How to turn off solar heater?

[caycarem]

That's a non-standard plumbing feature (in fact, I've never seen it before). If we guessed right about that valve's purpose, that it's just there to always feed a little water to the spa, even in full-on pool mode, there are a couple work-arounds for that, so you could get rid of all of that. But these are based on replacing the copper three-way with the automated three-way. You can adjust the actuator to always send some water to the spa, even in pool mode. So one way it sends 100% to spa, the other way it sends 95% to pool and 5% to spa (or whatever you need). The other way is to set the scheduling of the ET to once a day go into spillover mode, say for 30 minutes. This mode sends pool water to the spa which spills over back into the pool. This circulates the spa and chlorinates it, so running that little bypass is not needed. That's pretty standard for an in-pool spa.

This is why I was suggesting the three copper to PVC conversions. Basically just leaving the minimum copper you have to, and replacing the rest of it with PVC. That way you can glue in the new three-way with actuator, get rid of the bypass, glue in the SWG, etc.

Makes a lot of sense, thanks Dirk! I hate copper...I'd replace them all if i could, but it looks like the returns lines go all the way into the concrete, not sure how deep they go. I will try to test my dying heater today. if it doesn't work i might as well take it out completely and replace them copper pipes with PVC. I can plumb in a new heater later when I get one.

 

[setsailsoon]

Thanks i'm looking at some SWG options but it seems you're right, there's enough length before the bend. there's a small spa bypass pipe after the bend (for spa overflow when on pool return), so I can't replace that part unless i want to redo that bypass with PVC.

you mentioned using Borate to help with high PH and scaling, I am having this same issue! since i switched this pool from tablets (previous owner) to liquid chlorine, i noticed white scales formed all around at the pool water level, after i drained the water from 100 CYA to 30 CYA. I used of couple of gallons muriatic acid and could bring PH way down from normally 8-8.2 to 7.5, but TA (160) wouldn't budge at all! and it only takes a week to get back up there. CH is 300. I think my fill water has high PH (maybe 7.8 or 8.0) and TA of 160. I have added back the tablets now to raise CYA to 50 and see. Would borate help in this case?

also, should i be concerned about the heater, if i switch to SWG? I heard salt would destroy it, unless it's a Salt resistant heater. no idea what mine is.

Here's what I would do if it were me:

1. Get a complete set of test results from a TFP approved test kit for your pool water and fill water then post the results.
2. Read up on how to lower TA with muriatic acid. Here's what you need to know. This may take several cycles and see if you can improve your aeration if you are not getting good reduction. When you reduce pH don't do it more than .4 pH units at a time. Make sure you go all the way down to 7.2 as the TFP procedure requires.
3. Once you get TA where you want it see if you are better able to control pH. It doesn't hurt to run higher in the range. I run 7,7-79. most of the time now.
4. If needed add borates. It's way easier with Boric acid.

The only benefit that I've seen with borates is improved pH control. Scaling is due to improper water balance, usually over longer periods of time. The thing to watch is your CSI. CSI is calculated from your test results. If you stay within TFP test ranges your CSI will be acceptable. If you want to run a tighter range on CSI you can play around with Pool Math and make adjustments. Just don't go outside the TFP recommended ranges. This is more important than your CSI. With my salt pool I follow the recommended practice to keep CSI slightly negative. Usually -.01 to -.2. I've used TFP ranges for over 5 years on my 7 year old pool and salt for the last 2 years. No sign of deposits yet even in my 2 year old cell.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

also, should i be concerned about the heater, if i switch to SWG? I heard salt would destroy it, unless it's a Salt resistant heater. no idea what mine is.

It's amazing what you hear out there about salt. We swim several days per week year-round. So the heater gets a real work-out for the pool in winter months and spa year-round. I see absolutely no indication of corrosion even after 2 years of swg. My neighbor has the same heater and same pool builder. He only uses his pool half the year and his pool was a mess this year. Heater corroded out and copper stains all over the pool. He paid $5000 for a replacement heater and acid job. The only difference between me and him is he knows nothing about pool chemistry, doesn't want to know so he is using a pool service that I know to be completely ignorant of basic pool chemistry. His pool service told him they often replace pool heaters every 4-6 years! (I really mean it when I say they are idiots). The only difference between my pool and his is TFP water balance.

Bottom line... keep your pool TFP balanced and enjoy your salt pool!

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Dirk]

P

Makes a lot of sense, thanks Dirk! I hate copper...I'd replace them all if i could, but it looks like the returns lines go all the way into the concrete, not sure how deep they go. I will try to test my dying heater today. if it doesn't work i might as well take it out completely and replace them copper pipes with PVC. I can plumb in a new heater later when I get one.

At some point in time, copper was used throughout. It might go all the way to the pool.

 

[caycarem]

Here's what I would do if it were me:

1. Get a complete set of test results from a TFP approved test kit for your pool water and fill water then post the results.
2. Read up on how to lower TA with muriatic acid. Here's what you need to know. This may take several cycles and see if you can improve your aeration if you are not getting good reduction. When you reduce pH don't do it more than .4 pH units at a time. Make sure you go all the way down to 7.2 as the TFP procedure requires.
3. Once you get TA where you want it see if you are better able to control pH. It doesn't hurt to run higher in the range. I run 7,7-79. most of the time now.
4. If needed add borates. It's way easier with Boric acid.

The only benefit that I've seen with borates is improved pH control. Scaling is due to improper water balance, usually over longer periods of time. The thing to watch is your CSI. CSI is calculated from your test results. If you stay within TFP test ranges your CSI will be acceptable. If you want to run a tighter range on CSI you can play around with Pool Math and make adjustments. Just don't go outside the TFP recommended ranges. This is more important than your CSI. With my salt pool I follow the recommended practice to keep CSI slightly negative. Usually -.01 to -.2. I've used TFP ranges for over 5 years on my 7 year old pool and salt for the last 2 years. No sign of deposits yet even in my 2 year old cell.

I hope this helps.

Chris

Water pretty balanced except TA and PH. I’ll try to lower TA again, maybe i did not use acid long enough last time (1 week, pool turned green somehow so I stopped acid and shocked it) and now I sorta gave up and left TA at 160 and keep PH below 8.0. It seems to consume a lot of acid to keep PH down but TA no change maybe 150 lowest. See attached poolmath and white scaling line.

 

[setsailsoon]

Water pretty balanced except TA and PH. I’ll try to lower TA again

Cay,

PH and TA are pretty important when it comes to scaling. It's not just CH. For example little excursions to 8 and above can make your CSI go way out of range. See my test pool results below for pH 8.2. My guess is that due to the high TA your pool has been in this area a lot in the past. When you get your pH under control you should see way less deposits. I had this exact same problem when we first moved in to our house. Had to add acid multiple times per week. Brought TA down and it helped a lot. But adding borates got me to where I am now of acid addition every 10 days or so. I think you may have given up too soon on dropping the pH. This really helps to move TA. Try dropping lower in pH range as Pool School suggests. I bet it gets your TA down with just a few cycles.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[caycarem]

Cay,

PH and TA are pretty important when it comes to scaling. It's not just CH. For example little excursions to 8 and above can make your CSI go way out of range. See my test pool results below for pH 8.2. My guess is that due to the high TA your pool has been in this area a lot in the past. When you get your pH under control you should see way less deposits. I had this exact same problem when we first moved in to our house. Had to add acid multiple times per week. Brought TA down and it helped a lot. But adding borates got me to where I am now of acid addition every 10 days or so. I think you may have given up too soon on dropping the pH. This really helps to move TA. Try dropping lower in pH range as Pool School suggests. I bet it gets your TA down with just a few cycles.

I hope this helps.

Chris

View attachment 168062

Thanks Chris! I will try again to lower TA over several weeks, last time i was scared and thought muriatic acid would turn my pool green again but maybe not. You're right my TA and PH has been high for years probably, but amazing enought no scaling when I got the pool probably due to tablets with CYAN =100? it started scaling a couple months after i switched to liquid chlorine. can I add Borates before switching to salt?

 

[Dirk]

pH and algae are unrelated. Let those thoughts go, as you've mentioned that several times in your thread. Raising or lowering pH will have no effect on reducing or encouraging algae. Likewise, the use of Muriatic acid will not have any effect on algae either.

Manipulate pH (using acid and aeration) to lower your TA.

Maintain FC to control algae.

 

[setsailsoon]

but amazing enought no scaling when I got the pool probably due to tablets with CYAN =100? it started scaling a couple months after i to liquid chlorine. can I add Borates before switching to salt?

Tablets are about 50% cyanuric acid which lowers your pH so you don't need much if any acid addition. I know a few people that use tablets and regularly drain water to control CYA to manageable levels. Works fine if you don't mind measuring CYA closely and draining water frequently. The also use little or no acid. You can check this with Pool Math. Notice that CYA addition lowers pH a lot. CYA addition is an expensive way to control pH and reduces chlorine's disinfection properties but it does work to reduce pH. Most pools have a natural tendency to increase in pH because of aeration. Aeration naturally increases pH that must be offset by acid addition. When you switched to liquid chlorine your pH probably went very high if you didn't start adding enough MA. This very likely was the problem since your high pH caused the CSI to climb. Borates should work for salt and non-salt pools. But I would get your pool chemistry balanced first. The more things that you change at a time the more complicated it gets. Pool chemistry maintenance should be simple to do, not hard. I think most people add borates after salt because they mistakenly believe salt pools have pH problems. That's not correct. It's due to the fact they switch from tablets that have 50% acid and need the acid to offset aeration. You can do this with at almost any acid but MA is by far the best choice since it doesn't build up and cause the problems that CYA does. Other acids will work but each one has specific issues as well.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Dirk]

caycarem, while Chris gives an excellent explanation about pucks and CYA and acid, perhaps this can simplify things for you, for now.

1. Stop thinking about pucks. The use of pucks of either kind is not a sustainable water maintenance model for you and your older pool. You're installing an SWG, stick with that, forget about pucks forever. I can't now remember the age of your finish, but if it's as old as the rest of your pool you do not want to replace water regularly, if ever, if you can avoid it. Doing so can compromise your finish.

2. Stop thinking about borates. You are nowhere near the point to consider its use. It's the very last thing you want to consider doing, and only then for very good and very specific reasons. You need to first sort out all your equipment challenges, while at the same time figuring out your water chemistry. Pardon me for saying, but you are still learning the very basics of that, and seem to be confusing some of those basics. You need to master FC, pH, TA and CH now, and then again when you get all the equipment sorted out (an SWG will affect your pool's chemistry). Once all the new equipment is in and running smoothly, and you're an expert with your pool's chemical needs, then you can start to think about learning about borates. They are not a magic bullet, and are merely optional, and many of us don't have the need, or the desire, to manage another pool chemical. Come back here and start with the following thread. When you do, pay particular attention to the line about how using borates does not lessen the need to use Muriatic Acid. I've never used borates and don't ever plan to. My TA and pH are very stable and I manage them, along with FC, with automation. I never felt the need to further complicate my pool's maintenance with yet another chemical.

Borates - Why and How

Borates - Why and How Why Adding borates can improve your experience with your pool, but is completely optional. If you do plan to use borates, wait until everything else is settled down before adding borates, especially TA and PH. The only situations where we specifically recommend using...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[caycarem]

Tablets are about 50% cyanuric acid which lowers your pH so you don't need much if any acid addition. I know a few people that use tablets and regularly drain water to control CYA to manageable levels. Works fine if you don't mind measuring CYA closely and draining water frequently. The also use little or no acid. You can check this with Pool Math. Notice that CYA addition lowers pH a lot. CYA addition is an expensive way to control pH and reduces chlorine's disinfection properties but it does work to reduce pH. Most pools have a natural tendency to increase in pH because of aeration. Aeration naturally increases pH that must be offset by acid addition. When you switched to liquid chlorine your pH probably went very high if you didn't start adding enough MA. This very likely was the problem since your high pH caused the CSI to climb. Borates should work for salt and non-salt pools. But I would get your pool chemistry balanced first. The more things that you change at a time the more complicated it gets. Pool chemistry maintenance should be simple to do, not hard. I think most people add borates after salt because they mistakenly believe salt pools have pH problems. That's not correct. It's due to the fact they switch from tablets that have 50% acid and need the acid to offset aeration. You can do this with at almost any acid but MA is by far the best choice since it doesn't build up and cause the problems that CYA does. Other acids will work but each one has specific issues as well.

I hope this helps.

Chris

This helps a lot, thanks for your explanation on tablets/acid/cya/borates. I have 4 tablets in a floater for about 5 days, and dumped in a gallon MA past few days. today I just checked TA already down to 140! PH still high at 7.8, I dumped another half gallon MA in the pool.
I still have half a large container of tablets, with CYA less than 35 (partially drained pool few times last few months), I think I will stop liquid chlorine for a while and use tablets again until cya gets to 70 (TA would also come down due to tablet acid?), I should have SWG installed by then. would this be an ok plan?

 

[caycarem]

caycarem, while Chris gives an excellent explanation about pucks and CYA and acid, perhaps this can simplify things for you, for now.

1. Stop thinking about pucks. The use of pucks of either kind is not a sustainable water maintenance model for you and your older pool. You're installing an SWG, stick with that, forget about pucks forever. I can't now remember the age of your finish, but if it's as old as the rest of your pool you do not want to replace water regularly, if ever, if you can avoid it. Doing so can compromise your finish.

2. Stop thinking about borates. You are nowhere near the point to consider its use. It's the very last thing you want to consider doing, and only then for very good and very specific reasons. You need to first sort out all your equipment challenges, while at the same time figuring out your water chemistry. Pardon me for saying, but you are still learning the very basics of that, and seem to be confusing some of those basics. You need to master FC, pH, TA and CH now, and then again when you get all the equipment sorted out (an SWG will affect your pool's chemistry). Once all the new equipment is in and running smoothly, and you're an expert with your pool's chemical needs, then you can start to think about learning about borates. They are not a magic bullet, and are merely optional, and many of us don't have the need, or the desire, to manage another pool chemical. Come back here and start with the following thread. When you do, pay particular attention to the line about how using borates does not lessen the need to use Muriatic Acid. I've never used borates and don't ever plan to. My TA and pH are very stable and I manage them, along with FC, with automation. I never felt the need to further complicate my pool's maintenance with yet another chemical.

Borates - Why and How

Borates - Why and How Why Adding borates can improve your experience with your pool, but is completely optional. If you do plan to use borates, wait until everything else is settled down before adding borates, especially TA and PH. The only situations where we specifically recommend using...

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks Dirk, I barely know how tablets/acid/pH/TA work..with your explanation and Chris' today however, I think I just became a master
Ok maybe not a master at all, but I have a much better idea now. Will leave borates alone until I get this PH/TA balanced and maybe after SWG.

 

[Dirk]

I still have half a large container of tablets, with CYA less than 35 (partially drained pool few times last few months), I think I will stop liquid chlorine for a while and use tablets again until cya gets to 70

Sorry, didn't realize you already had a supply. Increasing CYA intentionally is a legitimate reason to use tablets. Then once you get to 70 go to liquid chlorine only. But...

You'll probably have to wait until spring to turn on whatever SWG you'll end up with, as soon your pool water will be too cold.

In a very similar situation, I ran my pool as a non-swg pool during its first winter, and didn't increase CYA from 30 to 70 until spring. Then I added salt and waited a few days for it to mix in and then turned on the SWG.

There's no real harm in adding all that CYA now, but it will mean you'll need to maintain a higher FC level. I would recommend you use the same MO I did and wait.

Further, I would wait until Spring to buy the SWG. You're not going to be able to use it much, if at all, in the coming months. Why start your warranty sooner than you have to?

 

[caycarem]

Earlier, I opened up the gas heater bottom door and top to inspect, I think I also learned a lot how it works, seeing how things are placed inside. pretty simple - on top, the heat exchanger has like 9 pipes total going across (input) and back(output). these pipes look good (no rust), however the metal pieces covering between the pipes look super rusted. there are 4 ceramic/concrete walls enclosing the whole thing to keep the heat in. The bottom tray also very rusted, but the gas burners are fine, no rust, and sturdy.

I fired up the heater, switch the valves to spa, and filter pressure jumped from 9 to 18 psi. hot water started coming out, which was great. although, copper valve started to leak a tiny bit, so did the filter, I guess due to high pressure. I am confident this heater will work for at least another season or 2, although may not be very sealed/efficient due to rusted parts. so I will keep it for now. Swim season is over anyway (tomorrow low will be 34F), i won't be using it until perhaps April next year.

 

[caycarem]

Sorry, didn't realize you already had a supply. Increasing CYA intentionally is a legitimate reason to use tablets. Then once you get to 70 go to liquid chlorine only. But...

You'll probably have to wait until spring to turn on whatever SWG you'll end up with, as soon your pool water will be too cold.

In a very similar situation, I ran my pool as a non-swg pool during its first winter, and didn't increase CYA from 30 to 70 until spring. Then I added salt and waited a few days for it to mix in and then turned on the SWG.

There's no real harm in adding all that CYA now, but it will mean you'll need to maintain a higher FC level. I would recommend you use the same MO I did and wait.

Further, I would wait until Spring to buy the SWG. You're not going to be able to use it much, if at all, in the coming months. Why start your warranty sooner than you have to?

Makes sense, I will go slow with the tablets and use with some liquid chlorine. Wont need a lot at these temperature anyway.

 

[caycarem]

For the filter, is cartridge filter preferred? I was looking at pentair 60 DE filter but no experience with DE.

 

[Dirk]

I've only ever used a cartridge. Works great for my pool.

 

[setsailsoon]

They all work but I'm with Dirk. Cartridge is the only way I'd go. Easy to maintain just make sure it's sized right.

 

[caycarem]

Thanks both, I’ll look for a good size cartridge filter.
Dumb question - can I wire a the Superflo or Intelliflo to a power cord and plug into 110V outlet? This smart extension cord can handle 1850 watts, 15 amp, and has timer that works without internet. Running pump 3000rpm or less should work...can schedule both pump+circupool swg together for a poor man automation.

Kasa Outdoor Smart Plug by TP-Link, Smart Home Wi-Fi Outlet with 2 Sockets, Works with Alexa & Google Home, No Hub Required, Remote Control, Sunset & Sunrise Offset (KP400) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M6RS2LC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_dlC_ghLQFb4M9A55C?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Dirk]

I don't offer instructions over the internet about pool wiring. Others here will. But here's some advice about it, and no disrespect intended, your question has enough red flags in it for me to be compelled to say: you should not be doing any work yourself on your pool's electrical systems. It's considerably more complicated than you might think. If you don't know what you're doing, someone could get seriously injured or killed.

For the record, the answer is no.