The liner track is secured with masonry screws against the imperfect shell. All of the hose water in that area last night went right under the liner track and behind the liner. It blistered the liner on its way down and until I get in there, I'm not sure it made its way out yet.

If this was a regular occurrence, I'd be worried about my sand hopper angles and/or floor washing out. Or in a big storm, the liner floating.

How much water will get under the patio stones to have nowhere else to go ?

Does the overwhelming majority of it runoff the top ?

Does the polymeric sand help keep the water over and not under ?

Should I run a bead of construction adhesive along the liner track seam so that any water that finds its way down there can't get behind the liner?

I appreciate all thoughts as always. Y'alls have made this FAR more keep-Dude-out-of-jail-y.

Let’s see if we can get @jimmythegreek on this if he takes a break.

 

[Bperry]

So changing gears a little. My main concern is not the runoff into the pool. It's the runoff behind the liner. The liner track is secured with masonry screws against the imperfect shell. All of the hose water in that area last night went right under the liner track and behind the liner. It blistered the liner on its way down and until I get in there, I'm not sure it made its way out yet.

If this was a regular occurrence, I'd be worried about my sand hopper angles and/or floor washing out. Or in a big storm, the liner floating.

How much water will get under the patio stones to have nowhere else to go ?

Does the overwhelming majority of it runoff the top ?

Does the polymeric sand help keep the water over and not under ?

Should I run a bead of construction adhesive along the liner track seam so that any water that finds its way down there can't get behind the liner?

I appreciate all thoughts as always. Y'alls have made this FAR more keep-Dude-out-of-jail-y.

Think of polymeric sand like the zeo sand or glass sand in a pool filter. It does the same thing as regular sand at much higher cost. The polymeric sand cracks just like anything else and will let water through.

 

[wireform]

Maybe this kind of thing which I've seen used between blacktop driveway and a concrete house wall where there was seepage. There was a saw cut line where it went into the blacktop surface and then siliconed so water couldn't get around. It's been 10 years since and still works. Here it would be hidden beneath all.

 

[Newdude]

The Patio guy stated with full authority that zero water will get under the pavers. But he also got tripped up easily when I started pressing for more detailed answers, kinda like asking similar questions anywhere else..... he kept quoting what was written on the bucket. Ever ask the Best buy guy about a laptop and they look at the tag to recite the specs, but that wasn't your question ? Yeah. Like that.

But if it's true and the water stays uptop, while drainage into the pool is not my first choice, its also no worse than everything that came off my solar cover at the old place. It would be better actually with much less dust/debris because of the yard, and half the square footage dumping it. But that's only if I can get assurance no water will find its way behind the liner.

 

[ajw22]

You cannot prevent all runoff water from not going into the pool. All you can do is your best to minimize it.

I would consider putting the drain into your pavers back from your steps so the drain diverts the water behind it and then the remaining water between the drain and the pool flows either into the drain or the pool.

 

[Toxophilite]

If they are going to sand set the pavers, there should be an amount of sand laid to screed and level pavers, which will gap a bit between slab and pavers. They should then also mortar the outer perimeter pavers to keep sand from working out from under. If you don't have any pooling water, the majority water should shed the top of pavers.

 

[Kimmielea71]

OK so I road tested the patio pitch with a hose. A bit extreme but the puddle doesn't lie. Or actually, unfortunately, the puddle did lie there.

Over all it mostly works. Close to the pool the downhill from the house overpowers the downhill from the pool and it gets pushed behind the liner track.


View attachment 444942


Is there a way to seal the liner track to the shell so that any water that gets down there has to go over the liner ? Construction adhesive maybe ? Or does the coping mortar effectively seal it ?

Or is such little water going to make it under the stones that I'm overthinking it ?

Soooo, I have been dealing with water getting behind my liner for 11 years now. I had decided it had to do with the pool install back in 1979 (and the then owner of the house working as a secretary for the pool company than installed it and some corners were cut ) Then this year I was power washing the concrete around the pool and noticed an area, about 2-3 feet wide, that the water ran right into the pool. I never noticed this before, since I'm not usually outside when it rains LOL. At this point, no water was behind the liner. After a few weeks of heavy rains, water behind the liner! After draining the water and putting the liner back in track, I decided to try something... I put liner lock all along the side of the pool where I saw the water had run into the pool. That was a month ago. We have had a few storms since then, but knock on wood, so far no more water behind the liner.
Moral of my story, run to Amazon and order liner lock! I already decided when it's time to replace the liner, I'm just going to add it all they way around the pool. It actually looks more finished on the side that has the liner lock.

 

[Newdude]

Moral of my story, run to Amazon and order liner lock!

Already done all the way around. But thanks for the thoughts.

My water is going under the whole track to get behind the liner.

Best wishes for yours.

This edge



The Patio guy was floored that water got behind the liner and said he'd never seen that in his years, but he's also long gone soon and how many times were they unable to slope away from the pool to cause it ?

He suggested calling PB, which I promptly pointed out they would be quick to blame the patio guy for directing water towards the pool.

He then suggested running a bead of silicone under the liner track. I suggested something more robust and he gladly agreed to use construction adhesive. If it permanently seals the edge then it will do the trick, if any water ever gets under the patio. The jury is still out if that is a thing or not.

 

[wireform]

I think you want to be careful what adhesive you use there because the next time you need to remove it to make a small adjustment it will cause a big job. I'm not for anything that will cause that kind of repair.

 

[Newdude]

I think you want to be careful what adhesive you use there because the next time you need to remove it to make a small adjustment it will cause a big job.

Bigger than removing the coping stones that are glued to it with the same construction adhesive? I believe the liner tracks will be ruined in order to ever see them again. Removing and replacing the coping will be the big expense of the job when the time comes. (If I'm seeing it correctly)

They fixed the other spots with some cement like mix. I am SO glad I went buck wild with the spray paint so there were no questions while they were here.




Waiting for it to be good and dry before the obligatory road testing.

Will report back after I get thought of patio guy for the pool edge part.

 

[wireform]

Bigger than removing the coping stones that are glued to it with the same construction adhesive? I believe the liner tracks will be ruined in order to ever see them again. Removing and replacing the coping will be the big expense of the job when the time comes. (If I'm seeing it correctly)

got it

 

[Jaffles]

And the beat goes on....

I was going to suggest grinding the cement from pools edge back to centre creating a low valley across the slab, but see they have gone the levelling approach.

If it were me I'd still put a drain in across the deck from behind the stairs. The water from that line into the pool would be negligible compared to the pool catchment. But if pavers had fall back to a drain than it would be virtually nothing.

Can the gap in the shell and liner be taped before the paver base goes over the top. It probably won't stick great to the cement buy if it were 2" wide than the water may flow elsewhere, or back to drain.

 

[Newdude]

The dog didn't feel the need to wait to test the patch. I guess it's his now.

If it were me I'd still put a drain in across the deck from behind the stairs. The water from that line into the pool would be negligible compared to the pool catchment. But if pavers had fall back to a drain than it would be virtually nothing

I'm seriously considering it. However, the channel drain won't help any water underneath, if there is any. If no water gets under there, then it's much less necessary.

Then I was thinking it may not last a slushy winter once clogged and frozen. I briefly mentioned the possibility to the patio guy yesterday and he was adamant he is against drains. So far, ice is all I can come up with as to why.

Can the gap in the shell and liner be taped before the paver base goes over the top. It probably won't stick great to the cement buy if it were 2" wide than the water may flow elsewhere, or back to drain.

Tape would breakdown too soon. Silicone would last a couple years longer. Construction adhesive will hopefully outlast the liner and if it works, we can do it again next time.

 

[ajw22]

I briefly mentioned the possibility to the patio guy yesterday and he was adamant he is against drains. So far, ice is all I can come up with as to why.

Does the drain strip you are considering have a top cap that clips off for cleanout?

Some strip drain tops cannot be removed and over time they clog from dirt on them and are impossible to clean out.

 

[JamesW]

The pool should have been built higher and the deck should slope away from the pool and away from the house to a common low point somewhere in the middle where you would have a properly sized channel drain going into a French drain or a dry well with a pump if the French drain would not remove the water adequately.

 

[Toxophilite]

The pool should have been built higher and the deck should slope away from the pool and away from the house to a common low point somewhere in the middle where you would have a properly sized channel drain going into a French drain or a dry well with a pump if the French drain would not remove the water adequately.

Based on my one pool build and PB's instructions on method, the final pool height is initially shot from house/porch elevation. The two will always be in agreement on elevation issue.

 

[Orion7319]

This edge

View attachment 445189

The Patio guy was floored that water got behind the liner and said he'd never seen that in his years, but he's also long gone soon and how many times were they unable to slope away from the pool to cause it ?

He suggested calling PB, which I promptly pointed out they would be quick to blame the patio guy for directing water towards the pool.

He then suggested running a bead of silicone under the liner track. I suggested something more robust and he gladly agreed to use construction adhesive. If it permanently seals the edge then it will do the trick, if any water ever gets under the patio. The jury is still out if that is a thing or not.

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[rcs29]

I would be cautious directing runoff water from the deck into the window well.

I found the bottom of those wells can get filled with dirt over time and slow the draining. We have had some storms with large amounts of rain in a short time. If the well cannot handle the runoff the water level climbs in the well and water leaks through the window. I don’t know how much of a mess you can have with water coming in through the window.

I have had that happen and needed to go outside in the middle of big storms to drop my sump pump into a window well to pump it out and stop the water over the window.

Have also had this happen to me. Debris got into drainage tile, slowed flow, leaked through window and did considerable dry wall damage. Also had to go out in insane conditions with utility pump. I agree these are not the most ideal areas to run extra water to. More often than not you'll have no problems until that "not" moment.