Getting ready for SWG

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needsajet said:
Yep, if you test by a sink, just dump dregs and rinse them down. I test outdoors and dump in the garden. The dregs should not be dumped in the pool. If I'm testing by the pool, I have a measuring cup handy and dump all the dregs in that, and haven't had any issues.

For me, triple-rinsing is an old habit from a variety of testing and mixing of chemicals and cleaning out containers. I collect around a quart of pool water so I have lots for rinsing and testing. I also have a small plastic pipette (an eye dropper would do) that I use for setting the sample size. I pour out enough so I'm close, then bend over to look at the line and top up or suck a wee bit out. I triple-rinse the pipette as well, haha, but only once for all the tests :)
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Cool, sink drain it is. Thanks.

The one thing that Leslie's has contributed positively to my pool care, is the little test bottle they gave me, for free. I collect my sample in that. Its cap has the perfect squeeze dispenser, goes in fast, then slow to get exactly to the line (yes, yes, meniscus). There's enough water for all the tests, and the rinses (but not enough for a triple rinse). I use 2.5' of PVC to fill the thing, using the thumb trick, so I don't have to put my whole arm into the water for a proper sample "from below."

How are you collecting a quart?
 
Speaking of testing, have any of you seen this?

Smart Water Care for Pools and Hot Tubs | Simplify Pool Care | pHin

It can't possibly work well, and/or comprehensively, so I'm not promoting it or suggesting it to anyone. But the notion of it is fascinating. Can you imagine? If they could perfect this somehow? Dosing is relatively painless (my adventures with MA aside), it's the constant testing that is the hassle. (No matter how much we all pretend it's "fun and easy!")

And they've got an interesting business model, with the app and the front porch delivery. Good money for them. Not so much for the consumer... But it's an interesting [possible] alternative to the pool-guy-sham for those that can't practice TFPC.

Mod's, delete away if need be. Don't want to stir anything up!
 
The trouble arises from sensing challenges. Second issue is cost, but that's relative to the user. You can search phin in the search box and get a pretty good sense of it.

In a nutshell, pH sensing and dosing is do-able, provided the sensor is checked and re-calibrated periodically. FC sensing is not especially reliable because it's done by measuring oxidation reduction potential (ORP), which doesn't convert to FC consistently. Also ORP sensors are fouled by CYA, so you need a non-CYA (or very low CYA) approach which has different downsides.
 
needsajet said:
The trouble arises from sensing challenges. Second issue is cost, but that's relative to the user. You can search phin in the search box and get a pretty good sense of it.

In a nutshell, pH sensing and dosing is do-able, provided the sensor is checked and re-calibrated periodically. FC sensing is not especially reliable because it's done by measuring oxidation reduction potential (ORP), which doesn't convert to FC consistently. Also ORP sensors are fouled by CYA, so you need a non-CYA (or very low CYA) approach which has different downsides.
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Sure, I new it was too good to be true, but the notion of it... If a human can do drop tests, why can't a machine? (Not necessarily one that floats in a pool.) Calibrating a machine once a month, and refilling reagents and pool chemicals at the same time, maybe a 20 minute chore, how would that sound?
 
SWG Journal

:testkit:
About 6:30 PM and I tested:
FC: 6.5
pH: 7.7
CH: 330
Temp: 72

Lost a little FC today! But it's a new world record! The longest I've gone without dosing chlorine! FC is still a little high. So I'll leave everything as is for now, to see if it'll finally "bottom out" where it needs to be (FC5), or continue to fall. So for tomorrow, no change in settings:

RPM: 1500
GPM: 21
SWG Hours: 8
Output: 50%

I'll continue to check the FC each day for a while, in the evening (after the sun is off the pool).

OK, as promised, the CH Saga.

My primary questions: does anything besides fill water replacing evaporation contribute to CH rise? My new pebble is six months old. Is it done leeching calcium into the water? Does it actually do that? And should I worry that it is? Don't I want my plaster to hang on to its calcium?

I tested my fill water today and confirmed an earlier test. My fill water has virtually no CH. My auto fill is attached to my water softener. The test sample did turn purple, but never red. And one drop made it a deep blue, so what, zero? Maybe 5ppm? My fill water will not be contributing to my CH significantly.

I tested my pool water today and confirmed an earlier test. My pool water CH = 330. It might be a bit less (still learning the test) but it is definitely not higher than 330 (deep blue).

My CSI today is -0.19, pretty much where I want it for SWG "cleanliness," right?

So with CH 20 lower than range (350-450), and none coming in to the pool, shouldn't I raise CH a bit? At least to 350? Or maybe split the ideal range and make it 400?

If I otherwise maintain a CSI around -0.2, wouldn't my plaster be happier/safer with CH400, rather than CH320? Remember, I don't expect my CH will be going up, so I don't think I need to reserve any of that "headroom."

As water temp rises, so will my CSI. Increasing CH will also make my CSI rise. I can get CSI back down with pH, but I'd have to go to pH7.5 for my CSI to come back to -0.19. But I've read that SWG pools tend to settle around ph7.8, and not to try to fight with them down to pH7.5. What to do.

My goals are to keep my SWG, tile and pebble clean of calcium. And to prolong the life of my plaster. I'd love to have my pH match my eyeballs, but I don't want to dose MA everyday to do it.

Thoughts?
 
Dirk said:
Hmm, so, easy enough. I'll just use the same one for chlorine each time, and use the other one for the other tests. Overkill, again, probably, but not really any extra work...

Distilled? Really? Why are you torturing me, man!?! You know that could set me off!! ;)

It makes sense, of course, but I gotta think, that with these kits' margin of error, I can safely skip that step...
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I have a separate vial and magnetic bar for each test. Helps prevent contamination and makes it so I can run each test back to back and clean up after I'm all done.

Dirk said:
Sidebar: while cruising some other thread, I read about someone who had just uncovered their pool after having winterized, to find their FC exactly where they left it. I would never have guessed this possible, especially after having used all the chlorine I did this last winter waiting for my water to warm up enough for my SWG! Crazy. I guess winterizing is not something us Californians can take advantage of...
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I raised my FC up to 14ppm in December, and when I opened my pool in March it was still up at 12ppm and took a week to fall down to my target.
 
lightmaster said:
I raised my FC up to 14ppm in December, and when I opened my pool in March it was still up at 12ppm and took a week to fall down to my target.
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You are way south of Central California. Do you cover your pool? Lower the water, blow out the plumbing (whatever else winterizing means)? Any why? Does it snow there? Freeze?
 

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I wouldn't raise calcium. Numbers look great. CSI is the relationship between your plaster and the water. It will rise with temp as you mention. I like mine around -0.2 to +0.3 through the year, watching closely for scale and pH 7.8ish in summer. Plaster should last a long time and easy to do, easy to adjust.

You know what's cool. You've learned this fast by taking the time to rrally understand it, and come to the exact conclusion mentioned elsewhere here, that is pH 7.5 to 7.7.
 
needsajet said:
I wouldn't raise calcium. Numbers look great. CSI is the relationship between your plaster and the water. It will rise with temp as you mention. I like mine around -0.2 to +0.3 through the year, watching closely for scale and pH 7.8ish in summer. Plaster should last a long time and easy to do, easy to adjust.

You know what's cool. You've learned this fast by taking the time to rrally understand it, and come to the exact conclusion mentioned elsewhere here, that is pH 7.5 to 7.7.
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Thanks, and thanks. That's because there's a handful of you that have stuck it out with me and my compulsive learning technique, ever so patiently, which I greatly appreciate.

Wouldn't raise calcium. OK. I just don't want my water sucking it out of my pebble. I'm still wrapping my head around trusting CSI, especially when one of my numbers is out of range. I see you've got a Zodiac. Similar to IC40? Have you been getting any calcium build up on the plates, or flakes in the pool, when your CSI creeps positive?
 
Dirk said:
You are way south of Central California. Do you cover your pool? Lower the water, blow out the plumbing (whatever else winterizing means)? Any why? Does it snow there? Freeze?
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I covered my pool with a winter cover I got from inyopools site, but haven't had a cover on it since I opened it this season. I lowered my water down so it was just barely lower than the skimmer, and drained my pipes, pump, and filter. I've got an bag pool, so had to drain them since gravity wouldn't pull the water back into the pool like in a IG pool. Didn't want the pipes to bust if they froze over the winter, which they would have with a couple days below 30. And we did have a little snow this year, bit not much. Big thing was that I brought the chlorine up close to shock level and covered it, so with no sunlight and a low temp, and no algae or other organics, very little chlorine was consumed.

Now with my new SWG, I'm trying to get my FC down lower l, closer to target. With a 45k rated SWG in a 6.7k pool, 10% for 4 hours a day is making too much FC, lol. When it warms up though, FC should be consumed a good bit faster and I'll need to raise the % some.
 
lightmaster said:
I covered my pool with a winter cover I got from inyopools site, but haven't had a cover on it since I opened it this season. I lowered my water down so it was just barely lower than the skimmer, and drained my pipes, pump, and filter. I've got an bag pool, so had to drain them since gravity wouldn't pull the water back into the pool like in a IG pool. Didn't want the pipes to bust if they froze over the winter, which they would have with a couple days below 30. And we did have a little snow this year, bit not much. Big thing was that I brought the chlorine up close to shock level and covered it, so with no sunlight and a low temp, and no algae or other organics, very little chlorine was consumed.

Now with my new SWG, I'm trying to get my FC down lower l, closer to target. With a 45k rated SWG in a 6.7k pool, 10% for 4 hours a day is making too much FC, lol. When it warms up though, FC should be consumed a good bit faster and I'll need to raise the % some.
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I get freezing temps here, but not long/often enough to freeze the pool or pipes, which are protected by my pump anyway. I guess we're trading convenience of not having to keep up a pool vs being able to look at a pool during the winter...
 
There is a phin discussion on 'agree to disagree' if you want more info on that Dirk, abridged it's just that it won't work, they use test strips to make sure the sensors are working!

Everyone here is a huge believer of csi and reading some of the internet published papers of chemgeek I would follow his advice on anything chemistry related. Your fill water is 0 so adding ch would not hurt and tpfc minium is 350, you might get some cal hypo and use that for momentarily boosts of fc when needed since cal hypo won't go bad like bleach and when you get to 350 discontinue cal hypo. (Use like in the fall or spring, higher than normal bather load, etc)
 
So 1 for leave calcium alone, 1 for raise it.

I plumbed my autofill to connect to softener or city or both with the twist of a couple valves, just for this very reason. So I can just switch to city water (CH350) for a while, as my evaporation is kicking in now. Unless the consensus is to raise it more quickly.

Oops, I just remembered that I do have another possible source of CH. I haven't been through a summer yet with the softener hook up, so I don't know yet how much regeneration it'll be doing now that the demand for soft water will be increasing (because of the pool). And I have no control over the autofill cycle, and don't know if it'll take 10 minutes to top off the pool after a hot day, or if it takes all night. So if the autofill runs through the softener's regeneration cycle, which I believe bypasses the soft water and feeds city water to the house and pool while it's regenerating, then I will get some amount of CH in the pool that way, which, at CH350, will give me CH creep over some as-yet-unknown amount of time. Hmmmm. I'm not going to be turning off my auto fill each night to avoid some CH. It'd be easier to fill my pool manually. As I can't be trusted, defeating the autofill will just mean I'll either forget and starve my skimmer or overflow my pool!

So all this I can, or will, figure out. I guess the only real questions are:

Does CH below the recommended 350-450 range mean my water will be trying to draw calcium out of my plaster, or do I only need to be concerned with CSI in that regard?

And if I push CSI negative (between -0.1 and -0.3) to keep my SWG calcium free, does that mean my water will be slightly more "thirsty" for calcium?

chemgeek?


The CS Saga continues...
 
Sorry, one more question, which I meant to ask a month ago.

Why is the CH range for an SWG pool so much higher than for non-SWG?

A month ago, before I added salt, my CH330 was on the upper end of the recommended 250-350 range.

Now on SWG, my CH330 is below the recommended 350-450 range!?!
 
The higher calcium level for SWG pools is mostly because of the lower TA recommendation. The lower TA recommendation is because the SWG does some slow and steady aeration which could contribute to slightly faster upward pH creep. Lowering TA also lowers CSI, so that is offset with the slightly higher CH recommendation. The higher salt level also reduces CSI a bit.

Going back to your post 172 question, SWGs are all basically the same technology, coated titanium plates, so our SWGs are similar in that respect. I haven't seen scale on my SWG or the two other pools I help care for (different brands). During summer when the water is warm, I usually get around +0.3 when I test, before adding acid, and that would drop to around +0.1 after adding acid.
 
So the difference in the CH ranges from SWG to non-SWG is merely to manipulate CSI? And is that why you recommended not raising my CH, because my CSI is OK? Which would be good long term, as I think I'm in for some CH creep, even if slight.

Can one use an SWG as sort of a "canary in a mine" early warning system? CSI is sort of that, low indicating your water might tend to etch, high indicating your water might tend to scale. Is calcium adhering to your SWG indicative that your water is primed to "shed" its calcium onto your pool's surface? And that as long as your SWG is not collecting calcium, your finish isn't going to either? Or are the two unrelated?
 

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