SWG and other questions

[swimspaguyy11]

I recently opened my new pool and asked the guy who opened it about a salt water generator and he told me to stay away, he said my pool wasnt built for salt and that the fittings for things like the ladder and hand rail would corrode and possibly even the steel walls (it's a liner pool). I think he also said it could eat the inside of the propane heater. Any truth to this? He said to "stick with the tablets" and when I asked about CYA levels getting too high he said dont worry about it.

If there is any truth to what he said, how does that affect using salt in my swim spa? Could it damage the heater element or the metal fittings on thee spa as well?

I was really disappointed to find out that my full size in ground pool only has 1 skimmer, is that a thing installers actually do? I assume if it is, its a cost saving thing when they installed it? What is odd, there are 2 PVC pipes coming out of the ground going to the pump, not 1, so not sure where the other one pulls from, perhaps some kind of backup incase the skimmer clogs to save the pump? Or, perhaps they buried the line for the 2nd skimmer but capped it off under the concrete (odd)? It really makes no sense to me because its a really bad tree pollen area and i can tell already the single skimmer is not handling things well.

Also I bought the aquabot turbo-t robot from the previous owner and that was a big mistake (the pool guy seemed to think it was criminal to make the new owner buy the robot, he likened it to buying a car and making them pay extra for the tires), it works but its the plastic is very brittle from years of UV exposure and its a total pain to clean out compared to the modern Dolphin my family use with their pool. I got ripped off, live and learn i guess. Another issue it has is it never cleans the shallow end in front of the stairs, the stairs are at the end of the pool so i guess its not smart enough to ever do the area in front of them (or go on the stairs). I guess I will be in the market for a new one sooner than later, I am open to suggestions, i assume i can find some threads comparing them on here as well.

I also need to calculate the gallons of the pool, I found some calculators but I think I will need to get in the pool to do it so I cant yet.

Lastly, the pool guy dumped like 2 gallons of some kind of liquid cholorine/shock into the pool when he opened it and said not to put tabs in the chrolinator for a few days, he said if there are tabs in there when you add the stuff he added it can make the tablets explode or some bs, I assume this is in fact bs? I know my dad doesnt remove tabs from his chrolinator before he shocks his pool and hes still alive.

On a plus, the 12 year liner looks ok for now, so I dont need to get a replacement immediately like i thought I might.
Thanks

 

[ajw22]

I recently opened my new pool and asked the guy who opened it about a salt water generator and he told me to stay away, he said my pool wasnt built for salt and that the fittings for things like the ladder and hand rail would corrode and possibly even the steel walls (it's a liner pool).

Yup, and when it corrodes in a few years without a SWG what will he blame. It is a convenient excuse.

I think he also said it could eat the inside of the propane heater. Any truth to this?

Now he is jumping the shark. A heater heat exchanger is some form of copper alloy that salt does not effect. What damages heat exchangers is low pH water which strips the copper off and deposits it in the pool water.

At this point your Pool Guy has lost all credibility in anything he says. Tune him out or fire him.

He said to "stick with the tablets" and when I asked about CYA levels getting too high he said dont worry about it.

The "Don't worry about it" brush off. No explanation.

You can have less of a CYA problem then people in the South since you drain off some water in your pool for winterization and CYA will degrade over the winter.

You still need to watch your CYA levels.

What was your CYA level at your pool opening before any chemicals were added?

If there is any truth to what he said, how does that affect using salt in my swim spa? Could it damage the heater element or the metal fittings on thee spa as well?

Depends what material the heating element is made of. A titanium heating element is best with salt.

I was really disappointed to find out that my full size in ground pool only has 1 skimmer, is that a thing installers actually do? I assume if it is, its a cost saving thing when they installed it?

I always recommend folks get 2 skimmers. Some people cut corners in any way they can.

What is odd, there are 2 PVC pipes coming out of the ground going to the pump, not 1, so not sure where the other one pulls from, perhaps some kind of backup incase the skimmer clogs to save the pump? Or, perhaps they buried the line for the 2nd skimmer but capped it off under the concrete (odd)? It really makes no sense to me because its a really bad tree pollen area and i can tell already the single skimmer is not handling things well.

Do you have a functioning weir door on the skimmer?

Lastly, the pool guy dumped like 2 gallons of some kind of liquid cholorine/shock into the pool when he opened it and said not to put tabs in the chrolinator for a few days, he said if there are tabs in there when you add the stuff he added it can make the tablets explode or some bs, I assume this is in fact bs?

Your Pool Guy already lost all credibility.

Read Chemical Storage and Safety - Further Reading

I know my dad doesnt remove tabs from his chrolinator before he shocks his pool and hes still alive.

Never mix Trichlor tablets and Cal-hypo tablets in the same devices.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Thanks AJW22, really appreciate your in dept response. Since you are in Northern NJ you likely know the place I used for the open/close, Monarch Pools in Totowa, behind the Applebees on Rt 46. The lady I bought the house from recommended I use them and their deal for open and close with some gift card and I figured I would just stick with them for the first year. I definetly plan on switching for next year. I heard horror storiees about them AFTER i prepaid for the year, so too late for this year unfortunately.

To add to the pool guys credibility, I have no idea what any of the levels are because he didnt test the water when he opened the pool (I figured it was part of the opening so i didnt bring my TF test kit/forgot it) he told me to bring it to the store in a few days and they will tell me what to do.

Oh and to really drive home his credibility, the other guy started the heater before the water was in it, he was yelling at him in another language (after speaking english the rest of the time) but I picked up enough to know why. When I asked he said "its fine, its just a long line, see here its making heat" as he showed me the heat/steam rising from the back of it. Hopefully he didnt cook something, I assume they have over temp sensors that he triggered.

Regarding the Weir Door, that was definitely the problem at first, the water level was over the skimmer entry so I had to drain down to the 3rd screw. At that point it appeared it was working as it was fully open, but to be honest I am not sure if its stuck open or not, I will check.


I've attached pictures of the pool after the first day of cleaning it with the old roboto and the pool equipment (sorry from the winter I forgot to take a new pic).

Is that size canister filter enough for that size pool? A friend came over and said he had the same for similar size pool and it was terrible and he switched to a DE filter system, I know DE is what my dad uses. This filter is like double the size of the my swim spa filter, but my swim spa is only 2000 gallons and I imagine this pool is between 10k and 20k gallons.

Also is this pool equipment in as in as sorry a state as it appears to a novice? None of it gets put away in the winter, that probably doesnt help. I was told the plumbing was replaced a few years back and it appears the near plumbing here was in fact new-ish. The drain union leaks when the drain is open but doesnt when the drain is closed. Other than that it all seems to function properly. I dont know why they didnt replace the unions and valves when they replaced all the pvc piping. It seems a lot of cheaping out went on here all around, using Monarch for the open/close included.

 

[ajw22]

Thanks AJW22, really appreciate your in dept response. Since you are in Northern NJ you likely know the place I used for the open/close, Monarch Pools in Totowa,

Don't know them but there are a lot of pool service companies around.

To add to the pool guys credibility, I have no idea what any of the levels are because he didnt test the water when he opened the pool (I figured it was part of the opening so i didnt bring my TF test kit/forgot it) he told me to bring it to the store in a few days and they will tell me what to do.

Skip taking a water sample in and use your TF-100 and post a complete set of tests.

Is that size canister filter enough for that size pool? A friend came over and said he had the same for similar size pool and it was terrible and he switched to a DE filter system, I know DE is what my dad uses. This filter is like double the size of the my swim spa filter, but my swim spa is only 2000 gallons and I imagine this pool is between 10k and 20k gallons.

A small filter will filter a pool fine it will just require frequent cleaning. Which your Pool Guy likes as he gets paid extra for each cleaning.

A large filter can go a complete season without a cleaning.

Read How to select pool equipment - Further Reading and

Pool Filter Comparison

Your pool's filter is a vital part of your equipment pad. We'll take a look at each type of filter and list the pro's and con's of each.

www.troublefreepool.com

Also is this pool equipment in as in as sorry a state as it appears to a novice? None of it gets put away in the winter, that probably doesnt help. I was told the plumbing was replaced a few years back and it appears the near plumbing here was in fact new-ish. The drain union leaks when the drain is open but doesnt when the drain is closed. Other than that it all seems to function properly. I dont know why they didnt replace the unions and valves when they replaced all the pvc piping. It seems a lot of cheaping out went on here all around, using Monarch for the open/close included.

The equipment looks ok just cheap. Small filter, ball valves instead of diverter valves, no SWG, no automation. It is a basic no frills setup.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Ok will do, will get tests done tomorrow or Monday and will post results here.

If my stuff is all working do you recommend I just leave it all or should I consider replacing it all when I get the SWG plumbed in? I plan on replacing my old school pump timer (and light timer) in the garage with a Zwave relay and connecting it to Home Assistant so I can get at least some level of automation beyond a dumb timer. I would love to eventually, if not this season get this stuff upgraded. I would love to add more automation for sure. Definitely would like to upgrade the filter size.

I dont know if i have any options for sprucing up the pool itself when I get the new liner, that coping is loose in places. The steps are kind of a mess. I would LOVE to add a 2nd skimmer, but I guess making changes beyond the liner is going to require redoing basically the entire pool.

Thanks.

 

[ajw22]

If my stuff is all working do you recommend I just leave it all or should I consider replacing it all when I get the SWG plumbed in?

Nothing seems to require immediate attention.

Definitely would like to upgrade the filter size.

You can do a new filter whenever. A larger filter will need more space and probably need to be placed closer to the fence.

I dont know if i have any options for sprucing up the pool itself when I get the new liner, that coping is loose in places. The steps are kind of a mess. I would LOVE to add a 2nd skimmer, but I guess making changes beyond the liner is going to require redoing basically the entire pool.

2nd skimmer will require cutting up the deck At some point when you need to do coping and deck you can put in the skimmer.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

I forgot to bring my water test kit yesterday, but I will bring it today and report back.

When I was there yesterday I noticed the filter was running 20PSI after previously running 10PSI so I opened it up and the brand new filter was already completely nasty so I washed it down like I do my spa filter and put it back. It says to lubricate the o-ring but I didnt have any so I didnt for now. That got it back to roughly 10psi.

I have to say, I am incredibly disappointed with this pool so far...... 1 Skimmer and only 2 jets (1 in the stairs, 1 in the pool) and its causing tree pollen and Crud to get stuck in all the corners of the pool. The skimmer works terribly. I confirmed the weir door is in fact working. I tried repositioning the jet in the pool that is adjustable to get water circulating better because the pool guy had it pointing straight up. the one in the stairs just blows straight out only though. The picture shows the stuff gthat just sits in that corner and never moves from it. I think it may be partially due to the wind and not enough movement of the water combined. I also noticed a lot of the time stuff just goes straight by the skimmer without going in.

Also, the pool has stains all over the liner and stairs, I tried scrubbing it off with the brush but its more a stain than dirt. Maybe i am just stuck with it like that until I change the liner, it needs to be done anyways, its 12 years old.

I made a short video showing the pool in operation, it shows the jets, it shows the debris stuck in the corner, and it shows the operation of the skimmer.

I uploaded video to YT but compression was horrible, this is slightly better, the first half of both were pretty bad but the source video is perfect, i guess the compression doesnt play well with the water:

Thanks much.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

I remembered to bring my TF-100 yesterday. I measured the following:

20ppm FC
PH 7.4
TA 70ppm (never turned red just turned more gold)
CH 200ppm
CYA 100ppm (maybe slightly higher)

Considering how orange the FC was when I tested in the quick test I knew I would see a high number in the DPD test. I guess this is from the opening guy dumping 2 gallons of liquid chlorine in when he opened. I guess they want to make sure they clear up the water so they dont have customers calling for them to come back. Oddly, I dont smell chlorine like you would in a public pool, makes me wonder how high they run theirs!

Considering my CYA was off the scale and I read you want 20-50ppm, I am going to guess what he dumped in also had CYA in it? Or perhaps it was already in there in high levels since the prev owner used tablets for years.

 

[ajw22]

The CYA is probably over 100. Do the water dilution test.

You need to plan on draining a significant portion of the water to lower the CYA. Draining - Further Reading

For CYA > 90ppm, repeat the test adjusting the procedure as follows:

1. Fill the mixing bottle to the lower mark with pool water.
2. Continue filling the mixing bottle to the upper mark with tap water.
3. Shake briefly to mix.
4. Pour off half of the contents of the mixing bottle, so it is again filled to the lower mark.
5. Continue the test normally from adding R-0013, but multiply the final result by two.

If you need to dilute the pool water further then apply these ratios:

Pool water	Tap or distilled water	Multiply result by
1	1	2
1	2	3
1	4	5

Note that when doing a diluted test not only do you multiply the range of the test you multiply the error rate of the test, so results are a ballpark - not an absolute.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

The CYA is probably over 100. Do the water dilution test.

You need to plan on draining a significant portion of the water to lower the CYA. Draining - Further Reading

For CYA > 90ppm, repeat the test adjusting the procedure as follows:

1. Fill the mixing bottle to the lower mark with pool water.
2. Continue filling the mixing bottle to the upper mark with tap water.
3. Shake briefly to mix.
4. Pour off half of the contents of the mixing bottle, so it is again filled to the lower mark.
5. Continue the test normally from adding R-0013, but multiply the final result by two.

If you need to dilute the pool water further then apply these ratios:

Pool water	Tap or distilled water	Multiply result by
1	1	2
1	2	3
1	4	5

Note that when doing a diluted test not only do you multiply the range of the test you multiply the error rate of the test, so results are a ballpark - not an absolute.

Thank you I will repeat the test with your modification today. I will also repeat the test normally because it was my first time doing it and I am not sure I did it 100% correctly. What is crazy is this is after draining off a lot of water already. I drained it down several inches twice now (once upon opening and once after a big rain storm). Would this be from years of building up or did that idiot pool guy add stabilized chlorine when he dumped the 2 gallons in? I guess I will never know, I think he took the empty bottles with him.

Regarding the high chlorine, is that ok? I'm reading on here that is shock levels but its been a week since he opened it, so i would imagine it was way higher in the begining. Is it safe to have FC that high if no one is using the pool? Also, why doesnt it stink like a public pool if the FC is that high? I assume other factors are at play.

Thanks as always.

 

[ajw22]

I drained it down several inches twice now (once upon opening and once after a big rain storm).

A few inches in a 5 foot deep pool may be 5% of the water.

You need to drain 50% or more of the water.

Would this be from years of building up

Probably.

or did that idiot pool guy add stabilized chlorine when he dumped the 2 gallons in? I guess I will never know, I think he took the empty bottles with him.

Jugs of liquid chlorine don't contain CYA.

Solid chlorine products like Trichlor contain CYA.

Regarding the high chlorine, is that ok?

Yes, Get familiar with the PoolMath

Any FC level up to SLAM FC level for your CYA level is safe to swim in. For CYA 100 up to FC of 40 is safe.

I'm reading on here that is shock levels but its been a week since he opened it, so i would imagine it was way higher in the begining. Is it safe to have FC that high if no one is using the pool?

Read CYA - Further Reading

CYA Chlorine Relationship - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Also, why doesnt it stink like a public pool if the FC is that high?

It is the CC's that stink, not the chlorine.

CC - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Pool Care Basics Archives

Your one-stop shop for all things TFP to include: ABCs of Water Chemistry, Recommended Chemicals/Levels, Test Kits, Troubleshooting, and much more!

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Ok I repeated the CYA test with the dilution method. First, wanted to let you know, perhaps the bottle they give has changed but it has 3 marks: 7.5ml/15ml/30ml. Your instructions say the lowest line but based on the fact its a 50% dilution method I figured you meant the second 15ml line, and then fill with tap to 30ml so I adjusted accordingly. Just wanted to let you know incase others get confused down the road.

Since the test is subjective its hard to say but I would say the dot was pretty much gone but visible just barely from 70 to 50 (140ppm to 100ppm) and completely disappeared at 50(100ppm). At 70(140ppm) I could only see it at certain angles. So I feel pretty good to say its between 100-140ppm which based on all the reading homework you gave me, is way way too high. The amount of chlorine I am going to need to run in this pool is going to be crazy, especially since I imagine you are going to tell me to stop using tablets because they add even more CYA. It's going to be a lot of liquid chlorine to get to safe levels it seems like, I need to run at least 8FC and recommends 11-13 at my levels (maybe more if its 140ppm). Probably one of the biggest annoyances is I wont be able to do a simple chlorine test using the comparator unless I guess I do a diluted one, I will need to do a DPD powder test to get good results i would think.

It has me wondering what the previous owner was doing, I guess running way way too low FC levels because she had no idea about the high CYA. I would imagine she was def using a standard chlorine/ph tester and putting the FC to those recommended levels.

I have a well, so to drain the pool is going to probably require getting water deliveries. The thing is, my liner needs to be replaced, I was going to do it probably next year. Would it make sense to deal with the high CYA this year and then fix the problem properly when I replace the liner next year?

I also bought a Pentair 920 from Margaret to replace the aquabot, so thanks everyone for that recommendation.

 

[ajw22]

I have a well, so to drain the pool is going to probably require getting water deliveries. The thing is, my liner needs to be replaced, I was going to do it probably next year. Would it make sense to deal with the high CYA this year and then fix the problem properly when I replace the liner next year?

What does fix properly mean?

You are stuck with few good choices.

You need to drain some 70% of your pool to get CYA down around 40 to chlorinate with liquid chlorine.

Forget tablets that will just add back CYA.

Draining the 70% of the water with an old liner puts the liner at risk. And with your well you can't run the NO Drain Water Exchange method.

I think your best alternative is to install a SWG. With an SWG you can run at a FC level of 5%-7% of your CYA. That would let you run at a FC of around 8 with your current CYA level. You want to keep your FC below 10 so your pH test works properly.

Over time your CYA level will drop slowly as the CYA degrades and eventually you will have fresh water when you replace your liner.

I think a SWG is in your future.

Look at a Circupool RJ45 or RJ60+

Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features | DSP

www.discountsaltpool.com

 

[proavia]

You have been given sage advice.

Additionally, the pH reading will read falsely high with FC of 10+.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

What does fix properly mean?

You are stuck with few good choices.

You need to drain some 70% of your pool to get CYA down around 40 to chlorinate with liquid chlorine.

Forget tablets that will just add back CYA.

Draining the 70% of the water with an old liner puts the liner at risk. And with your well you can't run the NO Drain Water Exchange method.

I think your best alternative is to install a SWG. With an SWG you can run at a FC level of 5%-7% of your CYA. That would let you run at a FC of around 8 with your current CYA level. You want to keep your FC below 10 so your pH test works properly.

Over time your CYA level will drop slowly as the CYA degrades and eventually you will have fresh water when you replace your liner.

I think a SWG is in your future.

Look at a Circupool RJ45 or RJ60+

Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features | DSP

www.discountsaltpool.com

By fix it properly, I meant fully drain the pool and replace all the water with the new liner. I thought I had other short term fixes as band aids like running this high level with liquid chlorine but you just said that isnt an option, so I guess there is few good options as you said.

Is draining like 20% and refilling and repeating not an option? Or drain down like 1 water truck worth and then get a delivery and at least get it down to reasonable levels? I know you said 70% to fix it, but is there no middle ground of just getting it lower until I do the liner?

Assuming not, I will look at the salt water generator. Is this something I can install myself or I need a pro to install? I was always interested in the SWG so I guess now is as good as time as any to get one. I assume if I want to upgrade my equipment at some point in the near future, the SWG would still be compatible? Eventually I am going to want one of the fancy automated systems. I dont want to spend a lot of cash on a SWG and then it not be compatible when i upgrade everything else (or like if the new equipment has a built in SWG for example). That being said, as you said, I have few options here.

The thing is, how was the previous owner making this work? Was she just running way too low chorline? I've seen pictures of the pool from last year though, it looked perfect, if the chlorine was too low, wouldnt she never be able to get it clear?

Thanks as always.

 

[ajw22]

Is draining like 20% and refilling and repeating not an option? Or drain down like 1 water truck worth and then get a delivery and at least get it down to reasonable levels?

Doing partial cycles of draining will use much more water.

Work the numbers. Let's assume your CYA is 140 in a 20,000 gallon pool. Drain 20%, 4,000 gallons, and you then have CYA 112 water. Drain another 4,000 gallons and you have CYA CYA 100 water. Another 4,000 gallons and CYA 80 water. another 4,000 gallons and CYA 64. Another 4,000 gallons and CYA 50, Another 4,000 gallons CYA 40.

You used 24,000 gallons of water in six cycles to get a 20,000 gallon pool drained by 70%. You used 24,000 gallons of water to replace 14,000 gallons.

So you can do it with enough time, effort, and water.

I know you said 70% to fix it, but is there no middle ground of just getting it lower until I do the liner?

Start with how you want to chlorinate.

• Trichlor tablets - start with CYA 20-30
• Liquid chlorine - start with CYA 30-40
• SWG - start with CYA 60-100+

Assuming not, I will look at the salt water generator. Is this something I can install myself or I need a pro to install?

Installing a SWG can be DIY if you can do basic high voltage wiring and PVC work. Many here have.

I was always interested in the SWG so I guess now is as good as time as any to get one. I assume if I want to upgrade my equipment at some point in the near future, the SWG would still be compatible? Eventually I am going to want one of the fancy automated systems. I dont want to spend a lot of cash on a SWG and then it not be compatible when i upgrade everything else (or like if the new equipment has a built in SWG for example). That being said, as you said, I have few options here.

Well now you threw in a new wrinkle. If automation is in your future then decide what brand automation you want to go with and get a compatible SWG system.

The thing is, how was the previous owner making this work? Was she just running way too low chorline? I've seen pictures of the pool from last year though, it looked perfect, if the chlorine was too low, wouldnt she never be able to get it clear?

Trichlor tablets will work until they don't. We have seen pools where it works up to CYA of 300+.

You have the advantage in NJ that pools are drained some for closing in the winter and CYA degrades in the winter. So you hit peak CYA at your pool closing and it will be less on opening. The cycle can repeat until it no longer works. A liner leak or liner replacement can reset the cycle.

You can try running Trichlor tablets for a year until you replace your liner. Just understand that if you slack off and get algae in the pool it will be difficult to clear it at the high CYA levels.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Ok, so I have a few things to think about. I would consider replacing the liner this season but that is going to take too long to help me and I may want to do other renovations when I do the liner, so it would be best I wait on that.

Draining down/exchanging I see now is not going to work, especially with a well.

Do you have someone/company you recommend from Northern NJ to do the SWG? I am good with electrical but terrible with plumbing PVC, I probably should just get someone to do it, plus they can make sure whatever I do is suitable for a future upgrade of the equipment. I might want to do something similar to your signature line.

As far as running trichlor tablets, I am willing to try but the fact it messes up PH reading seems like a problem. I think I should go the SWG route and make sure its compatible with a automation system/upgraded system.

Thanks.

 

[ajw22]

Do you have someone/company you recommend from Northern NJ to do the SWG?

Where exactly are you?

I am good with electrical but terrible with plumbing PVC, I probably should just get someone to do it, plus they can make sure whatever I do is suitable for a future upgrade of the equipment.

You will find a pool company sells what they are a dealer for. If you want specific products you have to find who the dealers are in your area.

I might want to do something similar to your signature line.

I am in the process of transitioning to all Pentair equipment - IntelliCenter automation, IntelliFlo pump, IntelliChor SWG. I have an IntelliCenter sitting in my garage to replace my Aqualink someday.

As far as running trichlor tablets, I am willing to try but the fact it messes up PH reading seems like a problem. I think I should go the SWG route and make sure its compatible with a automation system/upgraded system.

Well you understand your options.

 

[swimspaguyy11]

Where exactly are you?

Rockaway, NJ

 

[ajw22]

I am on the Palisades and don't think any of the pool services I know go that far out on Rt 80.