We made it to gunite... finally!

[ajw22]

They should follow the manufacturers installation instructions and put in the collection tube.

Their is no excuse for them freelancing the installation.

 

[sll0037]

I have a bit of an emergency now regarding the three channel drains. (1. Pool, 2. Spa, 3. Wall Suction).

My builder was adamant that we order dual suction channel drains even though we only had one pump hooking up to each drain.

Well now the plumbers are on site and they said we needed the single suction drains.

As a fix, they are proposing two options:

1. Cap one of the outlets on the channel drain and connect the drain line to only one of the two openings on each channel drain.
2. Loop the drain line for each channel drain
   • I think the reason behind the loop is that the two outlets on the bottom of the channel drain are too close to each other to accommodate a tee. So they'd have to create a loop of sorts to connect each outlet.
   • They stated this loop would result in a pressure drop and poorer performance.

Is there a right or wrong way to remedy this issue?

We have two pumps... one for the pool/spa, and one for the water features which is supposed to have it's own channel drain via a wall suction.

I went through great lengths to source those drains, so I'm beyond upset at this point. I don't know how quickly I could find single suction channel drains.

 

[ajw22]

Cap one of the outlets on the channel drain and connect the drain line to only one of the two openings on each channel drain.

Just use one of the outlets and cap the other.

 

[sll0037]

Just use one of the outlets and cap the other.

Thank you for the quick response.

Is there any possibility I will get dirt or algae collecting in the small void created by the capped outlet?

I’d imagine the pump will suck enough to stir that water and anything trapped in that void, but I’m not sure.

 

[ajw22]

See if the plumbers have a plug that fits into the top of the plugged drain.

 

[sll0037]

See if the plumbers have a plug that fits into the top of the plugged drain.

It looks like the inside comes with removable caps so we can leave one in to avoid leaving a void.

Here is a picture of what they did.

Acceptable?

Is Weld On PVC 711 or 782 suitable for ABS to PVC transitions? I was under the impression that Weld On 794 ABS-PVS transition glue needed to be used at this joints. The plumber swears 782 is better than what the instructions call for.

​

 

[ajw22]

Acceptable?

Is Weld On PVC 711 or 782 suitable for ABS to PVC transitions? I was under the impression that Weld On 794 ABS-PVS transition glue needed to be used at this joints. The plumber swears 782 is better than what the instructions call for.

All looks fine.

 

[sll0037]

Well the plumbing was done and we are set for inspection tomorrow.

The system was pressure tested again, this time with the pressure set to 25 PSI at about 4p today. It's gotten a little colder outside now and the pressure has dropped to 23 PSI. What PSI value or drop would indicate a leak?

What's a bit interesting is that I bought three channel drains that were all the same. Two came with the white pvc stubs already attached (with the proper glue)... I'm assuming because Pentair wants to avoid the issue of the incorrect glue being used for the PVC to ABS transition, but one of the drains did not come with the pvc stub out, just the bare abs outlet.

My two floor returns are also ABS and called for the same special glue that was not used. The plumbers apparently noted that it was quite a pain to get them glued to the pvc pipe.



Also note the "perforated" pipe for the hydrostatic relief valve in the video below (and the drop of the pipe with glue and primer, quick I hope you didn't see that moment)... I don't know why I actually pictured a pipe with small holes in it, but apparently they just cut slits into it with a razor. Let's hope that dirt doesn't affect the seal.

 

[kimkats]

sigh......................here is hoping for you. It is normal for the pressure to fluctuate due to air temps and such. Now if it keeps dropping then you know there is a problem.

 

[sll0037]

We passed inspection.

Most of the rebar is 3"-5" from dirt. There was a few small sections on the tanning ledge that we 2", so they promised to raise those sections during gunite.

Interestingly enough, we are scheduled for gunite Friday (tomorrow) between 12p - 5p, weather permitting.

• The weather forecast for tomorrow is 90% chance of rain. Predictions call for about 1" of rain, with the heaviest rainfall between 11a - 5p.

The pool builder claims gunite can be shot in pouring rain and if they are shooting gunite and it starts pouring, they'll keep going.

Is this true? Seems like a ton of rain during gunite application is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[JamesW]

We are having a swimming pool built with shotcrete. Our question is, what is the required curing time for shotcrete prior to exposure to heavy rain? We are trying to plan the shotcrete installation when the weather looks most favorable.​

Shotcrete needs to be protected from rain until it obtains its final set, usually 4 or 5 hours. Following final set, it should be wet cured for at least 4 days, preferably 7 days if possible. The exposure to rain would prove beneficial as the rain would assure the presence of moisture for continued curing.

We are having a swimming pool built with shotcrete. Our question is, what is the required curing time for shotcrete prior to exposure to heavy rain? We are trying to plan the shotcrete installation when the weather looks most favorable. - American Sh

Shotcrete needs to be protected from rain until it obtains […]

shotcrete.org

 

[JamesW]

We are having a pool installed and would like to know if shotcrete should be placed when severe weather is forecasted for late in the day or the next day? Is it possible to cover the area after application to protect it?​

Shotcrete is a method for placing concrete.

Concrete has a set time that provides hardness of the in-place concrete.

Final set may take anywhere from an hour to several hours depending on the concrete mixture and the weather.

Hot weather has a faster set time than cold weather with the same concrete mixture.

If the pool is shot in the morning, it may be hard enough to tolerate a rainstorm in the late afternoon.

The concrete should certainly be set by the next day unless there is a very cold overnight temperature or a problem with retarder in the concrete mixture.

Tarps could be placed over the vertical walls to protect them from a sudden rainstorm.

The floor may be harder to protect as the rainwater wouldn’t necessarily drain off the floor.

If concrete is exposed to rain and the surface isn’t washed off in any way, the concrete should be good.

Similarly, if you are expecting freezing temperatures overnight, the fresh concrete must be protected from freezing.

This may require using vented heaters and insulated blankets.

The goal of the cold weather protection is to keep the surface temperature of the fresh concrete above 50°F (10°C).

More details on cold weather protection can be found in ACI PRC-306-16 Guide to Cold Weather Concreting available directly from ACI’s bookstore (concrete.org/store.aspx).

https://shotcrete.org/products-services-information/technical-questions-archive/

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

With an inch of rain expected you are still taking the chance of a cave in on the exposed earth waiting for application. Yes it can be done with the shell being exposed just as the Shotcrete is being applied and being re covered after application, that’s going to be a lot of work for the crew.
I would consider covering it and waiting for better weather.

 

[sll0037]

With an inch of rain expected you are still taking the chance of a cave in on the exposed earth waiting for application. Yes it can be done with the shell being exposed just as the Shotcrete is being applied and being re covered after application, that’s going to be a lot of work for the crew.
I would consider covering it and waiting for better weather.

Well it's been shot with a skim coat of gunite already, but it still looks rather vulnerable.

 

[sll0037]

On another note, the water pressure plumbing test is at 23.5 PSI after 24 hours, started at 25 PSI.

I did notice some water dripping from a skimmer onto a wall suction. The skimmer was filled with water. The pool builder said when they first started the pressure test, the plumbers forgot to put the stand pipe in the skimmer to seal it, so it filler with water. The took out some of the water and hand tightened the stand pipe to run the test, so he assumes it's just water dripping out of that standing water.

The other skimmer is bone dry.

That wall suction also looks even with the rebar, which seems to shallow or pushed into the wall. I imagined it'd be a bit further out given they are shooting 12" gunite walls. It's a pebble top, channel wall suction if that matters.

 

[sll0037]

Well, I spoke to the pool builder about the wall suction channel drain and its not set at the right depth. The plumbers will need to come back out before gunite to reset it at the proper depth (and ensure the floor drains are set at the right depth as well), so no gunite tomorrow. I doubt gunite would have happened tomorrow anyway given the forecast.

This may sound a bit dramatic, but I have deep regret about choosing this builder. I have little to no confidence things are being done correctly due to the sheer amount of mis-steps (both big and small) to date. We'd already arrived at a point where we weren't engaged with the owner anymore, solely the project manager, due to all the issues.

I called the owner back today and had another serious conversation with him about what we could do to get back on track. I'd set the expectation from the beginning of the conversation that my intention was to find a solution to keep our build moving. He stated his preference was to walk away from our pool build, which sort of shocked me. He didn't want to accept ownership for any of the mistakes... he just kept deflecting blame or asking why certain things were issues if they weren't done right. I told him I was confident in my position if he decided to walk away, as I have notes of the daily happenings of our pool and our conversations. I told him quite calmly and respectfully that if we ended up in court, I didn't foresee any issues getting a judgment in my favor.

He finally started backing off that ledge when I kept telling him it was in everyone's best interest to build this pool together. I told him to sleep on it. Let his emotions cool and we could circle back tomorrow. The conversation got a lot better after that, so we'll see where we end up.

He seemed to think that all our issues were because of my request for specific things like spec'ing channel drains, asking for specific pipe sizes to support certain flow rates for waterfalls, returns, etc. or asking for heater bypasses, questioning how high the rebar was propped up, or asking why the water feature wall was not rebar'd to the proper height, per our design.

The pool builder was upset I pointed out the wall suction issue today... he said the gunite crew would have spotted that issue while shooting and fixed it on the spot. I find that hard to believe. My Dad works for a gunite company.

I might be wrong, but I don't see this any differently than building my house. The builder for my house told me very clearly and honestly... this is a partnership. If you see something wrong or not the way you spec'd it while we are building, please point it out. I'll do my best to get it right and catch any mistakes before you, but I'm not always perfect. Easier to fix something as soon as someone sees the issue than hoping it gets fixed down the road. I noticed things like a missing door we added to a wall, bath tub not being framed as we had it designed, etc. etc. and my home builder was happy we pointed it out. These were things we paid for anyway. Apparently my pool builder thinks that's why our pool build has been a disaster and I just don't agree.

 

[HermanTX]

I find that hard to believe. My Dad works for a gunite company.

Have you asked your dad to be onsite the day they shoot the gunite. A professional set of eyes would be helpful.

 

[sll0037]

Have you asked your dad to be onsite the day they shoot the gunite. A professional set of eyes would be helpful.

Unfortunately, my dad isn’t actually part of the gunite crew. He’s a CDL driver who’s responsible for making runs to the quarry to pick up the sand and gravel they used to make the gunite.

Of course, he’s very good friends with all the gunite crews. I almost hired one of them to build my pool, but he’d just started building pools and I didn’t want to hire a completely new outfit. Even so, the same friend has been super helpful with any questions I’ve had since we started with this builder.

I’m sure one of them would come here for me that day, but the problem is they’d likely be shooting pools the same day making that arrangement difficult.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Are you planning on being onsite day of shotcrete?

 

[sll0037]

Are you planning on being onsite day of shotcrete?

I do intend to be here when gunite happens. Thankfully I'm off until the new year.

I've made an effort to be home when the trades are here since I have a flexible work schedule, but I normally didn't interact with them much. The most I've talked to a trade was the plumbers because I was never given a plumbing design and I wanted to ensure they plumbed certain things the way I wanted and this kind folks on this forum has recommended.