Need help confirming choices of new gunite build

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

Hi TFP community,

I'm new to this forum and found out about it while doing some research on pool design.

I decided to build a pool without going through a PB. Through my research I ended up selecting the following setup using Pentair equipment:

The pool will be rectangular 32x18 from 3' to 6' deep, with a 7x7 SPA recessed on the shallow end of the pool and a 18'' deep tanning ledge. Similar to the picture attached.
Also attached the diagram of what I'm thinking of doing at the equipment pad with the size of the suction and return pipes.

Pool:
Heater: MasterTemp 400BTU
Filter: 320sqft cartridge filter
Pool Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VS SVRS 3 HP
Automation/Salt CELL: Pentair IntelliCenter i5PS System w/Salt - 5PSIC40
Lights: 4 Microbrite color LED lights
2 Skimmers
2 Base drain in pool
5 returns in pool

SPA:
SPA Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VS SVRS 3 HP
SPA Blower: ??
SPA Jets: 3-jet therapy manifold from waterway on each wall. So 12 jets total.
Lights: 1 Microbrite color LED light
1 return from pool returns line
2 Base drain in SPA: one going to pool pump with the skimmers and pool drain, the other one going to the SPA pump to feed the SPA jets in a loop.

My questions are as follows:

1. Am I missing anything in this configuration? I know the pumps might be overkilled and a 2HP VS might be sufficient, at least for the pool but the price different is not that big so I figured it might be worth it. if the 3HP is noticeably noisier than a 2HP then it might be better to downgrade. What I like about that 3HP pump is that it has an anti entrapment kill switch mechanism if it detects something blocking the flow which makes me less worried if my kids are going to the deep end and play at the bottom of the pool.
2. The tanning ledge at 18'' is not standard but as I was talking to a PB he mentioned that it was his standard in the north east and to be honest it might work as I'm not planning on having chairs there but this would be an area just to seat and soak. I'm also planning on having 2 returns there to make sure there is no dead zone, but I would imagine that people would stay around those returns to have them in their back. Below is the layout of the returns.
3. For the intellicenter, which SPA air blower can I use? Also, the load center is 150AMP I believe but given the equipment I'm planning on having I won't need the 150 amps. I have a 100 amps sub panel close by. Can I connect the intellicenter to my sub panel if I only plan on using less than 100amps or should I rewire the sub panel to accommodate 150amps? I would hope I could just connect it to the sub without upgrading the wiring.
4. Regarding the SPA, I'm planning on having it recessed from the pool coping almost with a negative edge. What should I be aware of and what is the best way to build the SPA. Attached is the design I was thinking about.
5. SPA jets. Is that a good configuration or would it be better to simply have 3 jets at the same hight on each wall to allow for more people to enjoy it?
6. I saw a lot of good recommendations on this forum, so I would welcome any recommendation you might have to improve this setup.

Thank you all.
David.

Pool & SPA layout

Pool section showing the SPA and tanning ledge cross sections:

Equipment pad with lines sizes:

Plumbing Layout:

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

Welcome to TFP.

A lot to go over and let’s begin with DO NOT get the SVRS pump. It is the worst Pentair pump that has ever been made. Every other IntelliFlo pump is the Gold Standard of pool pumps, the SVRS version is the Brown Standard of pool pumps. Any surge in water flow will cause the pump to stop and then it is sometimes very hard to get it to start again.

A 3 HP pump is not overkill. A large HP pump run at a low speed will give you the best electric efficiency and lowest noise level.

You will be installing VGBA compliant drains that prevent entrapment and. a SVRS pump is not needed.

Pentair IntelliFlo Pumps - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Safety Drains VGBA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

This Jandy Blower Installation Manual contains a lot of detail about spa blower and jet sizing…

https://www.troublefreepool.com/attachments/h0507900-3-pdf.455598/

You can use any spa blower connected to an IntelliCenter AUX relay that will turn it on and off.

Look at the Jandy or Air Silencer blowers.

Spa Air Blower - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

pjt · Feb 12, 2023

A few suggestions:

vespaboy said:
3' to 6' deep

3' is very shallow. I'd suggest a 4' shallow end. For the deep end, commit to a true deep end or go with 5' so people can stand comfortably. At 6', it's too deep to stand but too shallow to dive, so it becomes the least used portion of your pool.

vespaboy said:
Filter: 320sqft cartridge filter

Upgrade to the 520 filter.

vespaboy said:
Pool Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VS SVRS 3 HP

Do not get a SVRS pump! Get the IntelliFlo3 (011075) or the older IntelliFlo VSF (011056).

vespaboy said:
Automation/Salt CELL: Pentair IntelliCenter i5PS System w/Salt - 5PSIC40
Lights: 4 Microbrite color LED lights

Good choices. Do you have a approximate volume of the pool/spa? Size the SWG for at least twice the pool volume. Point the lights away from the house or main seating area.

vespaboy said:
2 Base drain in pool

Pool main drain is optional. Simplifies your plumbing and eliminates potential problems. This also completely removes the entrapment hazard.

vespaboy said:
SPA Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VS SVRS 3 HP

Why do you have a separate pump for the spa jets? You can operate your entire system with just one pump.

vespaboy said:
Equipment pad with lines sizes:

I'd suggest 2.5" for pool suction and 3" for the spa suction/returns. I'd also install an external bypass for the heater. I see a chem feeder on the diagram--is this in addition to the SWG?

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

the load center is 150AMP I believe but given the equipment I'm planning on having I won't need the 150 amps. I have a 100 amps sub panel close by. Can I connect the intellicenter to my sub panel if I only plan on using less than 100amps or should I rewire the sub panel to accommodate 150amps? I would hope I could just connect it to the sub without upgrading the wiring.

You can feed the IntelliCenter Load Center with less than 150 amps. It has to be at least 120% of the actual maximum load powered by the Load Center and it can be more but not less.

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

The number of spa jets you have and the flow rate pressure you expect determines the pump flow you need to the jets. Every jet can require 12-15 GPM which for 9 jets would require 108-135 GPM from the pump. That is more than a single pump system can deliver through a filter and heater. And filters, heaters, and SWGs have maximum flow rate limitations.

The first step in designing a spa is to settle on the number of jets, size of jet and how strong you would like the jet to feel. Once this is determined, the following table can be used to determine the proper pipe size and the resulting operating point for the pump.

Gunite Spas - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Here is the way my 8’x8’ spa is setup with two jets on each wall…

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

Thanks Allen this is very useful. I had not seen this Jandy document regarding the air blower

ajw22 said:
This Jandy Blower Installation Manual contains a lot of detail about spa blower and jet sizing…

https://www.troublefreepool.com/attachments/h0507900-3-pdf.455598/

You can use any spa blower connected to an IntelliCenter AUX relay that will turn it on and off.

Look at the Jandy or Air Silencer blowers.

Spa Air Blower - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks Allen. This document about the air blower is very helpful and I'll look into the Jandy air blowers. Somehow I wanted to stick to Pentair to make sure it was compatible with Intellicenter but if any will work it's good to know.

And thanks for the advice regarding the pump, I'll look for another one.

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

You are putting in a SWG and do not need or want a chem feeder or check valve after the heater.

You do want a Heater Bypass - Further Reading

You do not need a spa makeup when you have automation and will use the SPILLWAY mode to refresh the spa water.

You want a 3 way diverter between the pump and filter with a drain line so you can lower the pool water level easily after a big storm.

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

What is the depth profile of your planned pool?

I see the deep end is 6 feet? Why that depth? That is too deep for anyone but NBA players to stand in.

Confirm that will NOT be a diving pool and NO DIVING will be allowed.

AQUA~HOLICS · Feb 12, 2023

Negative edge spa, if the pool water is at the same height or higher as the spa edge when people exit the spa it will be replaced with pool water that may not be at the same temperature as the spa.
Your Shotcrete crew must be on top of their game when building the BB .
I sure do like the look of them.

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

Are you planning on an automatic pool cover to use during the pool season?

Give consideration to how your pool will be covered and winterized.

What type of winter pool cover are you planning?

kimkats · Feb 12, 2023

Hi and thinks for asking us to help build your pool! Lets get started!
-pool depth- 3' is way too shallow. You cannot do a full crawl stroke without scraping your knuckles. Go at least 3.5 or even better 4'.
Look what I have for you for the spa:
ParaJets Massage Therapy Spa Jets - Paramount Pool & Spa Systems Now I have not tried them nor do I know anyone who has but man they sure look neat and might be just what you want.

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

pjt said:
A few suggestions:

3' is very shallow. I'd suggest a 4' shallow end. For the deep end, commit to a true deep end or go with 5' so people can stand comfortably. At 6', it's too deep to stand but too shallow to dive, so it becomes the least used portion of your pool.

Upgrade to the 520 filter.

Do not get a SVRS pump! Get the IntelliFlo3 (011075) or the older IntelliFlo VSF (011056).

Good choices. Do you have a approximate volume of the pool/spa? Size the SWG for at least twice the pool volume. Point the lights away from the house or main seating area.

Pool main drain is optional. Simplifies your plumbing and eliminates potential problems. This also completely removes the entrapment hazard.

Why do you have a separate pump for the spa jets? You can operate your entire system with just one pump.

I'd suggest 2.5" for pool suction and 3" for the spa suction/returns. I'd also install an external bypass for the heater. I see a chem feeder on the diagram--is this in addition to the SWG?

Thanks PJT.

Regarding the depth, I really struggled with it. I agree that 3' is shallow but I was afraid that 5' might not be deep enough so when I was thinking of the different combination of shallow/deep depth and the required slope, it seemed that it needed to be 3' on the shallow end to allow average sized people to walk 2/3 of the length without having to swim. But this is interesting what you are saying about the deep end. Currently the setup is such that the last 5' would be 6' deep and the first 5' after the stairs would be 3' deep like in the picture below. If I were to change the deep end to 5' instead, I would have to think about how to get to 4' sooner and have a gentle slope.

Regarding the filter I'll look at the 520 filter.

It seems nobody likes that SVRS pump. Originally I wanted to go with the Whisperflo 011533 and Easytouch but ended up reading on this forum about intellicenter being a better choice and I think I need the interlliflo for that, so I'll look into the one you mentioned.

Regarding the volume it will be slightly less than 20k gallons so we should be good with the IC40. And yes the lights will be away from the house.

When you say main drain is optional, would you just go with the 2 skimmers and would that be enough ? wouldn't it require more frequent vacuuming because dirt would tend to go to the bottom of the pool?

Regarding vacuum. I didn't plan for suction vacuum line as I wanted to opt for one of those robots connected to power or the battery powered ones which seems the way to go. In a new build would you put a suction vacuum line nowadays ?

The separate pump for the SPA is for the reason Allen mentioned that it's hard to get enough GPM to your jets if you go through the pump and heater. Assuming 10gpm for each jet, I would need 120gpm with the current setup and it seems a separate pump would do a better job, that way the pool pump would be shared with the SPA just for circulation and the jets would be operated on that second pump. It seems this is what Allen has on his configuration.
If I go with only one pump it would mean that while I use the SPA, the circulation to the pool would stop to have enough flow to the jets correct? and when the SPA is not in use, the jets would serve as returns ? would you do just one spa drain in this situation?

Regarding pipe sizes. 3'' for the SPA is what I wanted to go with. The pool drain with 2.5'' (but now I have to read more about whether I can do withtout drains. I was thinking that since I wanted each skimmer to be plumbed separately that 2'' would be enough ? Do I really need 2.5'' if they are independent ?

No, the chem feeder is the placeholder for the SWG, I should rename it. Regarding the bypass, I was reading about the fact that it was recommended for pumps able to generate more than 120 GPM and was considering adding it as well. It seems Pentair has a kit with an intellivalve so I'll probably get this one.

Again thanks those advices!

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

ajw22 said:
View attachment 473039

You are putting in a SWG and do not need or want a chem feeder or check valve after the heater.

You do want a Heater Bypass - Further Reading

You do not need a spa makeup when you have automation and will use the SPILLWAY mode to refresh the spa water.

You want a 3 way diverter between the pump and filter with a drain line so you can lower the pool water level easily after a big storm.

Thanks for that. The Chem feeder was a placeholder for the SWG and I believe it says that you need a check valve before the SWG so that no water goes back to the heater. I was not sure about the spa make-up so good that you mentioned I don't need it. And yes I'll add the drain before the filter. Thanks!

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

ajw22 said:
Are you planning on an automatic pool cover to use during the pool season?

Give consideration to how your pool will be covered and winterized.

What type of winter pool cover are you planning?

I considered an automatic pool cover but since I'm in NJ it seems that I'll still need a winter pool cover, so I'll save the money and only buy a winter cover. In terms of what type of winter pool cover, I haven't really looked much into it yet so I would welcome any recommendation.

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

AQUA~HOLICS said:
Negative edge spa, if the pool water is at the same height or higher as the spa edge when people exit the spa it will be replaced with pool water that may not be at the same temperature as the spa.
Your Shotcrete crew must be on top of their game when building the BB .
I sure do like the look of them.
View attachment 473041

Yeah I like the look but agree with you that first the water won't be as warm as my wife will want! and second it is tricky to build, so that's why I was asking and maybe I will just go like shown in the drawings I posted in which the coping of the 2 walls in the SPA will be 2'' above the pool water but still below the coping around the pool to give that sunken look. do you foresee a problem with this or something I should insist on with the gunite guys?

AQUA~HOLICS · Feb 12, 2023

Have the spa built to your specifications, negative edge or +2”, don’t make your decision on ease of application.
Negative edge spas are not difficult to build if the crew is using a laser level and shooting the BB continuously that way your tile installer will have a easier job.

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

vespaboy said:
. Originally I wanted to go with the Whisperflo 011533 and Easytouch but ended up reading on this forum about intellicenter being a better choice and I think I need the interlliflo for that, so I'll look into the one you mentioned.

Any Pentair VS pump with RS-485 will work with the IntelliCenter.

The IntelliFlo pumps are the best of the Pentair models.

vespaboy said:
When you say main drain is optional, would you just go with the 2 skimmers and would that be enough ?

You don’t need a main drain with a 5’-6’ deep end. A main drain helps in circulation when you have a true deep end hopper.

vespaboy said:
wouldn't it require more frequent vacuuming because dirt would tend to go to the bottom of the pool?

A main drain has hardly any suction and does not help in cleaning the area around it.

vespaboy said:
Regarding vacuum. I didn't plan for suction vacuum line as I wanted to opt for one of those robots connected to power or the battery powered ones which seems the way to go. In a new build would you put a suction vacuum line nowadays ?

No, you don’t want a vacuum line.

There are no good battery operated pool cleaners that clean the bottom.

Plan for where the electrical connection will be for your robot cleaner.

That said I prefer an old school pressure side cleaner.

vespaboy said:
Regarding pipe sizes. 3'' for the SPA is what I wanted to go with. The pool drain with 2.5'' (but now I have to read more about whether I can do withtout drains. I was thinking that since I wanted each skimmer to be plumbed separately that 2'' would be enough ? Do I really need 2.5'' if they are independent ?

All depends on the maximum required flow rates.

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM

vespaboy · Feb 12, 2023

ajw22 said:
What is the depth profile of your planned pool?

I see the deep end is 6 feet? Why that depth? That is too deep for anyone but NBA players to stand in.

Confirm that will NOT be a diving pool and NO DIVING will be allowed.

I just posted the pool profile in my response to PJT. It will not be for diving but I wanted to be deep enough for the kids to have fun and jump but not dive. Would you just go as what PJT suggested to 5' and start at 3.5' or 4'?

ajw22 · Feb 12, 2023

I would do 3.5’ to 5.5’ as measured to the skimmer mouth midpoint.

Search

Need help confirming choices of new gunite build

vespaboy

Member

ajw22

Pentair IntelliFlo Pumps - Further Reading