How to turn off solar heater?

[caycarem]

Yep we did cover all solar questions, thanks so much Dirk. Really appreciate your help and super quick answers.

I plan to add Flow meter next, along with replacing my single speed 2HP pacfab pumb with a VS pump, add SWG, replacing polaris 280 with robot and replumbing the pump lines, replacing rusted dead pool lights, and cauking the water line concrete. Perhaps At least I want to get some of these items done by next swim season starting with vs pump and swg. Hopefully there will be some sales during black friday.

 

[Dirk]

You can use a FlowVis flow meter in place of your existing check valve. It is both a flow meter and a check valve. If you locate it right after the filter, it will keep the solar system water from back-flowing through your filter, and give you flow rate readings for not only the solar system, but for the entire system, so you can use it for more than just optimizing your panels. If won't be in a great spot, but maybe streamlining your plumbing and reorganizing it can be part of the project. You could even choose to reconfigure the solar plumbing in a more conventional way. The FlowVis is clear, so you can watch the water run through it and monitor the check valve action. Something you can't do with your current check.

 

[caycarem]

FlowVis seems convenient 2 in 1, thanks for the suggestion.everything so cramped, I might have to redo some plumbing to add FlowVis, SWG and VS Pump. pretty sure I'll have to do these, so I'm keeping an eye out for any sales at this point. Cost is priority, but so is automation for me. Do you think I need a Hayward pump/SWG to go with my GL-235 Hayward controller and the Hayward actuator/valve? I also have an unused Pentair Easytouch.

 

[Dirk]

If you already have an EasyTouch, I would go all Pentair (pump and SWG). The EasyTouch can do all the solar control, it's built in (you have to connect the temp sensors, and the solar actuator, that's it). So the Hayward solar controller would go away. I'm all but certain the Hayward actuator will work with the ET, so there's no reason to stick with Hayward. We can call in a TFP expert to verify that. The few models of pump that work best with the ET are considered the gold standard of pool pumps, the IntelliFlo series. And with the Pentair pump and ET, the Pentair SWG is the trifecta. You could go all Hayward, but since you already have the ET, I'm gonna guess using that as the foundation of your automation will be the more cost effective solution.

 

[Dirk]

If you want app control, then you'll have to factor in the cost of Pentair's ScreenLogic system (which works with the ET). I don't know how any of that compares to going all Hayward, for both cost and functionality, as I've only ever used Pentair. If you buy enough Pentair gear at the same time, you get their three-year warranty, but generally you have to have a pro install it, so that's another cost factor.

Give me just a few more posts and I'll be able to completely empty your bank account!

At this point, I would first make a list of what I wanted the system to be able to do (functionality). Then I would build two lists, both Pentair and Hayward, of the equipment required to achieve that functionality. Then compare the costs. Somewhere in there I would download the owner manuals for everything, and read them thoroughly so that I new exactly what can do what. Only after all that would I pull the trigger on the purchases. This is virtually the exact opposite of how I put my current system together, which is one of my biggest regrets for how I remodeled my pad. I wish now I had taken the time to do all that, so my advice is mostly me projecting my own MO, and what I should have done.

This stuff is way too expensive to just replace if you get it wrong, so take your time and do your homework.

 

[caycarem]

Haha If you help me empty my bank, then you're going to have to help me find a new wife

Thanks for sharing your experience, that makes sense. I will take my time and do proper research and comparison before jumping the gun. does pool stuff usually go on sale on Black Friday? which sellers have good prices for pump and SWG or just Amazon?

 

[Dirk]

I never shopped for any, so wouldn't know about Black Friday. Trusted a PB and paid him what he said it costs. Part of my regret.

Just be careful about where you purchase stuff. That really affects the warranty, at least for Pentair. I suspect the other Big Two might have similar gotchas (Jandy and Harward). Sometimes you can get stuff so much cheaper online than you can from a "certified installer" that you can buy one, install it yourself, have it fail and then buy another and it's still cheaper. For that, you have to calculate the odds and roll the dice a bit...

 

[caycarem]

Yeah definitely will go the DYI route to save $$$. Have you noticed the price of SWG rocketed up ~25% past 6 months? these SWGs like Circupool are now so expensive!
Oh and sad to say that what I have is a Solartouch, not Easytouch. I bought the kit years ago and haven't touched it, came with valve and actuator. not much improvement over the GLD-235 is it? It can control intelliFlo pump but i dont see any Pentair SWG listed as compatible in terms of automation.
I also wonder if it's feasible to automate with Smarthome/WiFi outlet/switches that could potentially be cheaper and easier, if things can be connected to them instead of direct wiring.

 

[Dirk]

I've only ever used EasyTouch, but I've read here that the SolarTouch is difficult to program (whatever that means). It won't control your SWG. So if you don't already own an ET, then you're back to picking out whatever brand makes most sense. I only know Pentair. It's good. I'm sure the other two are comparable. The valve and actuator can probably be used with any brand of controller. Where you want to sync the brand is pump-controller-swg. Those three items will work best if all the same brand. Pretty much everything else can work with any brand.

I've heard the precious metals that make the SWG magic have increased in price, so that's driving SWG costs up. Though the conspiracy theorist in me thinks the SWG manufacturers have finally got us all hooked on SWGs and know we'll pay just about anything for them!

I'm heavy into home automation, but I won't put my pool on it. As archaic as some of the tech still used in pool automation is, it's time-tested and very reliable (that's true for my Pentair gear, anyway). It's one thing to have a lightbulb come on at the wrong time, or even have the sprinklers stay on too long. But HA (IMO) is not reliable enough for pool automation. I've got my Pentair gear set up to expose a suction port in my pool only in the middle of the night. It dispenses acid in tiny amounts, but has access to four gallons of it. It shuts down my SWG when the pump is off, so that it won't explode, and it won't inject acid into my plumbing while the SWG is on to produce a toxic gas! Those are a few examples of things that just have to happen correctly, each time, every time. WiFi and RF home automation controllers and devices are not ready for that (not by my standards, anyway).

There are folks here that have built their own pool automation controllers. You might do a search for that. But that's not for me, for the same reasons.

 

[caycarem]

Wow first time I hear someone automating acid release, you’re really hard core!
I’ll keep digging, thanks for sharing your experience with automation.

Oh, my polaris 280 situation is getting annoying, its tail gets sucked into a suction hole near the skimmer every other day. Have you seen this? Not sure how to deal with it.

 

[Dirk]

Your problem with the Polaris might just be a matter of adjustment. Hose length is a biggie. Also the placement of the float. There are other adjustments, too. Find the manual for yours and see if that has the tips you need. Or search for your model on YouTube, there are a ton of videos that show you how to set them up. And here's a TFP article about Polaris:

Polaris Pool Cleaners - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Many folks here have automated acid dosing. Where there's a will, there's a way. Well, more accurately: Where there's someone lazy, there's a way out!

 

[caycarem]

thanks Dirk, adjusted the float next to the backup valve and that seemed to help. I'll have to look into automating acid and autofill some days. For now:

Just found this Wifi timer box with some good reviews, seems like it could be useful to maybe hook a pump + SWG to it. wifi timer box
And for pump, this superflo 1.5hp at $699 seems like half price of intelliflo 3HP pumps. would 3HP be overkill? which one uses less electricity?
For SWG, I'm looking at either Circupool universal 40 or RJ-45.
Solar valve will just turn on and off itself based on temperature sensors. maybe i could program the timer to turn on SWG and pump together.
will probably get rid of Polaris 280 and its 3/4 HP pump and get a dolphin, or reroute the polaris plumbing to use the same new pump.
will try to make schematic so i can get opinions on these, once i bought the stuff.

 

[Dirk]

Before you buy anything, I think you should have a solid plan in mind, for what you want to be able to automate, and how you want to be able to control it, and from where.

For example, if you're contemplating the purchase of a controller, a pump and an SWG, you'd be ripe for a Pentair bundle. Pentair's IntelliFlo pumps are among the best out there. And later adding a Pentair acid injection system to their SWG is a DIY snap, and they work hand-in-hand in ways other SWG and acid injection systems can't. You can control their pool automation controllers from the equipment pad, a smart phone/pad or a computer, from home or while away. The controller has built-in support for pool/spa control, solar heating, gas heating, the SWG and pump scheduling. Way more control than you'll get from that $63 timer.

Coordinating that timer with your existing pump and an SWG is possible. It would "sort of" work with a VS pump. It's dangerous for an SWG to be powered when the pump is off, and your little timer would not be used to schedule or control the newer VS pumps. They require full-time power, and have electronics on board that do the scheduling, so you'd use the WiFi timer to schedule the SWG. If those two timers ever got out of sync, and the SWG was powered on when the pump was not pumping, that would be bad. Pentair's controllers don't allow that to happen.

Some of the Pentair bundles come with actuators that could be used to automate the pool/spa modes. So with Pentair automation you could warm up the spa on the way home and have it ready for you upon arrival. I've got an actuator on my vacuum system that is controlled by my automation controller, which allows better flow control through the vac. That WiFi timer would not be able to coordinate with the vac's booster pump, you'd need a second timer for that, wired to the first one so that he booster pump could not get powered on without he main pump on. You could conceivably coordinate existing pump, booster pump and SWG safely, if you had three of those WiFi timers, which you could wire such that the SWG and booster pump would not get power unless the main pump was on, but I'm not sure if the 2HP limit would come into play. But you wouldn't be able to control the heater, nor remotely switch pool/spa modes. Pentair automation can also control dual heating systems (solar and gas, for example) to select the best heat source automatically or manually, for pool or spa.

Robots get good reviews around here. I prefer my suction-side vac. I used to have a 280, but I didn't like it, and I didn't like having to run that second pump. I was able to convert the pressure port in my pool to a suction port, and now I connected the vac to that. You could probably do the same if you wanted to. Swapping out your one-speed and booster pumps for one VS pump would definitely pay for itself in time. Plus, your pad would be so much quieter!

Full automation will definitely be more expensive, but you should look into what if can do before you buy anything, because you want the pump, controller and SWG to all be of the same brand for maximum performance and features. And automating everything, as opposed to just the pump, might be worth the difference.

So put together a schematic of your system, and think through what you want to be able to do, and then post all that here. We'll have a look and make some recommendations. Then you can study a few owner manuals to see if that meets your needs and budget. All before you buy the first component upgrade, so that you don't end up with something that doesn't fit your plan.

Or just post your credit card number and I'll order you a bunch of new gear. I'll be happy to spend your money for you. I'm nice like that!

Edit: sorry, I just realized I shared a lot of that, jokes and all, previously in this same thread, but you get the gist...

 

[setsailsoon]

Cay,

Very interesting thread. I'm not sure exactly what your goal is but it seems that your trying to find the best way to control the pump, solar, and swg and by best I mean it works reliably and gives you the most control. I spent a LONG time on this before I installed my automation. I found just like you have there are several ways to use inexpensive switches remotely via WiFi to turn equipment on and off but when you want to add a little more sophisticated control like changing temperature settings on a heater or separately control swg run time while ensuring it doesn't run with the pump off your choices are narrowed and more expensive. There are some very inexpensive DIY choices but they require a lot more programing knowledge to use something like a Raspberry Pi or EXP 32 processor. Both have WiFi capability built in. If you want to do this easy with fairly straight-forward configuration you end up going with a major automation system from Jandy, Hayward, or Pentair. All 3 of these "incentivize" you to go with an authorized dealer with their punitive warranty policies. This adds a huge cost typically several thousand $ and gets you a warranty of several years instead of 0 to 90 days. I ended up taking the warranty risk and going DIY but I don't think this approach is good for most. I used Jandy initially then several years later after a lightning strike I changed to Pentair Intellicenter. Jandy now give you 0 warranty so I'd avoid them for a DIY. I think Pentair Intellicenter is the best way to go anyway. Much better features and a modular system that's cost effective to upgrade. If you don't already have an swg their bundled swg system is the best way to go in my opinion.

If you have reasonably new pump (less than 10 years) there are several options to replace the motor only with a VS motor that are very cost effective.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[TexasBR]

I am curious as to why you would want to turn off the solar heater in Fall weather.

 

[caycarem]

I am curious as to why you would want to turn off the solar heater in Fall weather.

good question T, I guess I didn't need to turn it off now that I know how it works solar is on automatic on/off based on temperature sensor difference between pool water and the roof, but i schedule my pump to turn on only during the day so it doesnt make any difference.

 

[caycarem]

Setsailsoon - I've checked out some of the cool Raspberry Pi automation thread, and while I think I could do it, it's probably not worth the saving due to the efforts it would take. If you notice, most of those folks gave them up half way
Thanks for your second vote on the Pentair automation with IntelliCenter.
Interesting idea on the pump motor replacement. How much does it cost? My pump is probably very old but still looks ok outside, see pic.

 

[caycarem]

Dirk - I appreciate your additional info there, it makes sense to go with the Pentair automation system since it is convenient, reliable and future proof. I will have to seriously think over the choices between a cheap sorta work system (vs pump, SWG, solar, wifi timer box) and the likely 2-3x expensive Pentair ecosystem. if budget isn't tight I'd rather give you my credit card and get the whole darn Pentair things btw, do they sell bundled Pentair stuff? if go with Pentair, i will at least for now, need: VS intelliFlo pump, SWG, EasyTouch, IntelliCenter.
curious - what is the benefit of your Rebel cleaner over others, why did you take the efforts to convert to suction cleaner vs. a robot like Dolphin? is it much better than the Polaris 280?

 

[setsailsoon]

Cay,

I used a V-green by Century. Now there are several brands. I would be very reluctant on an old pump since you might have to replace the whole pump soon and would end up with higher total cost in the long term. My V-Green 1.65 was $400. I put it on my 1 HP 2-speed Jandy pump that was about 7 years old and it worked great. Interfaced with my system using the digital inputs and didn't have any problems using it with the Circupool swg, solar, Jandy gas heater, and my Intellicenter. Here's why I caution about putting it on an older pump though. Last week I had a pump housing crack develop at the discharge. Had to replace the part @ $155. Still a good financial decision but on an older pump like yours cost of repair parts and even potential availability could be worse than in my case.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Dirk]

I am curious as to why you would want to turn off the solar heater in Fall weather.

It takes several days in the fringe seasons to heat a pool to a comfortable weather. Once you declare swim season over, you turn off the solar for two reasons:

1. you don't want it to engage on a "one-off" warm day, because the pool will not get warm enough to enjoy, so you've just wasted pump runtime and electricity for nothing, and

2. you definitely don't want it to engage on a "one-off" warm day when temps that night are going to be in the freezing. Sure, the panels are supposed to drain at the end of the day, but they don't (can't) 100%, there will always be some left in the little heating tubes and some in the manifold, trapped by the plumbing and its fixtures. That water will then freeze, which might be OK and might not. Best to let the entire system dry out as much as it can after swim season but before freezing weather, and then not put any water into it until Spring.

And if you just meant why not leave it on in fall to heat the pool for a comfortable swim, that depends on the nighttime temps as much or more as daytime temps. Once the nights get cool enough a solar heater cannot heat a pool to a comfortable temp even on a very warm day. So while it might seem like a fall day is hot enough for a good swim, it's the previous few night of too-cold temps that determine the max temp for that day. Once the fall nights get consistently cold, no amount of warm days will counteract them...

Solar blankets can help extend the season, but the cumulative effects of successive cold nights still come into play.