Hello, I hope there's a heater expert that can help me here!

I'm trying to diagnose a customer's Jandy LXI pool/spa heater. Customer says the heater doesn't work. On visual inspection, the heater is in good repair, minor wear on the outside of the unit. Wiring and plumbing are clean and leak free. The heater is wired for automation into a Hayward ecom4 and was set for remote thermostat, but for testing purposes I have disabled it and am operating it manually. On the heater, spa mode is selected and the temp is set to its max 104F.

Visual inspection of the heater from the inside is like new, with minor oxidation and some bug carcasses/leaf debris. Wiring and hoses are clean and free of damage. Board is clean and shows no damage. Gas valve has white oxidation on the outside, peculiarly more than anything else in the unit.

When starting the variable speed main pump and letting it rev up to operating RPM of around 2600, the heater kicks on. The heater blower starts up. After a few minutes, the heater shuts off with the "Ignition failure fault" error. I confirmed the gas valve on the external pipe is parallel and the knob inside the unit on the valve is set to on. I confirmed the igniter is in like new repair. The Fenwal blinks with a red LED one time, indicating an air flow fault.

I tested continuity on the air flow switch by placing probes on the leads going into the switch, then blowing into the tubes attached to it. When blowing into the tube from the burner pipe enclosure, I had continuity. When blowing into the tube from the side, there was no continuity.

I never smelled any gas in the entirety of testing. I tested with the external gas valve in both positions, and never smelled anything, however I checked the gas meter when it was in the open position and the meter was moving.

I don't know what else to test, I'm hoping one of you with more experience can help point me in the right direction.

If you need photos or additional info, let me know.

Thank you!

The following gives a rough idea of pH buffering strength with 50 ppm Borates vs. 80 ppm CYA vs. 70 ppm carbonate alkalinity where the strength is buffer capacity in millimoles/liter/pH (that is, the amount of acid per volume needed to move the pH by one unit, but in an infinitesimal sense). I also list the effect of 50 ppm Borates and 80 ppm CYA on TA.

.................................................... 50 ppm ............... 80 ppm ................ 70 ppm
pH .... Borate_TA ... CYA_TA ... Borate Strength ... CYA Strength ... Carbonates Strength ... CYA+Carbonates ... CYA+Carbonates+Borate
7.0 ......... 1.7 ........... 18.8 ............. 0.08 .................... 0.32 ....................... 0.51 ......................... 0.83 ............................. 0.91
7.1 ......... 2.2 ........... 20.3 ............. 0.10 .................... 0.30 ....................... 0.41 ......................... 0.71 ............................. 0.81
7.2 ......... 2.7 ........... 21.6 ............. 0.12 .................... 0.28 ....................... 0.34 ......................... 0.62 ............................. 0.74
7.3 ......... 3.3 ........... 22.9 ............. 0.15 .................... 0.25 ....................... 0.27 ......................... 0.52 ............................. 0.67
7.4 ......... 4.1 ........... 23.9 ............. 0.19 .................... 0.22 ....................... 0.23 ......................... 0.45 ............................. 0.64
7.5 ......... 5.2 ........... 24.9 ............. 0.23 .................... 0.20 ....................... 0.18 ......................... 0.38 ............................. 0.61
7.6 ......... 6.5 ........... 25.6 ............. 0.29 .................... 0.17 ....................... 0.15 ......................... 0.32 ............................. 0.61
7.7 ......... 8.1 ........... 26.3 ............. 0.36 .................... 0.14 ....................... 0.13 ......................... 0.27 ............................. 0.63
7.8 ....... 10.0 ........... 26.8 ............. 0.44 .................... 0.12 ....................... 0.11 ......................... 0.23 ............................. 0.67
7.9 ....... 12.5 ........... 27.2 ............. 0.54 .................... 0.10 ....................... 0.09 ......................... 0.19 ............................. 0.73
8.0 ....... 15.5 ........... 27.6 ............. 0.67 .................... 0.09 ....................... 0.08 ......................... 0.17 ............................. 0.84

You can see not only how 50 ppm Borates increases pH buffering overall, but is a nice complement to the carbonates and CYA pH buffering and provides stronger buffering as the pH rises. So basically you have the carbonates and CYA preventing the pH from quickly dropping too much while you have the borates preventing it from quickly rising too much. Additional info is in this post.

The peak pH buffering occurs when the pH is at the pKa of the weak acid and its conjugate base so for carbonic acid / bicarbonate this is at pH 6.3, for bicarbonate / carbonate this is at pH 10.2 while for H₃CY/H₂CY^- this is at pH 6.8, for H₂CY^-/HCY^2- this is at pH 11.3, for HCY^2-/CY^3- this is at pH 13.3, for boric acid / borate ion this is at pH 9.1.

As noted in this link, the buffer capacity can be calculated from the formula ln(10)*C_buf*K_a*[H⁺]/(K_a+[H⁺])² and the amount of acid or base needed to change the pH by a specific amount can be calculated by the difference in C_buf*K_a/(K_a+[H⁺]) at two different pH values and summing these differences for all of the buffer species. Calculating the effect on pH when acid or base is added when multiple buffer species are present requires iteration since the inverse formula cannot be solved in closed form.

New pool owner here. We opened our pool around May of this year. Unfortunately, I was very poorly educated prior to the build. I didn't understand SWGs, automation, and the like. Our builder, as a result of my ignorance, built am a very nice basic pool. Not his fault at all. After a few months on TFP and a summer of education on TFP and adding chlorine, I realize I probably would like an SWG system, and I might as well upgrade to automation at the same time. My builder is capable of the install, and indicated he would sell equipment at his cost, but he is unable to "educate me regarding options and possibilities" due to language limitations between us! He is a great guy, but his English is limited and my Spanish is nonexistant. I have an Intelliflow VS pump and Jandy lights with no automation. I am running the pump per internal programming. We are not heavy pool users, but thought that if I am upgrading, I should at least plan for future possibilities. I may as well plan for App controlled spa and temperature management at this time. I assume automated valves would be needed for app control. Is the Intellicenter and Pentair SWG most appropriate? I'd appreciate thoughts and input.

Hi TFP Community. Family just embarked on our pool build. Shotcrete was completed last week.

5 years ago, never thought I’d own a pool. EVER.

Wife and son changed my mind and now we are looking forward to this pool-side lifestyle. We live in Southern California, inland dessert region, so the pool will be year-round thing for us.

Here’s a few pics of current construction. Trying to decide on the following. If anyone has input, feel free to add. Been searching the forum

Pool Type: Saltwater 16x32, with integrated 8x8 spa, max 6’ deep

Plaster: NPT Stonescape Mini - Will this be to rough? Haven’t been in a pool with one before and our pool builder, very reputable, recommended it as a sweet spot between aesthetic and longevity, but we’ve had multiple people reference mini pebble being too rough.

Plaster Color: We like Stonescape Black Mini. Dark green in deeper end, with lagoon vibe is appealing to us. Some concerns on it holding too much heat in summer (no chiller pump) but leaning towards not caring because it looks so good.


Decking: Brushed v. Salt Rock Concrete. My wife likes salt rock. I’m indifferent, but don’t want it to look bad. We don’t want to spend a ton and want something that will last, look clean, but not too industrial. A couple threads on issues with the cold and water freezing in the indents of salt rock finish, but not a concern in Southern California. Any recommendations for or against Salt Rock?

Umbrella Sleeves: Plan is to do 5 total. One is already installed on the Baja shelf. Other will be on deck placed where they should help with sun. Used an app to check sun angles through the year, so hopping we do best we can with placement. The design drawing attached details the locations - black dots. Any input on others choice/regrets/positives on where they installed their sleeves?

Gate: Pool builder quoted for wrought iron. We love hog wire/box wire for more of a rustic/country vibe. We need to meet city code, but wondering if anyone has had success with hog wire/box wire install?

Anyway, I’ll be scouring TFP for more info to catch up on the dos and don’ts. Thanks in advance!

I purchased a pool vacuum maybe 4 years ago. I read, I think on here, that DE lasted YEARS.....YEARS. Well, my pump would not prime properly and the pool was not as clear as normal.

1. I changed janty valve o-rings and found the supply side valve was one o-ring short. The pool pump installation company did the first job. I have been prime issues for a while.

2. It still would not totally prime after the o-ring change. I decided to clean it. I'm not weak but could barely lift the filter out of the housing. It was way over time.

I cleaned it, reassembled, no issues, and it totally primed in less than 30 seconds.

I'm going to a cartridge filter when it's time to clean it again.

I just can't deal with DE, and longer.

Thanks for listening to my venting.

Recently, a member reached out to us with a request to conduct interviews with pool owners about their experiences and suggestions for improving pool cleaners. Some of you may have seen his original thread, and you might also remember that this isn’t the first time he’s come to TFP for help. A few years ago, he conducted similar research with the community, and the insights you shared made a big impact.

We’d love for a handful of users to once again participate in this project. Not only will you receive a $50 Amazon e-gift card for your time, but you’ll also get the opportunity to share your unfiltered thoughts—whether you want to praise your cleaner or vent about those stinking robots that always seem to break!

Here’s what they’re looking for:

• Current pool owners who’ve had their pool for at least 6 months
• Owners of in-ground pools
• People who clean their own pool
• Those who own a robotic or pressure-side cleaner (no current suction cleaner owners, sorry!)
• Residents of the continental US

What’s involved?
• A 30-minute phone interview at a time that works for you.

How to participate:

• Use this link to schedule your interview and provide your preferred phone number:

Pool Cleaning Interview - Thomas Davenport

• Prefer email? Reach out directly to: [email protected]

We’re excited to help facilitate this research again and hope some of you will take part. Not only is this a chance to share your experiences, but it’s also a way to help shape future pool cleaning innovations.

Thanks as always for being such a great part of the TFP

For the 4th time in 12 years, the main control board on my Hayward pool system went out (the board is Hayward GLX-PCB-MAIN). Each time the board lasts 2.5 - 3 years so it is out of warranty. Each time the symptoms have been the clock not keeping time and as a result, the pool cycle starts at a different real time each day. I have to say that I am very, very disappointed that Hayward can't make the board last longer than this, and I'm also disappointed that if you call them and tell them the symptoms they tell you the board is bad and you need a new one. But I digress...

The first 3 times this happened I bought a replacement board on Amazon and saved several hundred dollars compared to having a pool repairman do it. I was going to buy another replacement board again, but when I went to Amazon the price had escalated to about $450 (I think the first replacement was about $280) so I decided to see if it was possible to repair the board. I found this thread on TFP at Aqualogic Losing Time? which had a repair detailed in it. I am posting this thread so it is easier to find the information.

The repair comes down to de-soldering / removing, then replacing / re-soldering 1 capacitor (C3) and 1 real-time clock chip (U2) on the board. Between the 2 electronic parts, the total cost was about $10. The parts were found as listed in the other thread at Digikey.com:
1) The capacitor C3 is DigiKey part # 283-2814-ND (manufacturer part # KR-5R5V334-R)
2) The real-time clock US is Digi-Key part #DS1302Z+CT-ND (manufacturer part #DS1302Z+T&R)

A few comments about the actual repair:
a) NOTE that both the capacitor and the clock chip ARE POLARIZED, meaning there is a positive side and a negative side and only ONE WAY to properly mount them! You need to look at the old components BEFORE you remove them to be sure you know which way the new components go back on the board. TAKE PHOTOS before you start so you can check to make sure you are doing it right! Also, the polarity markings on the components were NOT simple + or - symbols. Check before you start how your components are marked and what the markings mean!
b) The capacitor C3 is mounted through the board; this is the type of mounting and soldering I learned 40-some years ago. However, the clock chip U2 is surface-mount soldered and I had no experience with it. However, I do have a son-in-law who is an Electrical Engineer and who is experienced with surface-mount soldering so I ordered the parts along with a new soldering iron with temperature control and small 3mm tips, a board clamp to hold it, and thin 3mm solder.
c) After removing the control board from the panel I could see the capacitor C3 was blown. So I replaced it first and checked to see if it solved the issue - unfortunately it did not. On to the clock chip.
d) Watching my son-in-law doing the U3 chip, the main lesson was to patiently heat the solder connection of each of the chip's 8 pins carefully. He worked on one side at a time, and did not leave the soldering iron tip on any pin solder joint more than a couple of seconds. He was moving down the line and back over and over until all 4 pins on the side came free, then he repeated on the other side so the bad chip was removed. His goal was to reuse the existing solder for the new chip so he didn't create any shorts between the pins with a blob of solder. He held the new chip in place with tweezers and got 2 pins to hold with the existing solder on the board, again never holding the soldering iron on a pin for more than a couple of seconds. Once the first 2 pins were held he worked through getting the other 6 to be held by the solder. At that point he looked through a magnifying glass and decided one of the solder joints needed a touch more solder, and he carefully added a tiny amount.
e) Once complete, I put the board back in the panel. Note that the time will need to be set, when the clock chip powers up it will be at midnight. If you have your pump cycle running at midnight, as soon as you power up the system will start the pumps if everything is working. My recommendation is to change the program so it isn't running at midnight before starting the repair so everything powers up without immediately turning on pumps etc.
f) Once the board was in and powered up I checked that I could turn pumps, cleaner, lights etc on and off, and all worked great. I then set the time on the system to match my iPhone. 3 weeks since the repair and the system has not lost any time, it matches my iPhone perfectly.
g) A minor point, the board clamp that I bought was a cheap one and close to useless as the board has some weight and would slip in the clamp unless perfectly horizontal. If I did it over I would find a better one that would properly hold this board.

Bottom line: I saved a ton of money by spending 45 minutes replacing the 2 bad components and repairing my board. I definitely recommend to anyone to try it yourself before buying an expensive replacement board, especially if you have a friend or relative with surface-mount soldering experience.

I see the local forecast for this week is for a bunch of 3F - 4F mornings, and at least a few days with highs in the teens. So a reminder to those in the northeast... check your chemical storage!

I know 31% Muriatic won't freeze above -80F, but I think 10% Chlorine is only good down to +19F. Between ground sinking and solar gain, plus a little insulative factor of its own, it's likely my little closed storage box doesn't ever hit 19F most of the winter. But at 3F - 19F for two straight days, I suspect it likley will, so I'll be checking in there this afternoon to remember if there's any liquid chlorine left from last season... and move it indoors if there is.

Moreover, some of the other algicides and miscellaneous might not have well-published freezing points. Those will likely come indoors this week, as well. I hate storing chemicals in the garage long-term, but I don't mind doing it for the few coldest weeks of the winter.

Hello TFP!

We built our dream/forever home about 1.5 years ago and now the wife feels it is time to add the pool of the family's dreams. A co-worker pointed me towards TFP as a tool to learn as well as engage for layout and design guidance.

A bit of background:

The site details:

With the background now out there, this is generally where we have landed as far as a wish/spec list goes:

Things we are not too sure on:

We have found a pool builder we seem to enjoy and vibe with. He is also a home builder and does a great job at seeing the overall vision with the skills to tie it all together as we add quite a bit of decking and add the balcony stairs into the overall plan. He knows out budget. He has provided some renderings from our discussion but not the overall cost and equipment list at this point.

I have added the photos of the house as is today and the renderings. I look forward to any feedback, guidance or warnings! Please let me know if you have any questions or clarification requirements to provide the best information.

I live in Oklahoma City, OK, and I’m committed to keeping my pool running year-round. A few years ago, a brutal hard freeze left me with pool-related PTSD—nights of 2 a.m. skimmer basket checks to stop ice from forming, all while temperatures dipped below 15°F for an entire week. Despite freeze protect, one of the underground lines froze over two feet deep and burst, lifting a concrete section of my pool deck over 8 inches. The repair bill? Painful, to say the least.
Since then, I’ve done everything to protect my pool: covering equipment with a heavy-duty tarp, using heat lamps—you name it. But the stress lingered. That’s until this year, when I stumbled upon a 1250-watt pond de-icer. It’s a game-changer. I placed it in the pool right at the entrance to my skimmer, using a sandbag to hold it steady about three-quarters of the way down its cord.

The results? Incredible. Over the past week, with snow and sub 15°F temperatures, my pool has stayed completely ice-free. Not a single shard of ice! This de-icer, rated for just 300-gallon tanks, somehow kept my 15,000-gallon pool at 39°F. It’s like magic.

Now, I can travel without worrying, and my wife can relax knowing the pool is safe. For $50, this little device is an absolute lifesaver—and I’m kicking myself for not finding it sooner.

Update 4/27/20222:
Finally decided on design and pool equipment. Submitted for Permit and it is now approved.

Working through getting bids and scheduling trades. Thank you to all that has helped so far.



Pool Equipment:
Pump: Pentair 3hp VSF 11056
Filter: Pentair 520 sq ft cartidge filter
Salt Water: Salt system- IC60
Heater: 400 Nat Max E Therm Black
Automation: INTELLICENTER I8PS POOL/SPA CONTROL
Lights: Pentair Microbrite (1 on baja step, 2 in pool, 1 in spa)
Autofill: MP Auto Fill Leveler
SILENCER BLOWER 1.5 HP, 220VOLT



Original:
I am new to this group but I have found so much useful information. I am still reading through all the important details of pool construction and additional reading for various sections so still lot for me to learn.

I am going to go owner build route in hopes to get my pool completed in time for the hot summer here in Arizona. I have been working with a consultant that will get all the required plans and engineering docuemnts for permit and contractors.

I do not have the list of all the proposed equipment since I have not decided on the final design but here is the first draft of the design. Are there any design issues that stick out on the intial design? Any feedback is appreciated and I will continue to update everyone I move along this journey.

Does service factor have any value?

In my opinion, it has no value. In fact, I think that it only causes problems and confusion.

The only number that really matters is the Total HP of the motor.

Motor makers make two identical motors and label one as 1 hp with a 1.65 service factor and the other as 1.5 with a 1.1 SF. Both have 1.65 total hp.

Then, pump makers do the same thing with pumps. They make a full rated pump and a max rated pump that are identical.

This creates inefficiency in the supply chain by making distributors and retailers carry more total inventory.

This also creates confusion for people who buy pumps and motors.

In my opinion, it's time to end service factor and only rate motors and pumps by total hp.

We hadn't used the jetted tub in a year or two when the Mrs asked recently if she could, and I promptly cringed. Lemme clean it first and then I'll keep it purged if it keeps being used.

I got a bunch of gunk out and the ahhsome lived up to its name yet again. I was kinda surprised there weren't any big chunks but also happy I didn't have to fish out said big chunks.


The 1st round started to loosen the crud, and then 4 more rounds to blow clean foam.

I guess I'd been in denial for the last week-10 days. The pool looked "off" and lacked sparkle. I knew it but kinda made up excuses in my mind. I had a swim last night with the pool lights on and that snapped me out of it. Floaties and ick were undeniable.

10 hours into SLAM number 1, 13.5L chlorine so far...
Pool has cleared up significantly already but I'll be staying the course and following the process through to conclusion.

Yesterday the cloudiness from the light was so thick and I could even see blobs of stuff


Dragged my son out to have a look tonight at the change in clarity and he said he just thought our pool had finally gotten old enough to go "like everyone else's pool"

I’ve searched and have read several threads with what appears to be the same issue. I’ve tried everything I’ve seen suggested but no luck. Here’s what I’ve done...

- new start capacitor
- spun the impeller from the motor side using a screwdriver
- spun the impeller from the strainer basket side with my finger, it seems to spin fine
- tried tapping the motor with a hammer while humming

Any last minute suggestions before I have the motor replaced tomorrow?

Hi folks,

I know everyone here says to 'just use chlorine', when it comes to sanitisers, but nonetheless, I wonder if anyone can weigh in on this.

Peracetic acid (PAA) - made from mixing concentrated hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) with acetic acid (vinegar), and using an acid catalyst to kickstart the reaction - is apparently a strong chlorine alternative for municipal water treatment. (Seems to be raved about in that industry.)

I wonder of its usefulness for pools?

It seems to be stronger than chlorine as a disinfectant in many cases, it can be used as a steriliser (unlike chlorine), and it doesn't form disinfection byproducts (DPBs) like chlorine can (at least if chlorine's not done properly).

AFAIK, PAA doesn't last very long - when added to regular water it breaks down in under an hour, or even in mere minutes. It does seem to leave residual h2o2 (and also PAA is always sold in solutions which have a certain degree of h2o2 in it alongside the PAA), but I know that h2o2 is more of an oxidiser rather than a good sanitiser (microbe killer), and h2o2 can eat away at chlorine, so the h2o2 isn't a benefit in most cases.

But could a PAA 'zap' of a pool - including swishing water around with the pool broom to make it react with the whole pool depth rather than just the top - help reduce chlorine usage overall, if it means less surviving microbes are needing to be handled by the chlorine?

(I like how borates can lessen the amount of chlorine needed by stabilising pH and also by acting as a mild algaestat. Could PAA similarly increase chlorine's effectiveness, because of how strong it is?)

As for algae, I have concerns / am confused. I see scientific discourse that seems to suggest that PAA can actually serve as useful fuel to help algae grow, not kill it. If true, it'd only be advisable when pool is already crystal clear and no nascent, cloudy / mature algae present. Perhaps dosage matters - higher PAA concentration harms algae and lower helps it.

About residuality, I'm confused as to why PAA is so useful in pre-treating city water, if it barely lasts for long in the water - is it a quick but extremely effective 'zap', as I'm suspecting? And does the residual acetic acid (the other byproduct) break down later in the stream? (If not, it would taste and smell a bit vinegary right?)

Lastly I wonder if PAA has usefulness for 'spot cleaning' or helping to rid biofilm from plumbing lines. I know chlorine shocking can do everything, but it's interesting to think of alternatives out there. Doing a supershock for days on end because of a small area seems exhausting and maybe not always the most economical choice.

What I do know is that peracetic acid is hazardous stuff to handle. PPE is needed (gloves, eye protection, clothes) - don't breathe in, preferably decanter it outside, don't spill on skin, and don't get in eyes.

Any benefits to it?

Thanks,

fresh

P.S. How's this for diving into the deep end?

Orenda Technologies has recently unveiled a new start-up program that is somewhat similar to the onBalance Bicarb start-up process.

Instead of adding sodium bicarbonate, Orenda adds calcium (calcium chloride) to low calcium tap water while filling brand-new plaster pools, which also like the Bicarb start-up, prevents the formation of plaster dust. We at onBalance have received numerous communications asking us if this Calcium program is compatible with, or a viable alternative to the Bicarbonate Start-up Method that also prevents plaster dust. The answer is a qualified yes.

The Orenda start-up program can, in certain situations, be an effective alternative to the Bicarb Start-up program which the onBalance team has been promoting for many years. It follows closely the principle of adjusting “aggressive” fill or tap water to a positive CSI number, preferably to about +0.5 for the filling of new plaster pools.

It is known that aggressive fill water (any negative CSI) is detrimental to new and vulnerable plaster finishes, including quartz and pebble, and can lead to plaster discoloration and deterioration problems developing afterwards.

Adding either calcium chloride or sodium bicarbonate to soft fill water will increase the CSI and will help prevent plaster dust and damage to new and (slightly) unhardened pool plaster. Under magnification, the plaster surface remains smooth, dense and hard, without etching caused by aggressive fill water. That in turn, will help plaster surfaces last and look good for 20 years or more instead of just 5 to 10 years before they start looking worn, deteriorated, and stained.

Both the Bicarb and Orenda “Calcium addition” start-ups work by achieving a combined calcium and alkalinity content of at least 400 ppm (minimum) and up to 500 ppm of the fill water, and an CSI of about +0.3 to +0.5. It is also important for the pH to be maintained below 8.2.

Orenda also claims that adding their chelating product SC-1000 during the start-up process helps prevent potential calcium scaling issues.

The immediate visible evidence that these start-up programs are superior to the NPC or Traditional Start-up is by observing that there isn’t any plaster dust developing once the pool is full of water as is sometimes seen, even with quartz and pebble finishes. The Traditional and NPC start-up program doesn’t balance the fill water until a day to two after the pool is full of water. That is too late. The damage has already occurred.

Click on the following video links to see the positive results of the Orenda start-up program:
Orenda No Dust Startup - Orenda Technologies
https://orendatech.com/varx-startup-tank/

As with most things, there are always variables to consider. If you are in an area where the calcium hardness level does not generally increase in your pools, then the Calcium addition start-up program would be a viable program to follow. However, if you are in an area where the calcium level does increase, and you want to avoid increasing it with chemical additions, then in our opinion, using the Bicarb start-up is preferred. Lastly, having an adequate amount of alkalinity is crucial to "carbonating" the plaster surface.

Click here to see the onBalance Bicarbonate Start-up page:
The Bicarb Start – Pool Help

My pool chlorine use is ~3.5 ppm/day during summer and about 1ppm/day over winter.

For our cheapest available liquid chlorine that works out at about $1 per day in summer and $0.30 in winter. Split that 50/50 and you get about $237/year in liquid chlorine.

My SWG cost me $875. The first cell lasted 8 years, so $108/year. Plus $15/yr in salt for backwash and top ups.
It gets used for 5 hours a day and draws on average about 80W in summer over those 5 hours. Make it easy and use that all year round. So 146KW/h == $36.50. Total $159.5.

The SWG costs me %67 of what it would cost to use chlorine liquid. Less if I properly did the power sums.

I replaced the cell 2 years ago, and if I get 8 years out of that one then the capital comes down to $62.5/yr.

Not that I needed convincing. Not having to worry about frequent testing or dosing is worth infinitely more, but it's interesting to run the numbers and I was prompted by stumbling across the receipt for this SWG bought back in 2009 earlier tonight.

So easy! Post ONE pic related to the theme title above. I bet you have a good pic saved somewhere. See the contest rules below to enter.

PLEASE READ OUR (UPDATED) RULES BEFORE POSTING! ----> TFP Pool of the Month Contest Rules


Photo contests are announced on the first of each month. There is a 5-day submission phase. Days 6 & 7 are for voting. Winner announced on day 8. Winner eligible for a $50 prize.


It's easy! What have you got to lose? You might receive a $50 discount code from TFtestkits.net.

Click Here to See Some Previous TFP Monthly Contest Winners​

Hi all,

As the title suggests, I'm new to owning a pool and a complete newb to maintaining one. I've been unintentionally neglecting the maintenance of the pool as I'm renovating my home and getting it ready for us to move in. Unfortunately, I've now left it alone for far too long and it's recently turned green with algae. After finding and joining TFP, as well as youtubing a bunch, looks like I'll need to SLAM the pool. I've already ordered the TF-Pro kit on the 26th but looks like it won't arrive until the 2nd. Should have ordered the Taylor kit from Amazon for faster shipping, but too late at his point. Until the kit arrives, can anything be done for the time being to control the algae growth?

Eliminating the algae is top priority, as well as understanding the process to properly maintain the pool, but since I'm a complete newb to all aspects of having a pool, I'm hoping the experts here can educate me a bit about my pool.

For starters, I don't have a rectangular pool, more so oblong, and using Pentair's calculator, my pool should be 14,500 gallons not including the spa, so perhaps 15,000 all together. I have a heated Pentair system, and while I can see the model for the filter and heater, I can't make out the model for the pump. Is there a way to identify this?

I attempted to hook up the vacuum hose to the skimmer and observed two things. The first is that I don't see an access hole inside the skimmer after removing the basket. It has another filter cover that I can't seem to remove and I don't see much suctioning or water movement inside the skimmer. The second thing I notice while attempting to remove that piece while placing my fingers inside, I can move a "block" around and that seem to have unblocked the access and allowed the suctioning to happen. Is this normal?

skimmer with basket on



skimmer with basket off



There's another skimmer-like access at the other end of the pool that I haven't been able to open the cover for mainly because it's on pretty tight and I don't want to risk damaging it. Not sure what it's used for?



Lastly, at least for now since it's almost 1am as I'm typing this, there's a pipe for the return, but then I see this other pipe that is capped off. Anybody know what it's used for?



Anyways, I'm glad to have found this site and hope to get some assistance with dealing and maintaining my pool. Appreciate any and all assistance in advance!

After almost two years, Pentair has published new IntelliCenter firmware. The previous 2.xxx firmware had so many problems that Pentair withdrew it from their website. Hopefully they've fixed problems and added capabilities without introducing additional new problems.

Thanks @SA Pentair User for the heads up.


Post your experiences here to help others decide if they want to try the new firmware.

Alright, I will try to make this short. We are building a new pool. Freeform with the hot tub part on one end, 527sq. feet overall. I originally wanted to do a Pentair Mastertemp 400 gas and Pentair Ultratemp 140 Heat Pump. The problem is my pad doesn't have room for both. So am I better off with just the heat pump or just the gas pump?

This is how we plan to use our pool. We live in Florida. In the winter, the temps can get into the 50's, every once in a while the 40's. But during the day in the winter, 70's-80's. I'm not worried about summer. We will use the hot tub every day, in the evening for sure. The pool we like to keep at 85-88 degrees. We would like to swim when we feel like it. Maybe some days we do, some days not, but we want to keep my pool ready for swimming. Then if we decide to throw a pool party, I don't want to have to plan 2 days ahead to heat the pool. We have never had a pool with the hot tub part of the pool. In the past we had separate everything.

1. Can I just heat the spa when I want to use it- without having to heat the pool body of water. So in the winter, if it's in the 60's and I am not planning on swimming at all, the pool might be in the 60's (and the spa too), but I only want to heat the spa in the evening when I want to use it. Will the heat pump work for this? (Spa is 1500 gal). Do I need to tell my PB to plum things a certain way to accomplish this? or is this standard?

2. How long to bring a pool from 60 degrees to 88 degrees with the heat pump? What about the gas heater? We plan on keeping the pool heated, but we do not want a pool cover as we don't really have room to keep it and they are heavy.

3. How common is it to have both the heater and heat pump?? Should I try to find a way to make the room?

Curious about others thoughts.

(I have no affiliation with any of the vendor or product below, I was not asked to write any reviews and I have received nothing in return. I am just a first-time pool owner sharing my experience )

poolpartstogo.com

• Quick shipping: I placed the order on Friday April 26th, the order shipped via UPS on Monday April 29th and was delivered on Friday May 3rd.
• Great customer service: I originally placed an order for the 2HP version of the pump. After reading TFP I decided to go with the 3HP version instead. I submitted a ticket to PoolpartsToGo and they responded very quickly. They agreed to take back the 2HP pump (under their return policy) because the box was unopened and they even paid for the return shipping. The responses were very quick and helpful. I have also emailed them questions about this product (and others) and they have always been helpful. 10/10 I am very happy with all of my interactions with this company.
• Discount: They seem to often have a new 10-15% coupon code advertised on the top of their site, and they honor it. If you don't see this coupon, sign up for their email list and wait a few weeks for the next promo code. It seems like they do this all year around.

The Black+Decker 3HP VSP

• Price: Currently $1,020 after a 15% discount. Great price.
• Warranty: 5 year warranty. This warranty is directly to the end user and doesn't require professional install. I have never had a warranty issue so I can't comment on it.
• Installation: I paid a local pool pro to install the pump. He explained to me that he isn't familiar with the Black+Decker pumps and wouldn't offer them to customers because theres no local network of suppliers or distributors for quick access to replacement parts or pumps or warranty service if a pump breaks. They don't want to leave customers without circulation in their pool for extended periods of time. I understood this risk and understand that if my pump stops working it may take longer to get it back in service vs other brand name pumps.
• Compatibility: The inlets and outlets seem compatible with 'brand name' pumps - so it's pretty straight forward to swap them in.
• Noise: Very quiet compared to the dual speed Jandy pump that it replaced
• Energy Usage: I have the pump on 24x7 @ 1500RPMs, it uses about 215W (roughly $20/month in electricity here)
• Reliability: The pump has been running 24x7 since May with no hiccups. The pump has survived Florida summer heat and storms. A hurricane passed through and we had some power brownouts and blackouts which resulted in the panel showing an "under voltage" error - understandable because of the power fluctuations - however the pump resumed normal operation as soon as I hit "start".
• Panel / automation: The configuration panel is dead simple. I purchased this automation panel but never installed it. Our pool originally had a Jandy dual speed pump so I dreamed up big plans to automate the run time, RPMs and schedule of the new pump to keep electricity costs in check. But after seeing that I can just leave the pump at 1500RPM 24x7 for minimal cost I decided to keep things simple and just run the pump on that simple setting.

Overall the pump has been excellent and I have no regrets about the decision to get it. I know 2 other people in my area who have Black+Decker pumps (lower HP versions) and they have had the same excellent experience with their pumps (they have had their pumps for longer than I have had mine - maybe 2 or 3 years).

I'm hoping that this review will help normalize B+D pumps and ease concerns for anyone who is considering a B+D pump.

I’ve loved my SWG over the past few years. Even with having to add salt and clean the cell every few months, it’s so much easier than dealing with buying, transporting, storing and deploying liquid chlorine constantly. But a recent salt-stain event had me questioning the SWG if there is iron staining from the salt. So I tested several brands and types of salt.

If you want to skip the detail, I concluded: Buy the salt with least amount of iron and, when distributing it, dissolve/distribute it well, not leaving a layer on the pool surface for more than a few minutes. Diamond Crystal and Clorox had the most iron, “Morton” and “Salinity” brands had less iron. “Aquasalt” had the least iron (zero), but tough to find at a reasonable price.

Along the way I got “pool-stored” a bit, that and other details follow….

My “stain event” occurred when I dumped a full 40 lb bag of Clorox pool salt on the top step (as I usually do), but about an inch deep of salt sat there covering the large oval step for a couple hours (after I was interrupted by a post-hurricane power outage). When I came back and brushed it into dissolution there was a noticeable brown stain left on the step – picture enclosed. This prompted me to test several different salt brands for iron content.

Results of the iron tests follow, but I might first note that I usually maintain my chemistry well and keep CSI very close to zero, but this day/week the PH may have floated up towards 8.0 or 8.2 as I was dealing with other post hurricane matters. I think I read that high PH may increase sensitivity to iron staining. Full chemistry at the time: FC 5, PH 8.2, TA 50, CA 200, CYA 25, Salt 2700, Phos 150, WaterTemp 87, CSI 0.1

My test method was arguably extreme, but it was just for comparative purposes. I dissolved 1 lb of each salt brand into 32 oz of water, then tested with a “Hanna Iron (Fe²⁺ & Fe³⁺) Chemical Test Kit model HI3834. Instructions state that it detects the combination of ferrous and ferric ions by first reducing the ferric ions to ferrous. Given the extreme ratio of salt to water, not all salt dissolved, in each case a layer of salt remained on the bottom of the container. And yes, my test reagents expired 7 years ago, but the results are similar to what I was seeing when testing years ago on well water that stained concrete over the course of a year or more from well water irrigation.

Except where noted most of these brands can be had for about $7-$9 per 40lb bag at various big box discount stores. As noted Salinity and AquaSalt were pricier. Detailed results follow, in order of most iron to least iron, noting this may vary from batch to batch. When you research how it’s mined and packaged, there is a lot of variation, depending on many factors such as the original source and all the equipment that comes in contact with the salt along the way.

Edit 1/4/2024: See also post #71 far below, where @AUSpool kindly re-summarized these results to include some additional insights we had gathered about purity and ingredients - from the web and from statements on the salt bags.

Diamond Crystal Water Softener pellets: ~1.0 PPM (mg/L). Slow dissolve, about 45 minutes if they’re not stacked. The pellets look like peanuts.

Diamond Crystal Splash Ready Pool Salt: ~0.5 to 0.75 PPM. Dissolves a lot like morton into smaller clear glassy crystals, then rather slow to finish dissolving over perhaps an hour.

Clorox: ~0.5 PPM (mg/L) iron, maybe higher. Fast & easy to dissolve but clumps if stored for awhile. This is what stained my step surface when an inch of it was left on the surface for a couple hours. Noting again that my PH was running high at 8.0 or 8.2 at the time of stain.

Morton Professional’s Choice Pool Salt: 0.2 ppm / just a trace of iron. A bit slow to dissolve as it first half-dissolves into clear smaller crystals, much like the diamond crystal splash ready.

Salinity brand...... Just a trace of iron, $15/ bag from pool store. Label states “high purity salt for swgs - premium salt blend fine granular quick dissolving with *stain inhibitor” (says imported, ‘Amanaplast’ logo) - Note this finer powder, like Clorox, dissolves quickly when swished or brushed but when spread 1/4" deep takes longer than some others. This would be runner up to the winner, except for the fact that we have no idea what the ”stain inhibitor” chemical is, no ingredients listed. A bit of sequestrant perhaps? Most TFP folks don’t like adding unknown chemicals.

Aquasalt: ZERO trace of iron. This would be the clear winner – except for the price. Very fine and almost powdery, dissolves easily, much like Clorox. But it’s $25/bag from Leslies, delivered. Leslies asks only $12.50 per bag but charges another $12.50/bag for delivery and they won’t ship to the store. I called corporate and a store, no joy. A friend of mine has access to a local wholesale distributor and they told him the price would be $7.50/bag but they never have it and seem uncooperative to order it. Weird that.

More thoughts/speculation:…. Reading the instructions on many salt bags, they advise of course to distribute the salt around the pool, don’t do what I did and leave it stacked in one place for hours. But that seemed bogus to me, since I wondered if I’m simply staining the entire surfaces – just more slowly, gradually. So I continued to wonder about the long term effect of having added more than 1000 lbs of salt over a few years. Still, the pool water itself registers zero trace of iron using the Hanna test kit and all the surfaces look pristine, except for my “stain event” – that I cleared with a sockfull of ascorbic acid powder.

Then I speculated that, like CYA and salt, the summer rains and resultant overflow are probably clearing the iron just like that same overflow & splashout removes CYA and salt itself. Unless the iron is stuck stained to surfaces, gradually staining all surfaces, ugh.

So – not to worry? After all that hoopla and work, I suppose I’ll just buy Morton pool salt and dissolve & distribute it well – LOL.

“Poolstored” sidebar…. While buying the “Salinity” brand from the local PinchAPlenty store I asked the tech if they ever carry Aquasalt. He said no, and he added that he would never buy salt from the big box discount stores. Naturally I asked if he used the stuff I was buying from his store. He said no. So I asked where he buys his, and he said “I can’t tell you – since I work here”. Sigh. If anyone finds a good way to acquire Aquasalt I’m all ears!

As implied by the picture, for stain removal I first started with some vitamin C tablets, then acquired a 2 lb container of ascorbic acid for $17 from wallymart, then used the sock – very simple and easy. Then I got to wondering what happens to the iron that I “wipe off” with ascorbic acid – does it settle elsewhere eventually? Some good threads exist here in TFP on iron removal – many thanks to @Texas Splash, @JoyfulNoise, @Brian Malone, @BoDarville and many others for all those comments in threads such as getting rid of iron and rust and Polyfill and iron binding during AA treatment and related threads. Just for grins I fashioned some polyfill around my cartridge filter and also tried the “aquabag” for a few days on a return port – but never captured any visible iron using those methods. Then again those attempts may be moot since I did not run the PH and FC back up to get any iron to precipitate. And reading through those iron removal threads I never figured out if sequestrant should be present when trying to precipitate the iron. Alas – the surfaces look great and the water is totally clear, so I may have just been wasting even more time!

Thoughts and opinions always welcome and appreciated. Happy SWG-ing and salting everyone. … Joe

I am on my second Controlomatic Smarter Spa. This is a drape over Saltwater Chlorine generator for spas. Hopefully this device will last several more years.
But Controlomatic has now closed down. Anyone have recommendations on other aftermarket SWCG systems for spas? When you google this a lot of the results are for the Controlomatic systems.

ICYMI - PENTAIR HOME IS BECOMING PENTAIR POOL

The app updated to the new name on my iDevices.

Day 1 of construction. Roughly 20x38 geometric & curved edge gunite pool. Can post progress & experience if helpful! Completely new to this, but have researched like crazy (type A personality). Very happy with our contractor to-date. No questions at this point, just looking to share this journey if it helps anyone since I referenced this site a lot while finalizing our design choices.

Can’t access Intellicenter on Pentair Home App.
I’ve logged in with the same account that I created on the panel.
When I go to devices on Pentair Home App, the pool is just gray, can’t click on it or access it.

Everything was working on Intellicenter2 app before it forced me to move over to Pentair Home.

The PvC pipe coming out the ground by the slide isn’t connected to the slide because we have had issues getting it to stay connected to the slide. It’s freezing here now. Valve is currently off. Should I just wrap this pipe up with a towel to prevent from freezing? Any recommendations?

OK, I'm a bit fed up with my issue of really fine dirt debris in our pool. I've tried the suction Hose attachment method connecting to my skimmer to the filter -- the process is tedious at best and very time consuming, often only capturing 75% of the debris (it mostly just seems to stir things up). Priming the hose is always a difficult task. Probably just me, but I find this a PITA to deal with. So I'm ready to spend some money for something that reliably sucks up that fine debris. Am I being realistic about this? I'm prepared to spend < $1,000 on a robotic. But seems to be like 3 or so choices.

I would really appreciate any recommendations on your own experiences and what you bought. Are you 100% pleased with your purchase? How is it holding up (maintenance)? Do they REALLY clean perfectly the floor & walls? (Fiberglass here). Dolphin? Nautilus? I'm prepared to maintain the device as parts DO wear out. But I'm in analysis paralysis mode.

Any advice? Much appreciated.