Getting ready for SWG

[Dirk]

Does he also work on the other ones or just Pentair?

I didn't ask that specifically, but he shared some anecdotal stories that has led him to his opinion, leading me to believe he's been through a lot of the major brands, in some way or another. As I was writing the previous post, I almost included: that he is a Pentair authorized warranty station. So I don't know if that also makes him a dealer. And so his opinion about anything, any brand, is likely suspect. Just one guy, that works on pool equipment more than me. Nothing scientific, for sure. I was just happy he didn't have anything bad to say about Pentair, or my IC40.

But then he warned me that I should be running my pump for 12 hours a day, and that topping off my pool with soft water was a horrible idea. Pool guys. What'da ya gonna do.

Speaking of anecdotes, this was amusing, and I finally discovered something redeeming about test strips. That was the first thing he did. Didn't look at the IC, didn't question me about what I've been tracking about its performance. Just walked over to the water, stuck in a salt test strip, and declared, "Yep, you need a brand new SWG!"

Yay for test strips!!

 

[kimkats]

Yah test strips to the rescue for once LOL

He had it in his head when he got the call to come to your house that you would be getting a new system. He could have saved everyone some time and just called in the order

Kim

 

[jimim]

I wouldn't raise calcium. Numbers look great. CSI is the relationship between your plaster and the water. It will rise with temp as you mention. I like mine around -0.2 to +0.3 through the year, watching closely for scale and pH 7.8ish in summer. Plaster should last a long time and easy to do, easy to adjust.

You know what's cool. You've learned this fast by taking the time to rrally understand it, and come to the exact conclusion mentioned elsewhere here, that is pH 7.5 to 7.7.

im always following this thread cause there is so much good info in it.

I habe a oh wuestion woth the salt cause im stressing about it. With my ph at 7.5 and still having cold temps it’s keeping my csi at -.40. I’m worried cause it’s only going to get worse once my salt goes in and even with the water temp coming up to 65 it still puts me in a negative range. I was thinking keeping my ph at the 7.8 range would keep me almost at 0 or a slight bit negative. My ta is 70 and ch is 425. So slightly high.

What is is the safest way to maintain that csi with salt and colder water?

 

[Dirk]

im always following this thread cause there is so much good info in it.

I habe a oh wuestion woth the salt cause im stressing about it. With my ph at 7.5 and still having cold temps it’s keeping my csi at -.40. I’m worried cause it’s only going to get worse once my salt goes in and even with the water temp coming up to 65 it still puts me in a negative range. I was thinking keeping my ph at the 7.8 range would keep me almost at 0 or a slight bit negative. My ta is 70 and ch is 425. So slightly high.

What is is the safest way to maintain that csi with salt and colder water?

Ha, I'm very curious about that answer myself. I maintained "perfect" CSI-zero through the winter, while I was running my pool as non-SWG, by keeping my pH at the high end of the range, 7.7, 7.8. Then I added salt and CYA for the SWG, and have watched my CSI drop to the -0.2 to -0.3 range. Since everything else is where it should be, level-wise, it kind'a leaves pH to be the "driver" of CSI. Because my plaster is new, my pH still needs regular adjusting anyway, so I am still doing the same thing: keeping pH where it needs to be to put my CSI where I want it (which in my case is slightly negative to keep calcium off my SWG's plates). So the lower CSI from the salt is not an issue for me, as I want CSI a bit negative anyway. I believe you'll be in the same boat.

I'm around 80° just now. As it continues to rise, and while my plaster continues to drive pH up, I'll continue to control my CSI target with pH. Once I get to 85-90° temp, and my pH-rise stabilizes a bit, I'll manipulate the other levels as needed to keep my CSI in check. Because I top off my pool with CH-zero water (by what I learned in one of my other threads), I can maintain CH where I need it to be to help keep CSI where I want it.

But next winter, when the temps drop, I'll have to relearn some of this, because maintaining the CSI will be a new challenge, as I've yet to live though a winter with an SWG pool.

I think the short answer is (and what I'm going to try), if I can't keep CSI where I want only by adjusting pH (while keeping pH within the recommended range), then I'll start moving the other levels as needed for my CSI. I don't want to add or remove salt. And TA kind'a wants to live where it wants to live. So the first victim will be CH, which unlike some pool owners, I can move around at will.

You don't have to peg pH at 7.5. "In the sevens" seems to be the prevailing advice around here. And the prevailing advice here for an SWG pool is to shoot for a lower CSI (like as low as -0.3). So once you add salt, your CSI will drop a bit, but that will likely be OK for your pool and your SWG, as it is for mine.

 

[jimim]

I can easily keep my csi at a negative .3 if need be and still have a ph in the 7.6 range then. I was thinking I have to be st 0 or very slight less negative.

Thsts all great info. I appreciate that.

 

[Dirk]

I kept reading "slightly negative" all over, but without a specific number. So I thought, what? -0.01? -0.05? -0.1? But lately I've been seeing more and more references to "somewhere between 0.0 and -0.3".

Wanna 'nother wrench in the works? Since my pool't temp can vary by 10° a day, and temp greatly affects CSI, what's do be done about that?! I guess I'll use the average temperature to dial in my CSI.

And here's yet another thing I'll be working through. Even with a clearer definition of "slightly negative," for me, the better indicator will be the IC40 itself. Much like the salt level, where the actual number is less important than whether the SWG will fire or not, I'm less concerned about how negative to run CSI than I am about whether the IC40 is caking up or not. So I'm starting with hovering CSI around -0.15 or so, and checking the IC40 periodically for calcium build up. I'll continue to monitor and fool with CSI until a trend emerges. If I can keep CSI at zero and have a clean SWG, great. But if -0.3 is what it takes, so be it.

All that said, I'm reminded here, often, as I pursue these OCD-driven goals, two things:

1. CSI is a guide, an indicator, of what your plaster might tend to do, etch or scale, and is not necessarily a definitive prediction of what your plaster will do.

2. That pools are in flux all the time, based on all kinds of factors, and stressing out over trying to maintain perfect targets is a losing proposition, and can actually create yo-yoing effects that can be more trouble for you than if you let the pool just "do its thing." You keep things in range as best you can, let the pool have a say in just how that's done, and stress less...

 

[lightmaster]

I didn't ask that specifically, but he shared some anecdotal stories that has led him to his opinion, leading me to believe he's been through a lot of the major brands, in some way or another. As I was writing the previous post, I almost included: that he is a Pentair authorized warranty station. So I don't know if that also makes him a dealer. And so his opinion about anything, any brand, is likely suspect. Just one guy, that works on pool equipment more than me. Nothing scientific, for sure. I was just happy he didn't have anything bad to say about Pentair, or my IC40.

But then he warned me that I should be running my pump for 12 hours a day, and that topping off my pool with soft water was a horrible idea. Pool guys. What'da ya gonna do.

Speaking of anecdotes, this was amusing, and I finally discovered something redeeming about test strips. That was the first thing he did. Didn't look at the IC, didn't question me about what I've been tracking about its performance. Just walked over to the water, stuck in a salt test strip, and declared, "Yep, you need a brand new SWG!"

Yay for test strips!!

Pentair requires a professional to do any installs or repairs, so of course he prefers for people to use Pentiar SWGs, lol. You're always gonna love whatever makes you the most money. Just curious though, did he have anything bad to say about Circupool SWGs since they split from Compupool?

 

[Dirk]

Pentair requires a professional to do any installs or repairs, so of course he prefers for people to use Pentiar SWGs, lol. You're always gonna love whatever makes you the most money. Just curious though, did he have anything bad to say about Circupool SWGs since they split from Compupool?

I asked him that specifically. And didn't really get a definitive answer, though it wasn't pro-Circupool. He's of the mindset that Pentair is "everything water," based on their experience with a vast number of products, not just pool-related products, and that there entire product line benefits from that experience. He thinks the nice features of some of the other brands (which I asked him about: clear bodies, replaceable plates, etc) are part of their scheme to make up for the generic, low-grade components they use (which is what he sites for their reliability issues). Something like that. Really, I probably shouldn't have even brought it up. This was just one guys take on it, colored in some way, no doubt, by his relationship to Pentair. Not really something to consider seriously. I was just saying it felt good to hear good things about my setup from someone that repairs that same product line. I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

 

[Dirk]

SWG Journal


About 8:00 PM and I tested:
FC: 4.5
pH: 8.0
Temp: 79

OK, got the SWG replaced, and it worked today, so I'm kind'a starting over here! FC was a little low. I'll give it another day without manual dosing to see what the new SWG will do about that. pH was high. I might be seeing a trend now, where its rise is more pronounced than it was before SWG, which was expected, but disappointing nonetheless. I had the SWG's operating RPM back down to where it was before I started troubleshooting the bad one, which is 1500RPM/21GPM. So I've reset everything back to where I was before the troubleshooting began, and will now start over monitoring how the new SWG does with these settings:

RPM: 1500
GPM: 21
SWG Hours: 7
Output: 50%

I'll continue to check the FC each day for a while, in the evening (after the sun is off the pool).

ScreenLogic's Chlorinator page is reporting a salt level of 3650 today, which is higher than it ever did with the replaced SWG, and higher than there is salt in the pool. Which I'm fine with. My logic: The SWG has been reporting salt levels all over the place. That seems to be their nature. If the SWG thinks there's more salt in the pool than there is, that's better than it thinking there is less than there is, because if the SWG measures salt low one day, it'll still be above it's shut off point.

Huh?

My salt is at 3200. If the SWG was consistently measuring that low, say at 2800, and then had "a bad day" and measured it even lower, say 2600, then it wouldn't run that day (even though the salt was actually 3200). But if the SWG is consistently measuring the salt high, like it did today at 3650, and then has a bad day and reports 3200, or 3000, or even as low as 2800, the SWG will still fire up, and do fine because the salt is actually 3200.

The reason I'm even trying to convey this is because of what I just went through. My salt level was fine the whole time, but sometimes the SWG would report 3200 and run, and the next day it'd report 2200 and not run, even though it could have made chlorine just fine either day. I'd rather it make it's crummy salt tests in my favor, and just run all the time, and let me worry about, and measure and monitor, the actual salt level. That way, I don't have to unnecessarily pump up my salt level, just to satisfy an SWG that can't measure salt level accurately enough. Which means I can stay at the low end of the range, like I wanted to, and give my pool "room to grow" as the salt level rises due to other forces.

Who'd I lose? No matter, it's clear in my mind!!

 

[kimkats]

LOL Still hanging in and learning!

 

[bizzle]

If you are describing a situation where the SWG thinks the salt is too low but the salinity is actually correct, I believe the SWG will *not* make chlorine even though it could do it. If it reads 2600 when it's 3200, for example, it could make salt but the error shuts it off.

Also, the percentage of the SWG setting is how much chlorine to produce per hour. So 100% is constant production whereas 50% is only turning the cells on half an hour. I read this on the forums so you'll need to verify it, but it also seems to match when I do and don't see bubbles coming out of my returns (50% sometimes I do but not always; 100% constant bubbling throughout the entire hour).

 

[Dirk]

If you are describing a situation where the SWG thinks the salt is too low but the salinity is actually correct, I believe the SWG will *not* make chlorine even though it could do it. If it reads 2600 when it's 3200, for example, it could make salt but the error shuts it off.

That's correct. That's what I was saying. It appears I have an SWG that is "guessing" high, which is to my advantage, because it is less likely to shut down for an occasional low read.

Also, the percentage of the SWG setting is how much chlorine to produce per hour. So 100% is constant production whereas 50% is only turning the cells on half an hour. I read this on the forums so you'll need to verify it, but it also seems to match when I do and don't see bubbles coming out of my returns (50% sometimes I do but not always; 100% constant bubbling throughout the entire hour).

That's also correct. At output 50%, the SWG is not make 50% strength chlorine, it's making 100% strength chlorine 50% of the time. I believe it's by the hour, so 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off, though I'm not dead sure about that.

Further, the cell has a finite number of hours that it will generate chlorine, then it needs to be replaced. But it doesn't matter how you spend those hours. Mine is 10000 hours. So I could run it at 100% for 10000 hours, or I could run it at 50% for 20000 hours. It's not the hours that the generator is "on duty." It's the hours it's actually producing chlorine.

Further still, you can't extend its life by manipulating the output percentage. Like thinking running at 50% won't wear it out as much. Your pool needs X amount of chlorine, your generator will make X amount of chlorine. It doesn't matter if it runs at 50% for twice as long. Or 25% for four times as long. Once it reaches its 10000 hours of chlorine generation, it's done.

 

[Dirk]

Oh, you did just spark a brain cell, though. I panicked earlier today when I went out to check on my new cell. I thought I noticed the "Cell" light was off, which means it wasn't generating. After a minute or two of swearing, I looked again and the light was on. So I thought I just misread it and that the light had been on all along. I now think that light indicates when chlorine is actually being generated, and goes off during its "rest period." I'll have to check on that.

 

[bizzle]

I'll have to remember to check on that, too. I've never seen it off during operational hours but I do admit I haven't stared at it for an hour straight! Easiest way to test would be to look at it when you don't see bubbles from your returns.

 

[Dirk]

SWG Journal


About 8:40 PM and I tested:
FC: 4.0
pH: 7.8
Temp: 78

So I lost FC0.5 today. I dosed manually to add FC1.0, to bring it up to my target FC5.0, and will leave SWG as is:

RPM: 1500
GPM: 21
SWG Hours: 7
Output: 50%

I'll continue to check the FC each day for a while, in the evening (after the sun is off the pool).

Chewed through some pH today. Had to dose that, too. Starting to think I'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 days between MA testing/dosing this summer. Bummer...

 

[lightmaster]

Oh, you did just spark a brain cell, though. I panicked earlier today when I went out to check on my new cell. I thought I noticed the "Cell" light was off, which means it wasn't generating. After a minute or two of swearing, I looked again and the light was on. So I thought I just misread it and that the light had been on all along. I now think that light indicates when chlorine is actually being generated, and goes off during its "rest period." I'll have to check on that.

Mines the same way, generating light cuts off during rest periods, and on during production periods. Honestly freaked me out at first, lol. My SWG is set for 10% for 4 hours, so literally 90% of the time its sitting there doing nothing, with no bubbles in the clear cell. Thought it was a dud or something cuz every time I checked on it it wasn't producing, lol. Finally figured out, like you said, its a percentage of time, not strength.

Glad you're enjoying the convenience of having all Pentair equipment. Personally I'm 100% DIY and Fix-it Yourself (FIY??) and would be really annoyed if I had to void my warranties because I'm not gonna pay someone else to install something I'm capable of installing. Honestly don't understand how allowing DIY work voids a Pentair warranty while its okay with every other warranty I've ever heard of. Mostly annoyed by it cuz I'd like to get a IntelliFlo VSP, but that warranty is a dealbreaker for me. /EndRant

 

[Dirk]

This from the owner's manual. Cell light indicates when my SWG is actually producing chlorine:

Cell: Shows the status of the IntelliChlor SCG.

• Green (flashing): The IntelliChlor SCG needs to be inspected. The blades may have calcium buildup. TheIntelliChlor SCG is not producing chlorine.

• Green: IntelliChlor SCG is good and producing chlorine

• No Light: IntelliChlor SCG is off and not producing chlorine. It may be in an off-period of the sanitizing cycle and will return on shortly.

 

[Dirk]

Somebody made a comment about bubbles out of the returns during SWG production. I was checking SWG status just now, Cell light on (Yay! The new one is still working!) and walked over to the pool and sure enough there were bubbles coming out of my returns. Then they stopped, and I went back to the SWG and the Cell light was off. (And now I know that just means it's in the "off" portion of its normal cycle). So that sure looks to me like the bubbles are being generated by the SWG.

So my questions:

Are those bubble chlorine gas?

Does that mean I'm losing some amount of chlorine to the atmosphere, a few seconds after it's generated?

If so, is that a significant amount?

Is there anything that can or should be done or adjusted regarding the bubbles?

And most importantly: if that is chlorine gas, does it pose any sort of health hazard?

 

[DeanG]

New SWG (IntelliChlor IC40) owner here.. had the same question about bubbles coming out of the returns when the SWG is running.

They're hydrogen bubbles. Hydrogen is a byproduct of the SWG process of converting Salt to Chlorine.
For some plumbing runs, the hydrogen doesn't get dispersed in the water and can form bubbles when it comes out of the return.

As long as you're not breathing the bubbles, you're Ok.

For a cool trick.. hold a lighter in the air just above the return. It'll ignite the bubbles as they reach the surface and make a POP sound.

 

[Dirk]

OK, cool, thanks. So there's no chlorine being wasted. It's kind'a a handy feature then, to see when the SWG is working.

But I don't appreciate the lighter trick... 'cause now I gotta go try it, instead of what I'm supposed to be doing!! :splash: