Seeking a new pump, considering v-green 1.65, priming concerns

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servion

Member
May 21, 2022
16
North Carolina
Hello! The short version is that I need a new pump. My current one is dying and has been having trouble priming.

22000 gal in-ground salt-water pool
2 skimmers, 1 main drain, sand filter
The pump is probably 3-4 feet higher than the pool water level and is approximately ~15 feet from the pool itself, all due to landscaping/yard layout. It has been this way since it was built ~12 years ago.

Current pump/motor info: single speed Hayward (wired at 230v), 12 years old:
Hayward Tristar single speed: SP3210EE (1.85 THP, 1.0 FRHP, 1.85 service factor)
Motor details: SP3210Z1BER

I used to run it anywhere between 8-12 hours a day, and I swear that at least $100 a month of my power bill is due to this thing, it seems like a power HOG. I have been talking to Inyo and they have been really helpful, and they have recommended the V-Green 1.65 (ECM16SQU), which is only 1.65 THP versus my current 1.85. But in reading its manual, I see the prime speed is 2400RPM (whereas my single speed is 3450 as it all-or-none), and I'm concerned that the new pump won't have enough muster to prime the lines.

I read that this pump can have its prime speed and duration increased, but it requires a $270 controller that is not even in stock. Given that the pump itself is $475, I am suspecting that if I need that controller to get my pool to prime, I could probably buy a whole different pump/motor for that combined price. Also, in getting a new impeller, back plate, and diffuser I am now up to ~$750, which I suspect is getting close to the price of other combined full full pump/motor units.

So at this point, I am seeking to see if this is a fair replacement for my pool, or if its going to be underpowered for priming or in general. It would be nice to replace the entire pump as the current pump/basket is 12yo but it does look like it's in good shape and I don't want to spend money just for fun :p.

Any recommendations would be most welcome!
 
First off you will save a lot on electricity going to a VS pump
Second benefit is they are soo much quieter.

I had a inyo pump that started leaking after 2 years. I don’t think it was make for a salt pool ( I converted later so didn’t think to ask ) but my fault for not catching the leak before it hurt the bearings. I would ask about that even if you don’t have a SWG now. Bought it 4 years ago so hopefully they fixed that issue.

I replaced a 1.5 HP super pump with the 1.65 VS and it did have some issues priming. I thought it was my pool but replaced it with a 2.7 hp tristar and the issue went away. But it also cost me a lot more money.

Inyo seems to be a good outfit, just questions to ask about upfront. If you can get a bigger size for not a lot more money would be worth it IMHO
 
According to the rating plate on your existing motor the maximum amp draw at 240v would be 7.5 amps. You will use the existing impeller and it will load the original motor to its maximum rating of 7.5. The V-Green motor is rated at a maximum of 10 amps. Based on that the V-Green 165 would work. The impeller will still only place a load of 7.5 on it. The nice thing about the 165 is that it can be used with an existing timeclock. There should be no issue in the priming other than it might be a little slower.
Unless they are damaged you don't need a new impeller, sealplate or diffuser as the motor will bolt right on. You will need a new shaft seal and should also replace the body gasket (and lid O ring while you're there). I've made this swap about 20+ times on various pumps, including a TriStar, and have never had an issue.
At the lower speeds you will save money on energy costs. Run it at full speed only and there is no savings.
 
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servion said:
I have been talking to Inyo and they have been really helpful, and they have recommended the V-Green 1.65 (ECM16SQU), which is only 1.65 THP versus my current 1.85.
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The 1.85 HP is really 1.65.

Put a check valve after the pump and not before the pump.

Put a Jandy NeverLube valve before the pump to close the line for service.

As long as the plumbing is all airtight, the pump should not need to "prime" except on the initial prime.
 
1poolman1 said:
According to the rating plate on your existing motor the maximum amp draw at 240v would be 7.5 amps. You will use the existing impeller and it will load the original motor to its maximum rating of 7.5. The V-Green motor is rated at a maximum of 10 amps. Based on that the V-Green 165 would work. The impeller will still only place a load of 7.5 on it. The nice thing about the 165 is that it can be used with an existing timeclock. There should be no issue in the priming other than it might be a little slower.
Unless they are damaged you don't need a new impeller, sealplate or diffuser as the motor will bolt right on. You will need a new shaft seal and should also replace the body gasket (and lid O ring while you're there). I've made this swap about 20+ times on various pumps, including a TriStar, and have never had an issue.
At the lower speeds you will save money on energy costs. Run it at full speed only and there is no savings.
Click to expand...

Aaah - this is good to know. So Inyo recommended changing the impeller and diffuser also just on age, but they "look fine" to me. Sorry, I'm not 100% following you on the impeller info: are you saying that if I change the impeller, it will cause it to draw more amperage, but if I keep my current impeller then it will effectively provide the same suction?

I've attached pictures of my current impeller, it's Hayward P/N SP3210C. Inyo recommended "1.5 THP - SPX3210C". There is one little ding you can see on the edge from my screwdriver when I was removing it (d'oh) but other than that it looks OK to me. I'd happily keep my old impeller, diffuser.

The sealplate had a TON of "grossness" between it and the motor, it looks like old dirty sand/muck. So I think I'll replace the sealplate, but the rest would be nice to keep. The body gasket - is that the one between the seal plate and the pump basket, or the seal plate and the motor? I don't see any gasket at all between the sealplate and the motor and in fact that is where all the crud was when I disassembled it yesterday.
 

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Your impeller (new or used if the same number) will only cause the motor to draw the 7.5 amps of the original motor rating.
If you want, replace all the items. I've seen impellers with far worse damage work just fine. There will always be "grossness" between the motor and sealplate after about a year or less, especially if the seal was leaking. Most of the sandy material is likely corrosion of the front of the motor. I just wash it off and inspect for damage. If there is none it doesn't get replaced (saves the customer money). No gasket between motor and sealplate. Be very sure to replace the left-hand-thread screw.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies!!

JamesW said:
The 1.85 HP is really 1.65.

Put a check valve after the pump and not before the pump.

Put a Jandy NeverLube valve before the pump to close the line for service.

As long as the plumbing is all airtight, the pump should not need to "prime" except on the initial prime.
Click to expand...
@JamesW - I've attached a picture of my current setup (the pump is on the bench currently).

I have a Jandy 1-way valve just before the inlet of the pump ("before" meaning earlier in the water flow). Water flows through 3 on-off valves (so I can turn on/off flow FROM the skimmers and main drain) -> Jandy 1-way valve -> the pump. Do these 3 on-off valves accomplish what you're talking about re: the Jany NeverLube to close the line for service?

From there, it flows straight to the sand tank, then back to the pool. There is also a booster-pump in line which hooks to my sweeper.

Are you saying I should add a 1-way valve "after the pump" - between the pump and the filter - (like what I have now just before the pump)? I didn't ever notice priming issues prior years, just this year.

1poolman1 said:
Your impeller (new or used if the same number) will only cause the motor to draw the 7.5 amps of the original motor rating.
If you want, replace all the items. I've seen impellers with far worse damage work just fine. There will always be "grossness" between the motor and sealplate after about a year or less, especially if the seal was leaking. Most of the sandy material is likely corrosion of the front of the motor. I just wash it off and inspect for damage. If there is none it doesn't get replaced (saves the customer money). No gasket between motor and sealplate. Be very sure to replace the left-hand-thread screw.
Click to expand...
@1poolman1 : I've attached pictures of the grossness - this is the back seal and the motor itself. I can see a little of this nasty stuff has gotten behind the rubber seal on the shaft of the motor itself, and the motor started making "spinning noises" in the last few hours of usage, so I have "assumed" that all of this is the cause of my priming issues.

Based on what you see here - do you think it's worthwhile to clean this all up, re-install the motor and back plate with existing impeller, install a new pump seal and body gasket (I have both) and see if the problem is solved? Or is there no way that this is causing my priming issue? I've got another thread here where I've listed all the things I did to diagnose the priming issue: Other thread here on TFP

If I do get a new pump and I get the v-green 1.65, is there another impeller that "flows more", that would cause the motor to pull more amperage, that I could swap out if I need more oomph to prime?
 

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You have had a leaking seal for a long time. A bad seal can cause priming problems. Spinning noises = bad bearings ruined by a leaking seal. Your sealplate is damaged. Upper right insert has pulled out. Replace it. If you want to replace all the parts to be more comfortable, do so, can't hurt.
For future reference, we don't want to see water at the equipment pad unless we know that it is coming from something that won't be damaged or flooded. Water around a pump is almost always bad (except Sta-Rite pumps that spit water from the lid when turned off).
If you want a larger impeller to get more flow (more flow=more horsepower) you will need a larger motor. Next size widely available variable-speed motor is V-Green 2.7. Works differently from the 1.65. If you had no problems with your pump initially, it will be good after the repair. Larger does not mean it will prime faster. Advantage of larger horsepower variable-speed is that you turn run it even slower for energy savings and still move a good amount of water. You have to weigh the increased initial cost against potential savings over a long term. When will the extra cost be paid back?
 
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1poolman1 said:
You have had a leaking seal for a long time. A bad seal can cause priming problems. Spinning noises = bad bearings ruined by a leaking seal. Your sealplate is damaged. Upper right insert has pulled out. Replace it. If you want to replace all the parts to be more comfortable, do so, can't hurt.
For future reference, we don't want to see water at the equipment pad unless we know that it is coming from something that won't be damaged or flooded. Water around a pump is almost always bad (except Sta-Rite pumps that spit water from the lid when turned off).
If you want a larger impeller to get more flow (more flow=more horsepower) you will need a larger motor. Next size widely available variable-speed motor is V-Green 2.7. Works differently from the 1.65. If you had no problems with your pump initially, it will be good after the repair. Larger does not mean it will prime faster. Advantage of larger horsepower variable-speed is that you turn run it even slower for energy savings and still move a good amount of water. You have to weigh the increased initial cost against potential savings over a long term. When will the extra cost be paid back?
Click to expand...
I see - so based on this, I can't find any bearing part numbers and given that the single speed is a power hog, I'll just plan to replace the pump motor and seal plate.

So back to your original comment - even though my old pump was always running at 3450RPM all the time, it did prime fine previous years. Given that the V-green primes at a lower 2400RPM, do you think I will be good to go with this v-green 1.65 motor with a new seal plate? Or do you think I will need the extra RPM/oomph to prime that the v-green 2.7 will give?

The 2.7 is $325 more than the 1.65, but it looks like it comes with the "controller" that the 1.65 does not. Meaning, I would probably rather get the 2.7 than get the 1.65 + a controller which comes close to the cost of the 2.7 in the first place. I do have a goldline control system which turns the pump on and off with a digital timer, also measures flow and engages salt cell, etc.
 
I have never seen a pump, including a TriStar, with the 1.65 have a problem priming. As was said earlier, it may be a little slower, but may not. The 2.7 will not work with your automation without an additional interface (+/- $200.00) that would also eliminate the on-board control you seem to want (you didn't mention that you had automation). With a standard motor and old automation you just have an expensive on/off switch. Variable-speed motors don't work that way.

As the prime cycle programming is built in to the control that would be removed you would have none and have to rely on the first speed to do the priming. The 1.65 will work with what you have, but the programming will have to be a little different. There are YouTube videos that explain the principle, usually with a mechanical timer, but can be done with automation as well (done it twice with no problems).

A larger pump does not necessarily prime faster. If you don't increase the size of the impeller, there is no reason to get a larger motor, especially in your case. No new VSP will work directly with that old Goldline system, either.
 

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My apologies if I left a critical part of the picture out! I am not sure if this is considered "automation" (as you can tell I am no expert in this field :) ). It's not a manual timer but it does have a flow sensor, measures salt ppm, has a salt cell and a chlorination % setting (which I have assumed that is a control of the salt cell itself). I've attached a picture of the unit. It also controls the boost-a-pump to run the vacuum sweeper, and also the pool lights.

I don't think my current unit will do direct speed control of a VS pump, I think it just turns a pump on and off on a schedule.

What I was picturing was that I would use the existing system to "turn on and off" the v-green 1.65, and the v-green would start its timer beginning from when the main system turns it on. For example, if the v-green is setup to run 16 hours a day: if I set my main system to keep the pump on 16 hours a day, then when it shuts off the v-green and turns it on the next day, the v-green would just start over (including the initial "prime" time). I was "assuming" that when the v-green is given power, it would kick on automatically and begin its "day" over, if that makes sense. So if I match the v-green timer to run as long or longer then the time slots on my goldlline, the v-green would just "start over" when the goldline timer comes on. Am I understanding this correctly, or is there some implicit incompatibility with the VS pump and my goldline?

If the timer is a problem - would it work to keep the pump on 24/7? I.e., always run the v-green 1.65 and program it to run at low speeds most of the time, then leave the goldline keeping the pump on 24/7 so the speed is always controlled by the v-green itself - does that solve the problem? I suppose if this is the answer, then it requires me to run the pump 24/7...
 

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JamesW said:
If the software is at least 2.65. then it should be able to control a Tristar VS.
View attachment 414590

Click to expand...
Interesting... my panel controls definitely are more simple than the one pictured, but I was able to use that to determine that I am on revision 4.20. Does that mean that my automation unit can actually set the pump speeds of a VS pump? If so, does it need to be one of those Hayward pumps, or would it work with the v-green 1.65 or 2.7?
 
JamesW said:

This manual is from 2010 and it shows 4 timers for the pump.
Click to expand...
That sounds great.... Thank you for digging this up @JamesW ! It looks like the Hayward 1.85 is just shy of $1500, which is unfortunately another $1000 on top of the price of v-green 1.65 motor.

I understand this may be one of those "get what you pay for" situations -- specifically, it would work with my existing automation (which is big!). But this was a bit of a surprise purchase and I'm hoping to keep it lower unless it's really really worth it :/. Still, I am not sure if the v-green 1.65 would work with the existing automation (unless perhaps I leave the pump on 24/7).

It looks like perhaps there is an adapter that v-green makes to work with some automation systems... but that's another $270, which is inching closer to the full-Hayward replacement option.
 
servion said:
That sounds great.... Thank you for digging this up @JamesW ! It looks like the Hayward 1.85 is just shy of $1500, which is unfortunately another $1000 on top of the price of v-green 1.65 motor.

I understand this may be one of those "get what you pay for" situations -- specifically, it would work with my existing automation (which is big!). But this was a bit of a surprise purchase and I'm hoping to keep it lower unless it's really really worth it :/. Still, I am not sure if the v-green 1.65 would work with the existing automation (unless perhaps I leave the pump on 24/7).

It looks like perhaps there is an adapter that v-green makes to work with some automation systems... but that's another $270, which is inching closer to the full-Hayward replacement option.
Click to expand...
Before you purchase a pump, look into your pumps menu in the configuration menu. If there is not an option for a variable speed pump it won't communicate with a Hayward, or any other, VSP directly. If you seriously want to use your Goldline (Hayward) system you can look for the highly elusive OmniPL upgrade kit (they just were released). Right now, if you can get one, they are about $12-$1300. Then, you would have to buy a Hayward VSP. Good pumps, had mine without problem for about 12 years.

Your system will operate a V-Green 165. I've done it with 2 Hayward systems, but several Jandy. They all work about the same. You can use it to set a start time, allow the internal timer to go through its programming (whatever you set) and then stop. You can leave that relay "on" forever (or put the wires from the Load terminals of relay 1 to the Line side) and the motor will do its program every 24 hours. That is the simplest but gives you no control through the automation.

You can hook it up as your pump is now, set the relay 1 (pump) to turn on at, for example, 2:00AM and it will start and stop its 24-hour cycle. That lets you set a long, slow run for the benefit of circulation and your SWG.

Have relay 1 turn off at 1:30AM (every one's in bed by then and don't need the pool) and power will be available to run the pump in manual mode after the program has run if you need to have more circulation for a party or other event until that time. You cannot turn the power off and right back on to any variable-speed motor, it won't restart. You must give it some time for the internal capacitors to drain so it can reset. Must be off for at least 5 minutes to be sure. I usually set them up as above, "on" 2:00AM, "off" 1:30AM.

You will only use the "start" and "stop" buttons on the motor to service the pump, not the automation. If you put the system in "service" or "time out" mode it will re-set the variable-speed motor's cycle and it will start over at speed one and use its 24 cycle until the next power interruption. Not a big deal and it only lasts the one day.

Bottom line is if you were happy with the pump you have as a single-speed, you will be happier with it as a variable-speed. It will take a little learning curve, but is worth it.
 

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