I have never owned a pool before. We are thinking about having a local Blue Haven pool company do a gunite pool for us. They seem to really be pushing their ozone and UV system, but I have been lurking here several weeks and everything I read says to steer clear of it. So I think we'd prefer a SWG system instead. They said they could do one (instead of the ozone/UV/chlorine system) but they'd only drop the price $200. Based on what I read here, seems like the drop in price should be greater.
Thinking of having Blue Haven install a gunite pool
- Thread starter bcm00re
- Start date
- Apr 10, 2018
- 5,150
- Pool Size
- 18375
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45
Welcome.
Choosing a SWG is the right decision. Make sure it is rated for about twice the pool's volume. Make sure you get a variable speed pump for efficiency.
Ozone/UV systems are unnecessary. The builder probably receives incentives from the supplier to push these components. Realistically, they're not even worth $200.
Good luck on the pool build.
Choosing a SWG is the right decision. Make sure it is rated for about twice the pool's volume. Make sure you get a variable speed pump for efficiency.
Ozone/UV systems are unnecessary. The builder probably receives incentives from the supplier to push these components. Realistically, they're not even worth $200.
Good luck on the pool build.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
$200 net to you for trading a ozone/UV/chlorine system for a SWG is a decent deal depending on the model SWG and the cell size.
How many gallons will be in the pool?
What brand/model SWG is the builder offering you?
Stuff in these links may help you during your build...
www.troublefreepool.com
www.troublefreepool.com
www.troublefreepool.com
How many gallons will be in the pool?
What brand/model SWG is the builder offering you?
Stuff in these links may help you during your build...
Construction Best Practices - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
How to select pool equipment - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
I am waiting to get info on the SWG (my salesman is still out deer hunting). We originally had a 18x36 rectangular pool that was about 23k gallons. We are likely going to go free-form instead (maybe with one long side being straight) because they said doing that (going from 648 sq ft to 549 sq ft) could save us about $8k. I like the idea of less water to heat too. We plan to upgrade (from PeebleFina) to PeebleSheen too. The pump is a 1.85hp variable speed with a model number of SP3202VSPBH. They are spec'ing cartridge filter system C4530BHMB. They are doing a pre-filter too that they claim with double the life of the main filter. As for the heater they suggest gas (model number H400FDN) but we have heard good things about heat pumps so might go that way instead. ANY insight anyone can suggest on anything about getting a new pool would be greatly appreciated!
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
OK
OK
Waste of money and just adds complexity to the pool equipment. With a 450 sq ft cartridge you will only clean your filter once or twice a season. And you have a short swimming season.
If you have natural gas service a 400K BTU gas heater is the way to go in MO.
Are the good things you heard about a HP from folks who have them in pools in your area?
Will you have a spa?
Pentair has a Heat Pump Calculator to determine the appropriate size Heat Pump for your location. Pentair seems to do honest calculations based on the physics and efficiencies of each type of pump and energy source.
Raypak also has a Heat Pump Heater Sizing App.
To get the most accurate cost comparison you should change the default electric kwh, natural gas price, and propane price to actual prices in your area.
@ajw22
Thanks for the info! So does "OK" mean "just okay" or "good" or something else?
PB claiming we would only need to clean the filters when opening and closing the pool by having the pre-filter (but sounds like that could be true without it). It sounds like it is a standard part of their installs. They also claim having it will make the main filters last about double what they normally would before needing replacing.
No plans for a spa now or in the future. We know someone who has a heat pump in our neighborhood; it was installed with the pool 2-3 years ago. Friends of theirs in the area have one on their pool and recommended it. We actually have a heat pump to heat our home (with a gas furnace for backup). Last winter I tried to determine the gas really cost us to try to determine if it really had sense to use the HP instead of gas. I never did definitively figure that out. I looked at Pentair's website last night and it seemed to show me like 5-7 different HP models all showing about a $1000 annual savings. The one listed at the top was called a "hybrid" but I didn't figure out exactly what that meant. Pentair shows $0.11/kW which seems correct, and $1.06/therm which I have no idea if it's correct.
Thanks for the info! So does "OK" mean "just okay" or "good" or something else?
PB claiming we would only need to clean the filters when opening and closing the pool by having the pre-filter (but sounds like that could be true without it). It sounds like it is a standard part of their installs. They also claim having it will make the main filters last about double what they normally would before needing replacing.
No plans for a spa now or in the future. We know someone who has a heat pump in our neighborhood; it was installed with the pool 2-3 years ago. Friends of theirs in the area have one on their pool and recommended it. We actually have a heat pump to heat our home (with a gas furnace for backup). Last winter I tried to determine the gas really cost us to try to determine if it really had sense to use the HP instead of gas. I never did definitively figure that out. I looked at Pentair's website last night and it seemed to show me like 5-7 different HP models all showing about a $1000 annual savings. The one listed at the top was called a "hybrid" but I didn't figure out exactly what that meant. Pentair shows $0.11/kW which seems correct, and $1.06/therm which I have no idea if it's correct.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Well since you asked. The SP3202VSPBH is 1.85HP while the SP3206VSP is 2.7HP. I would get the 2.7HP pump which will be more energy efficient.
TriStar VS | Pumps | In Ground Pool Pumps - Hayward Pool Products
TriStar® VS variable speed pool pumps are the most energy efficient on the market, according to EPA ENERGY STAR 3rd party testing data. Saving pool owners up to 90% on energy costs, they are specifically designed to replace most single speed pool pumps.
www.hayward-pool.com
You never run a VS pump at it's full HP. A variable speed pump is a variable HP pump. You run the pump at whatever lower speed and HP best works for your pool.
Let's say for example that your pool needs the pump speed that is .9HP. The 1.85 pump will run at half speed to give .9HP while the 2.7HP pump would run at 1/3 speed. The 2.7HP running slower will use less electricity and cost you less on your electric bill to run.
I am not sure exactly what filter your PB is selling you with the C4530BHMB. I can't find it on Haywards website. You should ask the builder to send you a link for it.
I find...
SwimClear Multi-Element | Filters | In Ground Pool Filters - Hayward Pool Products
SwimClear cartridge filters provide the most energy efficient flow and save up to 2,500 gallons of water per year by eliminating the need to backwash. Available in a wide variety of sizes to meet the needs of all swimming pool requirements.
www.hayward-pool.com
Which lists 425, 525 and 725 sq ft models. We like to recommend you get the largest cartridge filter your budget allows.
I would skip the prefilter and upsize the cartridge filter.
A NG gas heater heats the pool rapidly with a large amount of heat. You can turn on a NG heater a few hours before you want to swim and have the pool heated to the desired temperature.
A HP heats the pool slowly and must be run for long periods of time. You need the pump and heat pump running for most of the day and night to add heat to the pool and maintain the desired temperature. It is best to have a cover on the pool so minimize heat loss when you use a HP. If you lose too much heat it can take a long time for the HP to get the water back up to the desired temperature.
If you get a HP check who in your area will provide warranty support and service. Most pool companies know how to fix gas heaters. Few know how to fix a HP. Pool builders sell HP's that they can't service. So you are good until it fails, then you may be stuck.
Pentair hybrid heater is a multifunction device with both a gas heater and heat pump in it. I don't recommend it since the cost is as much as two separate heaters.
With Hayward equipment, if you want to go down the HP path I would suggest you look at Aquacal or Built Rite (which Hayward just bought) HPs.
Built Right Pool Heaters – Locally Built and Serviced
builtrightpoolheaters.com
Pool Heat Pumps | AquaCal | Source Pumps
AquaCal products for your pool and spa, including heaters, water chillers, source heat pumps and commercial pool heaters.
www.aquacal.com
Are you getting any automation or pool remote control app?
@ajw22
Thank you for the info on the advantage of a higher HP VS pump. Speaking of pumps, the PB mentioned if we added more than one water feature (like a bubblers or LED laminars or waterfalls) then we would need to add another pump for $1800. He never mentioned getting a larger pump which seems odd to me. Does that make sense to anyone else? I did previously ask about how long it would take my (23k gallon) pool to "turn over" and he said the pump moves 80gpm when the it's at full speed so it would take 5 hours. But like you said, I'm sure I won't be running the pump at full speed. What kind of gpm rate should I be running anyway? He said our design needed 3 pool returns, but he suggested having 4. Those are standard jets too. They offer some SmartFlow JetSystems that has 6 special/unique jets, but it is an almost $1400 option and didn't seem worth it.
I see my quote says "Blue Haven 600 series cartridge filter system with MICROBAN". I asked the PB for the model number expecting it might give me more info, but in this instance I see it doesn't. I will find out the area of the filter they spec'd -- and might inquire upsizing it while deleting the pre-filter.
That is a very good point about servicing a pool HP! I will definintely investigate that before I decide to go with one.
The pool by default only comes with a Goldline P-4 controller although the brochure they gave us says Blue Haven SmartControls Pro-5 unit. That said, we want to upgrade to the Omni-Logic system because it will give us control via a phone app. The price for the upgrade is $1850 which seems kind of steep to me, but what do I know?
Thanks again for all the help. I do really appreciate it!
Thank you for the info on the advantage of a higher HP VS pump. Speaking of pumps, the PB mentioned if we added more than one water feature (like a bubblers or LED laminars or waterfalls) then we would need to add another pump for $1800. He never mentioned getting a larger pump which seems odd to me. Does that make sense to anyone else? I did previously ask about how long it would take my (23k gallon) pool to "turn over" and he said the pump moves 80gpm when the it's at full speed so it would take 5 hours. But like you said, I'm sure I won't be running the pump at full speed. What kind of gpm rate should I be running anyway? He said our design needed 3 pool returns, but he suggested having 4. Those are standard jets too. They offer some SmartFlow JetSystems that has 6 special/unique jets, but it is an almost $1400 option and didn't seem worth it.
I see my quote says "Blue Haven 600 series cartridge filter system with MICROBAN". I asked the PB for the model number expecting it might give me more info, but in this instance I see it doesn't. I will find out the area of the filter they spec'd -- and might inquire upsizing it while deleting the pre-filter.
That is a very good point about servicing a pool HP! I will definintely investigate that before I decide to go with one.
The pool by default only comes with a Goldline P-4 controller although the brochure they gave us says Blue Haven SmartControls Pro-5 unit. That said, we want to upgrade to the Omni-Logic system because it will give us control via a phone app. The price for the upgrade is $1850 which seems kind of steep to me, but what do I know?
Thanks again for all the help. I do really appreciate it!
So neither Aquacal or Built Right are in my area. But I went to Hayward's website and it looks like they offer several lines of heat pumps for IG residential pools. According to their website, there are two places locally that service their HPs. I do plan to call them tomorrow to confirm that though.
But I went to Hayward's website and it looks like they offer several lines of heat pumps for IG residential pools. According to their website, there are two places locally that service their HPs. I do plan to call them tomorrow to confirm that though.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The main pool pump pushes water through a filter and heater that restrict the flow and how much actual GPM you can get. A larger pump does not always give much more GPM. It depends on the plumbing and equipment setup.
The flow rates for bubblers and waterfalls depend on the specific ones installed. It is best to have a dedicated water feature pump if they need any significant flow rates.
Water Features - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Pool turnover is a myth. You don't need a certain amount of turnover.
Determine Pump Run Time
To figure out how many hours you need to run your pump, you need to know how fast your pump works. You can find this here.
www.troublefreepool.com
If you are getting a SWG then your minimum pump runtime will be determined by your SWG chlorine generation needs or your Heat Pump runtime needs. Some of us just run our pumps 24/7 at low speed which costs about $1/day in electrical.
3 jets is usually adequate. Depends on your pool design if the fourth gives any real benefit.
The fancy returns are not worth the cost. You will never see a difference.
Blue Haven is Hayward equipment under a different brand. Hayward white labels equipment for other companies to put their label on.
The Microban and other stuff on this page is all marketing to try and differentiate their product.
SmartFilter Swimming Pool Filtration with Microban | Blue Haven Pools
Swimming pool filter helps clean water with super-sized storage tank that provides 6 -12 months of service to save time and hassle. Eliminates needs for backwashing to conserve water. Powerful Microban antimicrobial product protection combats mold, mildew, and bacteria. Learn more...
www.bluehaven.com
They then try and sell you their cartridges...
Blue Haven Exclusive SmartFilter™ Replacement Cartridges with Microban®
Blue Haven Exclusive SmartFilter™ Replacement Cartridges with Microban® 190 sq ft (also fits Hayward StarclearPlus C17502) 225 sq ft (also fits Hayward Swimclear C200S) 450 sq ft (4 required and included in price) (also fits Hayward Swimclear C4030/C4025/C4020) 600 sq ft (4 required and included...
shop.bluehaven.com
Filters don't combat mold, mildew, or bacteria; chlorine does.
If there was a real benefit to it the big 3 - Hayward, Jandy, Pentair - would have it on their products and they don't.
That is a very good point about servicing a pool HP! I will definintely investigate that before I decide to go with one.
The pool by default only comes with a Goldline P-4 controller although the brochure they gave us says Blue Haven SmartControls Pro-5 unit. That said, we want to upgrade to the Omni-Logic system because it will give us control via a phone app. The price for the upgrade is $1850 which seems kind of steep to me, but what do I know?
Goldline is again Hayward.
Get the OmniPL rather then the OmniLogic if you can. It is a newer model with an improved easier to use UI.
OmniPL Smart Pool and Spa Control | Hayward Pool Products
OmniPL™ offers powerful pool and spa automation for mid-range builds and renovations. Designed to provide the same high-end capabilities as our OmniLogic® system, OmniPL brings smart control for variable-speed pumps, salt systems, lighting and more.
www.hayward-pool.com
HAYWARD UNVEILS OMNIPL™: POWERFUL CONTROL PRICED FOR ANY POOL BUILD | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products
The newest member of the Omni® automation family is designed to bring high-end control capabilities to mid-range pool builds.
www.hayward-pool.com
@ajw22
Taking another look at the brochure the PB gave me, the filter system they listed has 600 sq. ft. of filter material. It also says the design flow rate is 100-150gpm.
Thanks for the tip on the OmniPL -- looks like that might be a better upgrade option that should cost less too!
Taking another look at the brochure the PB gave me, the filter system they listed has 600 sq. ft. of filter material. It also says the design flow rate is 100-150gpm.
Thanks for the tip on the OmniPL -- looks like that might be a better upgrade option that should cost less too!
It also turns out a neighbor behind me has a Hayward HeatPro HP21104T that he very much recommends. I knew when his pool was first put in that he had them prep it for a heater. His equipment is on the far side of his house (where it isn't visible to me) so I hadn't realized he bought a heater until I talked with him today. When it's all said and done, our pool will likely have similar volume to his or be a bit smaller. His is fiberglass while we are likely doing gunite (with PeebleSheen) if any of that matters.
Does that just make it last longer? The one he just mentioned is the AQL-CL-20Gx288 that is only rated for 20k-gallon which will be right around the size of our pool.
Well evidently Blue Haven gets discounts only on some Hayward products, and they don't on the OmniPL -- but do on the OmniLogic. So PB is saying Logic unit will be cheaper for me.
In other threads here, some were saying the Logic and the PL had the same UI. So not sure what to believe. Maybe the apps are the same, but the interface on the units is different?
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
A SWG rates for 20K in a 20K pool would need to run at close to 100% output for 24/7 to generate the required level of chlorine.
A SWG at least 2X your pool volume will let you run your sWG at less then 100%, have a longer life, and not require you to run your pump 24/7. You will also have excess chlorine generating capacity should you need it.
Get at least a 40K cell - the Hayward T15 cell.
Well evidently I shouldn't believe the brochures my PB gave me!.
I finally found the pool filter that BH spec'd on Hayward's website:450 Sq.Ft. Cartridge Microban | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products
Blue Haven
www.hayward-pool.com
It's only 450 sq ft -- not 600 like the brochure says.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Well evidently I shouldn't believe the brochures my PB gave me!.
450 Sq.Ft. Cartridge Microban | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products
Blue Haven
It's only 450 sq ft -- not 600 like the brochure says.
You are not going to get 100-150 gpm through it either. With a HP you will probably get 70-80 GPM max through your equipment running your pump at full speed.
My PB said my VS pump at full speed would move 80gpm so that jibes. They are doing 2" piping FYI.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,441
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If you are not having a spa the full speeed flow matter less since there is no need to have a high flow rate through a pool.
Last edited:
Correct no spa. So the SWG will determine the needed flow rate, correct? If so, will a larger salt cell mean I can have a slower flow rate? I believe that would mean less energy usage too.