SWG and other questions

[swimspaguyy11]

I am on the Palisades and don't think any of the pool services I know go that far out on Rt 80.

Nice! Beautiful area, I have some friends who live over there. Taxes are insane but then again they are everywhere in Northern NJ.

I am looking at the RJ-60+ you recommended, it's on sale on that website and it looks pretty easy to install, easier than I expected. They even sell a vertical mount kit, I might be able to plumb it right where the chlorinator is with minimal plumbing work. If I run into trouble I can ask the regular plumber working at my house currently to help me. The only downside would be if I go with an automation system next year and it requires me replacing it.......

 

[ajw22]

The only downside would be if I go with an automation system next year and it requires me replacing it.......

There will be no reason to replace the RJ60 when you get automation. You just will not be able to adjust the SWG from the automation control panel or app. When the RJ60 gets used up you can then decide if you want to just replace the cell or the entire system.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

There will be no reason to replace the RJ60 when you get automation. You just will not be able to adjust the SWG from the automation control panel or app. When the RJ60 gets used up you can then decide if you want to just replace the cell or the entire system.

Great, I think I am going to order it. My pool is no where near 60k gallons but I want to say one of the reading assignments you gave me said that you should oversize your SWG, correct? if my pool is 30k gallons for example, no issue? The 45k system is $10 less due to the promo, so if oversizing is not an issue it seems like a no brainer.

I dont know anything about my pool except it says its 18ftx37ft on the survey, so I am going to assume that is correct. it has a shallow end and a deep end that appears to be 8ft. I am going to assume its probably 30k gallons. I will get better measurements soon.

 

[ajw22]

You can't go wrong with the RJ60+ whatever the gallons in your pool is.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

You can't go wrong with the RJ60+ whatever the gallons in your pool is.

Yeah I just saw it again "more is always better".

Well Allen, you havent steered me wrong yet so I think I am going to pull the trigger on this thing.

Regarding salt in general, regarding what the pool guy said.... Is there any truth to the part that it can eat the upper walls of the liner pool? Or any of the Crud he said? I did read somewhere that you need to wash the salt off stuff regularly, I can deal with that.

Also, can you tell there is salt in the pool? I dont think I have ever been in a salt pool before. Like how salty is it? Can you feel salt left behind on your skin after the water dries or anything I should be aware of at all before making this switch?

Thanks again

 

[ajw22]

Regarding salt in general, regarding what the pool guy said.... Is there any truth to the part that it can eat the upper walls of the liner pool? Or any of the Crud he said? I did read somewhere that you need to wash the salt off stuff regularly, I can deal with that.

Walls of pools have been rusting regularly with or without SWGs.

Get the K-1766 Taylor Salt Test You will need it anyway and test your existing pool water before adding any salt. I will bet you have 1,000 - 2,000 ppm of salt in the water already.

The dirty little secret is that all forms of chlorine - Trichor, liquid chlorine, etc, - are adding salt in the water. Everyone has a salt pool to some level and many are 1/3 to 1/2 the salt level a SWG needs.

The RJ60 will want around 3,000 ppm of salt. The oceans have around 30,000 ppm of salt. So your pool will have about 10% of the salinity of the ocean.

Also, can you tell there is salt in the pool? I dont think I have ever been in a salt pool before. Like how salty is it?

I can't. Some people say they can taste it. But then some SWGs require salt levels of 4,000 - 6,000 ppm. And many people like adding salts to their bath water for the feel of it.

Can you feel salt left behind on your skin after the water dries or anything I should be aware of at all before making this switch?

My pool feels like bath water. No salt or chlorine feeling or smell. My wife comments on how much better our pool water feels then most other pools she is in.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Awesome, 10% of the ocean I can deal with. I guess one benefit of going with the RJ60 and oversizing is I need less salt since its more powerful.

I should already have the salt test, I ordered the TF-100 with the salt test added since I was thinking of adding a SWG to my spa. There were no instructions included for the salt test but I should have whatever I need to do it (hopefully). I know I have some extra bottles that I dont know what they do, so I assume they are for the salt tests.

I just ordered, I figure I really cant waste time because the pool is going to need chlorine soon and I really dont want to add more CYA with trichlor. Hopefully installation goes well! I ordered the vertical install kit just incase, I also ordered the cleaning stand it recommended at checkout.

 

[ajw22]

I guess one benefit of going with the RJ60 and oversizing is I need less salt since its more powerful.

It doesn't work that way. All the RJ SWGs require the same salt level. What varies is the size and number of plates in the SWG.

SWG How It Works - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

There were no instructions included for the salt test but I should have whatever I need to do it (hopefully). I know I have some extra bottles that I dont know what they do, so I assume they are for the salt tests.

Taylor K-1766 Salt Test Kit instructions


Salt Water Test Instructions PROCEDURE: CAREFULLY READ AND FOLLOW PRECAUTIONS ON REAGENT LABELS. KEEP REAGENTS AWAY FROM CHILDREN.
For 1 drop = 200 ppm Sodium Chloride.
1. Rinse and fill the plain graduated cylinder to 10 mL mark with water to be tested.
2. Add 1 drop R-0630 Chromate Indicator. Swirl to mix. Sample should turn yellow.
3. Add R-0718 Silver Nitrate Reagent dropwise, swirling and counting after each drop, until color changes from yellow to a milky salmon (brick) red. Always hold bottle in vertical position. NOTE: Do not add enough R-0718 Silver Nitrate Reagent to give a brown color. First change from yellow to a milky salmon (brick) red is the endpoint.
4. Multiply drops of R-0718 Silver Nitrate Reagent by 200. Record as parts per million (ppm) salt as sodium chloride (salt water).

,I also ordered the cleaning stand it recommended at checkout.

Every time you clean the cell with acid you remove some of the rare earths and reduce the life of the cell. First try cleaning the cell through other means.

If you keep your TA and CSI low you should never have to clean the cell. I never have to clean mine.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Ok thank you. I will test my pool tomorrow for it's current salt level.

I am reading the manual for the SWG I ordered and do I understand this correctly? If my pool is 25k gallons and has 1000ppm salt currently, I need to add 500 hundred POUNDS of salt? Holy Crud, I thought I would be adding one or two of those water softener salt bags! OFC, doing the math it makes sense, just didnt expect to need that much, my back is going to hate me and with buying all that salt, am I saving any money over using chlorine? EDIT: 40lb bag of salt is only $6.47, so not bad price wise, especially since I dont need to keep adding forever like chlorine.

I recall reading an article about salt pools and maintaining them, etc on this forum but now I cant find it, it's not in the basics articles page. If anyone can link it, that would be great, otherwise I am sure I can find it again. Perhaps it wasnt on this site though.

Thanks

 

[ajw22]

Ok thank you. I will test my pool tomorrow for it's current salt level.

I am reading the manual for the SWG I ordered and do I understand this correctly? If my pool is 25k gallons and has 1000ppm salt currently, I need to add 500 hundred POUNDS of salt? Holy Crud, I thought I would be adding one or two of those water softener salt bags! OFC, doing the math it makes sense, just didnt expect to need that much, my back is going to hate me and with buying all that salt, am I saving any money over using chlorine? EDIT: 40lb bag of salt is only $6.47, so not bad price wise, especially since I dont need to keep adding forever like chlorine.

Every 40lb bag of salt adds 240 ppm to a 20,000 gallon pool. You add salt once a season to top off your pool. And then I usually need to add a bag or two during the season to replace salt lost with backwash water.

Salt - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Do NOT use Clorox Pool Salt. EVER!

I recall reading an article about salt pools and maintaining them, etc on this forum but now I cant find it, it's not in the basics articles page. If anyone can link it, that would be great, otherwise I am sure I can find it again. Perhaps it wasnt on this site though.

Water Balance for SWGs

Saltwater pools are becoming more and more popular. We discuss How salt generators work and water balance tips for SWGs to run them.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[AK-]

Hello almost neighbor. 500lb of salt is 12 1/2 bags. You can get Morton pool salt at Home Depot for less than 7/bag. Don’t add all at once (split 70/30 the amount and test between).

The plumbing is just matter of measurements, basic skill with a saw and ability to apply glue (either primer plus cement or combined primer/cement).

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Hello almost neighbor. 500lb of salt is 12 1/2 bags. You can get Morton pool salt at Home Depot for less than 7/bag. Don’t add all at once (split 70/30 the amount and test between).

The plumbing is just matter of measurements, basic skill with a saw and ability to apply glue (either primer plus cement or combined primer/cement).

I was just by Randolph yesterday at Standard Tile on Rt10 and Davy's right off rt 80. Love that area, also considered Randolph in addition to Rockaway when I moved but I sometimes have to go to Paterson for my work and Rockaway is so much easier to just jump on Rt 80 and be there in 20 min.

Once I realized how simple the plumbing was I was less concerned, I should be able to handle that simple amount of PVC plumbing. I told my wife if I get stuck I have a guy from TFP in Randolph who will come and bail me out

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Some thoughts/questions....

1) Would it be a good idea to start adding salt now? (After I get a baseline measurement) So that I can add in portions and test after? I am reading it can take 24-48hr for it to fully dissolve.

2) How will I test the FC levels going forward? If I am running 8FC I cant use the yellow comparison quick daily test at all right? (unless there is a dilution method?) I have to do the DPD test every time I check I assume? Not a huge deal, that is how I test my bromine in my spa anyways.

3) Since my pool was FC of 20 when I did my tests, my PH value is worthless? It was around 7.4, but if that is way higher than it really is, then it might be very low? (which I am reading would be expected with high trichlor usage)

4) What is the upper limit of CYA that is good for salt? I am reading 70-80 is ideal but the chart Allen posted said 60 and up. If my CYA is 120ppm, is that still considered too high for salt? Just curious here.

Thanks.

 

[ajw22]

1) Would it be a good idea to start adding salt now? (After I get a baseline measurement) So that I can add in portions and test after? I am reading it can take 24-48hr for it to fully dissolve.

Sure. No problem starting to add the salt. I dumped in the 10 bags it needed this season in one shot and brushed it around the floor until it dissolved. In 24 hours my SWG was happy.

2) How will I test the FC levels going forward? If I am running 8FC I cant use the yellow comparison quick daily test at all right? (unless there is a dilution method?) I have to do the DPD test every time I check I assume? Not a huge deal, that is how I test my bromine in my spa anyways.

Yes, you need to test with the FAS/DPD FC test.

The OTO yellow block test is unrealiable for anything other then a binary check of is it clear and no chlorine, yellow and okay chlorine, or golden and chlorine probably too high. Assigning any numerical values to the colors is a total guess.

3) Since my pool was FC of 20 when I did my tests, my PH value is worthless? It was around 7.4, but if that is way higher than it really is, then it might be very low? (which I am reading would be expected with high trichlor usage)

Correct. But if your TA is 60 or above then just let your pH rise naturally or aerate to raise the pH.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

So I repeated some tests and I am trying to plan out my install so I took some better pictures of my equipment.

I redid the CYA tests, I am fairly certain its between 90 and 140ppm. Am I supposed to consider the measure point when the black dot is basically gome but still barely visible if you move it around and get the right angle? Or is it when its 100% gone and you cant see any trace of it? If the latter its probably 90ppm. If the former its 120-140ppm.

I did the salt test, I got a light salmon pink at 3 drops and brick red at 4 drops so I am going to assume its like 700ppm salt currently so a little less than expected. (Did i go dark enough on the color?)

The TA is 60ppm but for some reason it doesnt go from green to red like it does in my spa. It goes from green to gold, is this due to the high chlorine levels? I tried adding like 10 more drops and it still never changed to red, just stayed gold. (picture attached)

As far as installing my SWG, I think I am going to need to use the vertical installation kit (which I've since realized is just some pvc parts and nothing proprietary). I dont have room to install the cell and the flow meter horizontally in series and there is no place where I have 12 inches after a bend to install the flow sensor otherwise. I am thinking my best bet is to take out the chlorinator and install the vertical kit there. I will need to add some piping because the vertical kit uses 6.5inches of space and my chlorinator is more than that.

I am open to any suggestions on better ways to plumb this in.

I havent double checked yet but I am fairly certain I will need to adjust the SWG to run off 120v because I am fairly certain my pump is 120v because its controlled by a single pole breaker, so unless I am missing something, I am on 120v which I have read is less common?

I will need to mount the SWG module to one of those wood 4x4 posts, unfortunately no way to keep it out of direct sun light as it recommends though.


Pictures attached.

 

[mknauss]

Am I supposed to consider the measure point when the black dot is basically gome but still barely visible if you move it around and get the right angle?

Correct. The dot is gone but you might see a slight hint of the color. I use the glance method. Glance down the tube, if the dot cannot be seen, test is complete.

 

[ajw22]

So I repeated some tests and I am trying to plan out my install so I took some better pictures of my equipment.

I redid the CYA tests, I am fairly certain its between 90 and 140ppm. Am I supposed to consider the measure point when the black dot is basically gome but still barely visible if you move it around and get the right angle? Or is it when its 100% gone and you cant see any trace of it? If the latter its probably 90ppm. If the former its 120-140ppm.

What Marty said. Glance into the tube and you eitehr see the dot or you don't. Do not stare into the tube or move it around to see if you see the dot.

CYA Testing - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

I did the salt test, I got a light salmon pink at 3 drops and brick red at 4 drops so I am going to assume its like 700ppm salt currently so a little less than expected. (Did i go dark enough on the color?)

The test is over when you add a drop and the color does not change. And you don't count that no change drop.

So your salt is 800 ppm.

Don;t go interpolating test results. Use the number of drops it takes.

The TA is 60ppm but for some reason it doesnt go from green to red like it does in my spa. It goes from green to gold, is this due to the high chlorine levels? I tried adding like 10 more drops and it still never changed to red, just stayed gold. (picture attached)

I wouldn't worry about it. On all the tests it is when the color changes that matters. Not so much what the final color is. You have a color change and that is the test endpoint.

As far as installing my SWG, I think I am going to need to use the vertical installation kit (which I've since realized is just some pvc parts and nothing proprietary). I dont have room to install the cell and the flow meter horizontally in series and there is no place where I have 12 inches after a bend to install the flow sensor otherwise. I am thinking my best bet is to take out the chlorinator and install the vertical kit there. I will need to add some piping because the vertical kit uses 6.5inches of space and my chlorinator is more than that.

Vertical will work fine.

I havent double checked yet but I am fairly certain I will need to adjust the SWG to run off 120v because I am fairly certain my pump is 120v because its controlled by a single pole breaker, so unless I am missing something, I am on 120v which I have read is less common?

Post a pic of the motor data plate.

I will need to mount the SWG module to one of those wood 4x4 posts, unfortunately no way to keep it out of direct sun light as it recommends though.

Keeping the control panel out of the direct sun is not as much of an issue in NJ as it is in the Southwest. I would not worry about it.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Thank you both for the clarification, I would say then that my water CYA is probably closer to 140ppm (I had it backwards in my post originally).

I still need to calculate the exact size of my pool, but I believe I am going to need roughly 500lbs of salt to go from 800ppm to 3500ppm. I will add it slowly to avoid overshooting though, especially since I dont know my exact gallons yet.

Some more questions......

Regarding calculating the gallons of my pool, is there a better way to get as exact as possible (other than measuring a fresh fill) beyond just measuring the pool, and entering the average depth and shape? I am going to try to do a tape measure of the depth, most pools are 8ft in the deep end, and 4ft in the shallow end, correct? My pool I noticed has a larger than normal shallow end, and then the slope is going to be different possibly and not everyone has the same corner size cut off. It's just that if I am doing pool math I would really like to have as an exact gallons as possible.

General question regarding Salt pools: I watched some videos about salt water pools and one of the videos claimed that salt pools caused the PH to always be too high, but there was lot of disagreement in the comments. the same video talked about salt water pools causing scale, which from my teachings here, is caused not by the salt but by the too high PH. If I do the TFP way of maintaining the pool using Pool Math, should I still expect to always be battling high PH? There were many who agreed that this is a battle with SWG pools and others who said if you maintain properly its not a problem.

Heater question: When I was testing out my heater for t he first time, I turned it on, the control panel activated, I set it to "Pool" and 84F and it ran for a bit. Then I came back later and saw it say the temp was 85F, even though the water was still in the 50's, then 90F, then 95F, then 100F and then I turned it off as I realized my pump timer had cut off so there was no water ciculating through the heater. Is this normal? Should the heater continue to have power with the pump not running? Is it normal for the heater (A Rheem propane heater IIRC) to just stay on and I guess it would have turned itself off shortly when it realized no flow. However, it seems like it wouldnt be good for the thing to cycle on, realize the water is getting too hot, overheat and then cycle off, over and over. Makes me feel like something isnt wired right perhaps, I would have expected the heater to loose power when the pump does the same way the SWG is going to be wired. However, perhaps the heater needs to do a shut down procedure or something so it needs to always have power? IIRC the heater has its own switch to turn on/off like the pump.

My FC has already dropped from 20 to 10 (as of 2 days ago). Do I need to be adding chlorine before my SWG is functioning? I dont know how low it will drop if I just continue to leave it. I hope to get the SWG installed this week.

Lastly, I have a lot of stains in the pool, all over the steps and all over the liner. It's kind of ruining the otherwise nice look of the pool, its mostly in the creases running the length of the pool floor, especially the ramp down to the deep end. It looks like it could be Iron but its too cold to get in there and do these tests to determine what it is yet, perhaps you can tell what they are from the pictures: Stains in Your Pool
I tried brushing the stains but it doesnt help. I might be able to hold a trichlor puck to one of the stains on the steps because its a little higher up. I am betting its iron though since I have well water and I am sure the previous owner topped off with the hose and not deliveries.

Thanks as always.

 

[proavia]

If you CYA is really 140, the first order of business is to lower the CYA to 70. Only draining/refilling - half you pool volume - will lower the CYA to 70. After the refill, balance the water and retest the salt level.

 

[ajw22]

Regarding calculating the gallons of my pool, is there a better way to get as exact as possible (other than measuring a fresh fill) beyond just measuring the pool, and entering the average depth and shape? I am going to try to do a tape measure of the depth, most pools are 8ft in the deep end, and 4ft in the shallow end, correct? My pool I noticed has a larger than normal shallow end, and then the slope is going to be different possibly and not everyone has the same corner size cut off. It's just that if I am doing pool math I would really like to have as an exact gallons as possible.

There is a Chemical Way of Calculating Pool Volume using an alkalinity test kit, sodium bicarbonate or acid, and the formula.

Or you dial in your pool volume as you use PoolMath and see the effects of chemicals you add compared to what PoolMath predicts. If PM predictions are under then lower your pool volume a bit. If over then raise your pool volume. When PM is pretty accurate then your Pool volume is pretty accurate.

General question regarding Salt pools: I watched some videos about salt water pools and one of the videos claimed that salt pools caused the PH to always be too high, but there was lot of disagreement in the comments. the same video talked about salt water pools causing scale, which from my teachings here, is caused not by the salt but by the too high PH. If I do the TFP way of maintaining the pool using Pool Math, should I still expect to always be battling high PH? There were many who agreed that this is a battle with SWG pools and others who said if you maintain properly its not a problem.

Some pools pH are stable with an SWG and others are not. There are lots of variables involved. You just have to see how your pool responds.

Heater question: When I was testing out my heater for t he first time, I turned it on, the control panel activated, I set it to "Pool" and 84F and it ran for a bit. Then I came back later and saw it say the temp was 85F, even though the water was still in the 50's, then 90F, then 95F, then 100F and then I turned it off as I realized my pump timer had cut off so there was no water ciculating through the heater. Is this normal?

Heaters use a water pressure switch and not a flow switch. So water flow can stop and there can still be enough water pressure in the heater to keep the pressure switch engaged, One reason that can happen is if the heater is below the water level of the pool.

Should the heater continue to have power with the pump not running?

Sometimes heaters are wired to the same timer that controls the pool.

If you have an automation system the automation knows not to run the heater if the pump is not running.

It all depends on your pump, heater, and automation/timer setup.

Is it normal for the heater (A Rheem propane heater IIRC) to just stay on and I guess it would have turned itself off shortly when it realized no flow. However, it seems like it wouldnt be good for the thing to cycle on, realize the water is getting too hot, overheat and then cycle off, over and over.

The heater safety sensors would have eventually recognized the over temp and shut the heater down.

Whether the heater would cycle back on depends on the Water Pressure Switch.

I would check the WPS and test it with a multimeter and check that no one jumpered it or that it is not stuck closed.

Makes me feel like something isnt wired right perhaps, I would have expected the heater to loose power when the pump does the same way the SWG is going to be wired. However, perhaps the heater needs to do a shut down procedure or something so it needs to always have power?

Most gas heaters specify they should have a 5 to 10 minute coll down period after the heater is turned off and before the pump water flow is stopped.

My FC has already dropped from 20 to 10 (as of 2 days ago). Do I need to be adding chlorine before my SWG is functioning? I dont know how low it will drop if I just continue to leave it. I hope to get the SWG installed this week.

With CYA around 100+ you need to maintain a FC level of around 8 to 10. Letting your FC drop below about 5 can let algae take hold in your water.

Lastly, I have a lot of stains in the pool, all over the steps and all over the liner. It's kind of ruining the otherwise nice look of the pool, its mostly in the creases running the length of the pool floor, especially the ramp down to the deep end. It looks like it could be Iron but its too cold to get in there and do these tests to determine what it is yet, perhaps you can tell what they are from the pictures: Stains in Your Pool
I tried brushing the stains but it doesnt help. I might be able to hold a trichlor puck to one of the stains on the steps because its a little higher up. I am betting its iron though since I have well water and I am sure the previous owner topped off with the hose and not deliveries.

Use a paste of Vitamin C on the stains to see if it is from iron.