Thinking about going Salt - have a few questions

[bbillingsley1985]

Thanks TexEdmond,

That's a good idea.

On the swg, I just don't think I'm brave enough to pull the trigger this year since I have all of the chemicals needed to last 1 more year. I'm 50/50 torn between a simple circupool one or getting the hayward t-15 one to work with my automation. Thinking I may look after the season in august september. There any chance they may heavily discount / clearance some then? That'll give me time to think and make sure I get the right one. I'm intrigued by the core55 just for the ultra simplicity but also I know I can install the edge / RJ's pretty easily as well.

On a completely separate note, I did have a copper test done (previous post said that's the only one you should take to the pool store) and it as well as all minerals turned up zero, so I was happy to hear that. I used poolrx for one season and when our bathing suites/daughter's blonde streaks turned slight green at times, I knew I was never using anything with copper again. To be ultra safe, I drained half the pool last year at closing and then refilled so hopefully I'm good there. Can anything else cause green hair other than copper?

Only other slightly concerning thing is pool store says cya is 56....my own test was 40 but it was a strip....not the taylor ones you recommend. I need to buy my own test kit and check it myself but if it is around 60, that does make me a little nervous about it getting too high while I use my 40 lb container of 3" tablets up that I bought last year. It was funny listening to the pool guy try to sell me on all the things I needed....phosphates was too high, etc. He did say my alkalinity showed up as an 8? My cheap liquid test kit showed 80 the other day.....but again not the recommended one and calcium hardness was 110. Need to research what all of that means but ph of 7.3 and chlorine was all good, tds was 400 whatever that means. The things he tried to sell me was my optimizer was 0 and said it should be 30-35. Had never heard of that but he said it has to do with enchaning water clarity and softening water. My water is crystal clear. I'm gonna buy probably the tfs test kit and make sure alkalinity is good but mainly that and the somewhat elevated cya makes me a little nervous.

 

[MITBeta]

Don't fret over the CYA level until you get your own kit. However, you are unlikely going to be able to use all those tabs in 1 season. They are a sunk cost. You can keep them around for vacations, but you're going to want to find a better way to chlorinate sooner rather than later. You might also be able to unload them for good money on Facebook marketplace or similar.

 

[TexEdmond]

^^^^^This, this, this. ^^^^ If you're even at all concerned about your CYA being high, stop using tabs immediately and switch over to liquid chlorine. They ought to have it in a 4gal pack at your local Home Depot.

10lbs of trichlor is the equivalent of adding something like 50ppm of CYA in a medium sized pool.

Don't do what I did: I insanely kept going back to the pool store for more dichlor and trichlor and ended up with CYA at 160.

How much CYA do trichlor tablets add?

Hi all, After topping off the pool (we had closed it for the winter) and some spring rains, my CYA level has dropped to 10 ppm or less. I have a leftover bucket of HTH trichlor tabs from the previous owner. Does anyone have an approximation of how much CYA is added over time by the tabs...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[bbillingsley1985]

Rather than start a new thread, I figure I'll just continue on in this thread. So I've noticed my cya is up to about 40-50 now (can maybe still barely see it prior to it hitting 50). Quick question....I sit the cya tube on my magnetic stirer and turn that light on and use that in determining when I can no longer see the black dot. Is that correct to do or should I not set that over light? I noticed when I pulled it off that light, I couldn't make it out anymore at between 40-50....but could barely see it when I held it over the light. Regardless, it appears my cya has gone from about 30 to 50 in approximately 2 months of using the 3" tablets. At that rate it would probably be 70 by the end of the summer, then as I drain it and remove excess water from rain over the winter, it will probably dilute back down. That's my one year sample size I can go off of. So the CYA probably isn't a huge deal for me compared to people in hotter climates, but the time waste I'm having is a big deal.

I'm having a heck of a time this year with the 3" chlorine tablets compared to last year. Last year when I used goodrx, it was 3 tablets per week put in on every Sunday....by the next Sunday the tabs were dissolved and my chlorine always was in good shape. This year, I put 4 tablets in on Sunday, notice on say a Thursday that my chlorine is approaching 0, add some liquid chlorine, look at the chlorinator and the 4 tablets aren't even halfway dissolved. Finally said to heck with the chlorinator and am just throwing them in a floater to see if that works better. I made a separate post months ago about the chlorinator.....maybe its still messed up. I will notice when I set my rpm's to 1750, which its at maybe 20 hours out of the 24 (2750 rpm's for 4-5 hours per day)..... that zero water is coming out into the chlorinator.....that's probably the issue but don't understand why 1750 was going in to the chlorinator last year but not this year. I found that I'd have to increase the speed to about 2100 rpm's to get water to go into it and I don't want to waste the energy cost on that.

So the cya isn't rising as much as I thought it'd be rising, but it is definitely rising and will probably be up there by the end of the summer. So I'm now revisiting going salt. I noticed on the discount salt pools website that they have the same upgrade sales they usually have but they knocked $6 off for the 4th of July and called it a $4 upgrade. No big deal there but what I did notice is that now the universal circupools are included in that. I could be wrong, but I want to say they universals did not offer the $10 upgrade a month or two back....it was just the edge's, RJ's and core's. If I was going to go salt generator, I had just about settled on the edge40 mainly for cost. The edge40 would be $1200. However, now that the universal is included in the discounts, I could get a universal40 for $1050....that's another $150 cheaper. Is it worth it to spend $150 more for the edge40? I guess warranty and clear cell are the main differences, though I noticed the universal puts out more....2.0 compared to 1.70. My pool is right at 22k gallons. Appears they both get excellent reviews. As for the RJ's and core55, I'd love the core55 but just can't spend the $1700+ for the RJ or core. I don't want to go any lower than 40 gallons so that takes the core35 out.

So to my questions:

1. edge40 for $1200 or universal40 for $1050. Which should I go with?
2. Wiring. I have a OmniHub setup (I'll attach a pic) and what I would like to do is wire the salt generator to where it would know to turn off if for whatever reason the pump turns off/power outage/etc. Would I be able to wire this into my OmniHub box to where it will work that way. I did read through the circupool owner's manual but its confusing to me. Is there a certain spot on the OmniHub where it will work that way. Basically I want to make 100% certain that if say I open my omni app and turn my pump off, I'll know with 100% certainty that the salt generator will also shut off. I've read not to rely on the salt flow sensor so is there a way to where I can wire it into the Omnihub and have it work in conjunction with that to shut it off if pump is off?
3. I attached a pic with a tape measure showing my clearance. Should I just take the chlorinator out completely or use that approximately 20-21" of space before the chlorinator to set the salt generator up? Is 20" enough or should I look into a vertical install? I like the previous idea of leaving the chlorinator if I have the space, but its not really a huge deal because it may not even be working right anyway.
4. Looking at the overview of my setup, is there anything that doesn't look good? This is how the pool company installed it and I'm on my 2nd season. Notably, my pool heater has a Water flow checker to where the heater will not kick on until the water flow is a certain level. Last year, this was around 2000 RPM's as far as what my pump was saying before the heater would kick on (would give a P5 error when it was sensing that the water flow wasn't enough). I noticed this year that its closer to like 2500 RPM's before it will kick on. Is that normal? Also since 1750 rpm's wasn't putting enough water into the top of my chlorinator this year, but it was last year, is that somehow related? I have a cartridge filter and I'm religious about keeping that clean so I don't believe its that.

 

[TexEdmond]

Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town a bunch for work.

Quick question....I sit the cya tube on my magnetic stirer and turn that light on and use that in determining when I can no longer see the black dot. Is that correct to do or should I not set that over light?

Negative. CYA test isn't done on the stirrer, and some of us don't even have a tube that'll take the magic stirring tablet thingy. Combine equal parts pool water and CYA reagent, give it a good shake, let it sit for the 30 seconds or whatever it says on the instructions. With your back to the sun, hold the tube at waist level and glance down the tube. If you can see the dot, fill the tube to the next line, hold at your waist and glance again. Keep doing this until the dot disappears, then round the number UP to the next even multiple of 10 (which is the LOWER fluid level in the tube.) For example, if you can see the dot at the 50 level, but it disappears when you fill up to the 40 level, count it 50 and move on. It's a difficult and subjective test, so you can pour the solution back into the mixing bottle and try it several times for practice.

Regardless, it appears my cya has gone from about 30 to 50 in approximately 2 months of using the 3" tablets.

I'd recommend doing another test to make sure using the above test procedure. Your CYA might be higher than that already. But in general, trichlor adds a catastrophic amount of CYA for every PPM of chlorine it dissolves. This is why pool store pools go green and TFP pools stay clear. We use SWGs and liquid chlorine and our chems stay in balance and manageable.

To your other questions, I'd have to defer to someone else with a little more experience with different kinds of SWGs. I went with Pentair because that's what all the rest of my equipment is, and I was able to reuse some wiring from the (worthless) ozonator they originally installed. So even though I might not be able to have a warranty, it was a no-brainer on the selection for me; there was literally only one model that'd work once I decided I wanted to control it thru the existing app I already had.

In general, get the highest capacity unit with the best warranty you can find. Having this thing installed is so convenient I wouldn't worry about $150 one way or the other. My 60k Pentair unit usually runs around 30% for my ~25k pool and keeps my FC between 7 and 8.5PPM, and I believe it's got a daily output of 2.0 as well.

Vertical install would be super easy and you can keep the chlorinator for the winter months when the pool gets cold. You might consider putting the check valve in between the SWG and the chlorinator to give your SWG a little protection if you have tabs going and don't remove the SWG.

I'm not sure about your chlorinator, sounds like you might have some kind of blockage in that feed tube and valve mechanism. Probably a good idea to start another thread on that and do some troubleshooting.

 

[bbillingsley1985]

Really appreciate the response Tex. I'll redo the cya test. It could be pushing 60 for sure by now. I've pretty well decided I need to go swg. Without the poolrx it's much tougher to keep the pool chlorine in range. No green hair or copper but now it feels like I gotta use double the tablets which I know will reak havoc on cya and I'm probably already flirting with disaster on getting algae. Pool is still perfectly clear but FC does approach 0 when the clorinator acts up so I'm checking daily anyway and have burned through a lot of liquid chlorine to get it back up.

Just so torn between just getting the Hayward aqua rite for automation purposes or one of the circupools. Then there was an inyo one for around $1000 lol but is that Crud. So many decisions. At regular price I'll spend $2k for daughter board and Hayward aqua rite. For that I could get the rj60+ for around $1700. Wish the Hayward was more in the $1200-1500. I'll figure it out eventually.

 

[bbillingsley1985]

Really appreciate the response Tex. I'll redo the cya test. It could be pushing 60 for sure by now. I've pretty well decided I need to go swg. Without the poolrx it's much tougher to keep the pool chlorine in range. No green hair or copper but now it feels like I gotta use double the tablets which I know will reak havoc on cya and I'm probably already flirting with disaster on getting algae. Pool is still perfectly clear but FC does approach 0 when the clorinator acts up so I'm checking daily anyway and have burned through a lot of liquid chlorine to get it back up.

Just so torn between just getting the Hayward aqua rite for automation purposes or one of the circupools. Then there was an inyo one for around $1000 lol but is that Crud. So many decisions. At regular price I'll spend $2k for daughter board and Hayward aqua rite. For that I could get the rj60+ for around $1700. Wish the Hayward was more in the $1200-1500. I'll figure it out eventually.

Update on this. So I bought the aquarite w3aqr15 and the daughter board. I've got the manuals for everything and think I have a good handle on how to install daughter board along with the plumbing etc. The only thing I can't wrap my head around and can't find any solid info on is.....how do I wire the aquarite for power? I don't have any timers because omni hub controls everything. Do I just hook it to a separate breaker or is there a way to wire it to the Omni hub? When I hook a line through the daughter board is that enough to shut off the swg in the event that the pump shuts off/loses power (thus wiring to a separate breaker is fine) or does the electrical power part need to be somehow installed into the pump or Omni hub? That's the one thing I'm confused about and manuals aren't clear on this.....how do I wire it with Omni hub.

Anyone have any info on that? Thanks a lot.

 

[randytsuch]

The aquarite has a flow sensor, so if the pump stops, the flow sensor will open and the aquarite will stop generating chlorine. So it can't generate with the pump off.

So they probably don't say much about power since you can connect to any source of always on 230 or 115 VAC (just change jumpers for 115VAC)

I expect the omni hub will control on time for the SWG, otherwise no point in the interface board, but I don't have one.

 

[mknauss]

The aquarite has a flow sensor, so if the pump stops, the flow sensor will open and the aquarite will stop generating chlorine. So it can't generate with the pump off.

Do not rely on the flow switch as the primary safety device. Removing power from the SWCG should always be done when the pump is off.

 

[Hootz]

You might consider doing a vertical install and keeping the tab feeder installed. Some folks use tabs in combination with SWG for vacation, etc. It's also an easy way to add some CYA slowly. That's what I did with ours, and I like having the option to use the tab feeder even though it stays empty 99% of the time now.

I agree on keeping the tablet feeder. I removed my tab feeder when I installed my swg. I could still use a tab feeder to supplement chlorine and also to keep cya levels up....the price of stabilizer has gone up and is getting harder to find.

 

[bbillingsley1985]

I agree on keeping the tablet feeder. I removed my tab feeder when I installed my swg. I could still use a tab feeder to supplement chlorine and also to keep cya levels up....the price of stabilizer has gone up and is getting harder to find.

I like the suggestions on the tablet feeder. I think I may have just enough space to fit everything, assuming the Internet is true the flow switch is about 4" and swg cell is about 12.5. I've attached a pic. Anyone see any issues with this? So this is the last plumbing line that goes to the returns just after the heater and check valve. Only small issue might be in the small chance I use pucks will the fact that I don't have a check valve between chlorinator and swg hurt the swg?

As for the electrical wiring of it, I'm just gonna have to wing it and trial and error it. My pump does always run 24/7 at 1750 rpm and then I think 5-6 hours at 2500 rpms. My plan through automation was to run swg during that 5-6 hours at faster speed and adjust % as needed but unless 1750 is too low to run swg I should be able to run it whenever. I know I can wire to a new breaker but really wish I could figure out how to wire it so that if the pump shut off for any reason, it would also shut off. Using the daughter board and hooking it to the Omni hub may solve that.... Meaning omni hub will automatically kill power to it if it/pump loses power....That's what I'll have to trial and error. Just the electrical wiring to supply power to the swg is what I don't really know.

As for plumbing, do you think my idea will work? I've attached a pic. If not it's either rip the tab feeder out where I gain another foot or so, or figure out a vertical install.

 

[HermanTX]

As for the electrical wiring of it, I'm just gonna have to wing it and trial and error it. My pump does always run 24/7 at 1750 rpm and then I think 5-6 hours at 2500 rpms. My plan through automation was to run swg during that 5-6 hours at faster speed and adjust % as needed but unless 1750 is too low to run swg I should be able to run it whenever. I know I can wire to a new breaker but really wish I could figure out how to wire it so that if the pump shut off for any reason, it would also shut off. Using the daughter board and hooking it to the Omni hub may solve that.... Meaning omni hub will automatically kill power to it if it/pump loses power....That's what I'll have to trial and error. Just the electrical wiring to supply power to the swg is what I don't really know.

You may want to open up your automation box where the pump connects to the relay and take a picture. I am not familiar with your specific system, but most are wired in similar fashion. Your pump has to have power via a circuit breaker or a relay in the automation. There should be mains power coming into Line 1 and Line 2. Your VS pump may be connected to those same connections or to Load 1 and Load 2. You want the SWCG to get connected to Load 1 and Load 2. This way, when the automaton tells pump to turn on then that relay will get power and the SWCG will have power. When it tells pump to turn off then power is cut that relay and to SWCG. If for some reason the automation has the pump running but the pump malfunctions then quits, then the secondary safety - the flow switch will open and shut power to the SWCG. Hope this makes sense.

You do not want to "wing it". The pump and SWCG are very expensive, and you do not want to hook them up incorrectly.

 

[HermanTX]

As for plumbing, do you think my idea will work? I've attached a pic. If not it's either rip the tab feeder out where I gain another foot or so, or figure out a vertical install.

FWIW - remove the tab feeder. They only cause problems over time. I have a floater which works great. Also, it provides the confidence that chlorine pucks are always in the water - the pump does not need to be running. Chlorinators are known to have issues with that black tube, that little dial is not very accurate for 1-5 setting, the oring on the cap corrodes all the time, and the check valve (in the feeder tee-not the one before the chlorinator) has known to fail. Life is so much better without a tab feeder.

You have such an easy installation - cut 2 pipes and insert your SWCG. Sell your chlorinator for $40 and buy some BBQ!!!

 

[randytsuch]

I documented my aquarite install here

For the Hayward cell measurement, you need to include the unions on the ends. I made the same mistake when planning my install.
With the unions, I measured 15 3/4 inches from end to end (I think that was what I was measuring). The flow switch was 3 3/4".

So looks pretty tight for your space. When you get it, lay it out and see how if it fits. Otherwise you can do a vertical install.

 

[tstex]

I documented my aquarite install here

For the Hayward cell measurement, you need to include the unions on the ends. I made the same mistake when planning my install.
With the unions, I measured 15 3/4 inches from end to end (I think that was what I was measuring). The flow switch was 3 3/4".

So looks pretty tight for your space. When you get it, lay it out and see how if it fits. Otherwise you can do a vertical install.

Randy,

Never saw anymore pic's after the flow switch install and one coupling...do you have anymore? thanks for posting

 

[bbillingsley1985]

Randy,

Never saw anymore pic's after the flow switch install and one coupling...do you have anymore? thanks for posting

Randy, appreciate that link. That will be very helpful. I noticed you wired it to a smart switch. I could easily do that, but for me, wouldn't I still have that worry that if the pump does turn off for some reason and the flow switch fails I could still have it on with no pump?

I was looking through my pics I took a while back and I have the bottom part of my control board cut off in the picture(bottom of pic), but it looks like my vsp is wired that way. Can I tap the SWG into that? Is it ok to add a swg and sort of merge it with the existing wires? It goes to a double breaker so I assume 240v. I've attached that pic plus manual from omni hub. I'm not home or I'd take a better picture.

 

[BMerrill]

Looks so.

 

[bbillingsley1985]

I think I'm maybe figuring this out. So as I look at the aquarite manual, for 230v which I think is what my pump/ Omni hub is set to, I need 3 wires.....black green and red. That works out because in my wiring stuff on the bottom of that picture on my previous post of the Omni hub, there the same black green red that's been wired to the vsp. So I think I just buy something like a 12 gauge wire, and hook it to the aquarite as they show (easy) and then run the other end and merge it with the existing black, green, red with my Omni hub wiring at the bottom of my pic. Does that sound right and make sense? Will that overload/mess anything up.

What I'm confused about is all the 12 gauge wire I see at Lowe's has a white cord to go along with those other 3 colors. I don't see anywhere that the white cord would go with what I see. Do I just simply not plug in the white cord on any side or do I need to get different wire?

 

[randytsuch]

First let me say this is strictly my opinion, and anything you do is at your own risk.

I figured that the flow sensor is a fail safe, in case something goes wrong with my primary control system. So its possible that both the flow sensor fail safe and the primary control system both fail, and the SWG is on with the pump off. I decided the odds of that are too small to worry about.

My primary control system is using my smart home system which is based on software called Home Assistant running on a pi. I set timers in Home Assistant that control pump run time through the 4 wire interface (connected to relays) and the SWG via a smart switch. I had used the smart switch to power a stenner chlorine pump so I had confidence in this setup.

My timers start the SWG 10 mins after pump on, and stop SWG 10 mins before pump off.

I also get a text message when pump and SWG start and stop, so 4 texts a day. I might disable texts at some point, but its reassuring to get them for now.
I found that I can run my VSP at 1200 rpm (68 watts electricity) and this is enough to close the flow sensor. Haven't figured out how low I can go, just running at 1200 rpm because that is what I was using before.

I'll add a picture of the final installation if I remember to take one this evening. I rotated the cell and need a picture with that setup.

 

[HermanTX]

My timers start the SWG 10 mins after pump on, and stop SWG 10 mins before pump off.

I also get a text message when pump and SWG start and stop, so 4 texts a day. I might disable texts at some point, but its reassuring to get them for now.

The main scenario that you need to monitor is that the automation tells pump "turn on" and you get that text but the actual pump fails (motor burns, capacitor fails, etc). Then the automation (and you) thinks the pump is running but it is not. The only safety control you then have is the flow switch. Its failsafe open (meaning in its normal position there is no power - meaning you must have flow to close it to turn on power to it) so it shouldn't turn the SWCG on. The failures of the flow switch that have been mainly reported on the forum is that the flow switch does not close (with flow) thereby the SWCG never turns on (even with flow).