Pump won't prime, was fine yesterday

[servion]

I just had our pool opened up for the year by the company which made the pool originally 12 years ago, and who has always done our major pool service (opening and closing). This year, we had them to open the pool, and they got it up, primed, and running successfully. Water is green and cloudy, a bit worse than usual but nothing out of the ordinary. However, after being shut off overnight, I can no longer get the system to prime. Details:

22000 gal in-ground salt-water pool, sand filter, Hayward 1 HP single speed motor (probably 12 years old). 2 skimmers, and 1 main drain, no changes at all to the configuration since it has been built originally 12 years ago. The pump is probably 3-4 feet higher than the pool water level, and is approximately ~15 fret from the pool itself, all due to landscaping/yard layout.

Normally after opening, I have to backflush the sand filter 4-5 times over the first few days (often 2-3 times the first day) to keep the pressure within normal range. Because it was higher algae, they recommend not backflushing for 24 hours to let chlorine/algicide do its thing. I had to perform 2 short backflushes within the first 2 hours just to get pressure down to normal (spiked up to 25, 30psi), down to it's normal 17psi.

I had to leave home and left the pool running, and when I got home that night, the pressure was up to 30psi. I shut off the pump, quick backflush, turned it back on and it was down to the normal 17psi. At that point, I decided to leave it off overnight and kick it on again in the AM. When I went to turn it on in the morning, I can no longer get it to prime. I cannot get ANY water to flow into the pump skimmer section from the pool side. It was fine the night before, and now I can't get any water to flow into the pump. I've checked everything I can think of and I'm at my wits end! Here's what I've done:

1. Used plumbers bladder in both skimmers, to ensure water freely flows just fine all the way to the pump
2. Disassembled, inspected reassembled the Janky 1-way valve before the pump (cleaned, lubed o-ring)
3. Purchased new o-ring seal for skimmer basket lid, cleaned and lubed with Jacks 327
4. Stuck my finger in to check for debris from skimmer side, its clean and spins freely (pump does sound normal as well when running)
5. Got dishsoap bubbles, put bubbles all over all accessible areas on the suction side, I cannot see any bubbles getting sucked in anywhere (including skimmer lid and drain valves)
6. Primed both skimmer lines with water using plumbers bladder (pushing water in from pool side), closed the valves after filling, fill skimmer basket with water, open valves while simultaneously kicking pump on
7. Repeated different combinations of valves to have 1-skimmer on, 2-skimmers on main off, 1 skimmer on main on, etc. with filling the pump skimmer with water before turning on pump
8. Turned sand filter to bypass, bypass to waste, and tried all of the above

No matter what, I can't get any water to flow from the suction side of the pool unless I force it there through a skimmer with the plumbers bladder - but when I do, water flows freely from both poolside pump skimmers all the way to the pump skimmer.

Each time I fill the pump skimmer fully before attempting to prime. Pump sounds normal, same as it always has. When I turn on the pump, it nearly INSTANTLY sucks all the water in from the skimmer and discharges it, no problem. However, when I run the pump with the skimmer lid on it and the Janky 1-way valve lid off, I was expecting to feel a vacuum with my hand over the janky and I don't feel any suction. Should the pump generate enough vacuum that I should be able to feel it with my palm covering the Janky 1-way valve? I am wondering if my pump somehow isn't pulling enough vacuum to suck the water from the pool?

Nothing of the layout/configuration of the pool has changed at all since it was built and it's been fine for 12 years.

It is strange to me that the pump sucks water up quickly and discharges it just fine, I can't find any leaks, and all was working fine the night before, and after sitting overnight I can no longer get ANY water to come down the suction side via the pool pump. I could see if the guys opening the pool couldn't get it the day before, but they got it all started up and it was fine, until sitting overnight.

Any next steps would be most appreciated. I don't want to have the pool company out and pay a major premium for a new pump and labor if I can do it myself... what would be the next steps? Should I try to rig a vacuum gauge to the drain valves on the pump? or if there are any other tests I can do to verify if the pump is bad or if it's something else? My only other idea is to take the pump off, disassemble it and inspect the impeller etc... but again it seems strange that it sounds fine, sucks water out of the skimmer very quickly, and worked fine the prior night.

Please help

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! 12 years is a good run for a pump, but your situation does seem a bit odd since it was working like a horse a few hours ago. You've done some thorough investigating already. Silly question, but your water level is high enough right? If it wasn't, pulling water from the drain would seem to take longer anyways having to go to an elevated pad. When you did teh bladder thing, did you do it from both directions? Skimmers to pump then pump to skimmers? It doesn't take much to influence water pool. A small acorn or something can really disrupt things.

Other than that, since the motor runs fine but doesn't pull water, and you seem to have checked all the usual suction-side suspects, I might wonder if on that previous evening some junk got in the impeller/diffuser area. Even though it appears to move freely, may something is interfering with water transfer?

 

[servion]

Welcome to TFP! 12 years is a good run for a pump, but your situation does seem a bit odd since it was working like a horse a few hours ago. You've done some thorough investigating already. Silly question, but your water level is high enough right? If it wasn't, pulling water from the drain would seem to take longer anyways having to go to an elevated pad. When you did teh bladder thing, did you do it from both directions? Skimmers to pump then pump to skimmers? It doesn't take much to influence water pool. A small acorn or something can really disrupt things.

Other than that, since the motor runs fine but doesn't pull water, and you seem to have checked all the usual suction-side suspects, I might wonder if on that previous evening some junk got in the impeller/diffuser area. Even though it appears to move freely, may something is interfering with water transfer?

Thank you for the warm welcome and post!! I only did test pool-side skimmers -> pump skimmers, because I have a Janky 1-way valve just before the pump. However, I can remove the valve and try to stick the plumber bladder to push water out to the skimmers (and main drain as well). It would be at a slightly wonky angle for the bladder but I bet I can do it. I'll give that a shot and see if anything gets dislodged.

Just to clarify: the motor does pull water from the pump's skimmer (and very quickly when I fill it ahead of time), but obviously not from the pool. I suppose I can pull the pump from the system and disassemble it on the bench to see if anything looks amiss with the impeller or anything else. I always hesitate to remove fittings/lines because my experience with taking pool things apart that haven't been disassembled in some time usually result in needing additional repairs . Last year I had to replace the booster pump (for the pool vacuum) and taking off the lines required some additional PVC repair as it had not been disassembled for a while LOL! But what needs to be done, needs to be done.

The thing that was strange is that if something got in there from the previous evening, I did indeed backflush and then turn it back on in normal filter mode, and saw the normal pressure with everything functioning after the backflush. Are you thinking - maybe the pump got something in it prior to the backflush, but since the lines were fully primed, perhaps the pump was still able to get it going?

Minus any other ideas, I'll stuff the plumbers bladder into the janky valve to push water from pump side -> main drain and skimmers, and if that doesn't solve it, then tomorrow I'll take the pump off to the bench, disassemble and see what I can see. Any other thoughts?

 

[Texas Splash]

maybe the pump got something in it prior to the backflush, but since the lines were fully primed, perhaps the pump was still able to get it going?

Hard to tell. You seem resourceful and have done quite a bit already. Hopefully it's just one of these last items you check.

 

[servion]

Is it worthwhile to try and source a vacuum gauge, to measure vacuum at the pump drain valves? The Hayward Tristar manual talks about only having a dealer do it, and that it should pull 5-6", but at the strainer cover.

Here is an expert from the manual:

5. Suction side clogged.

Solution: Contact a qualified repair professional. Block off to determine if pump will develop a vacuum. You should have 5” - 6” of vacuum at the strainer cover (Only your pool dealer can confirm this with a vacuum gauge). You may be able to check by removing the skimmer basket and holding your hand over the bottom port with skimmer full and pump running. If no suction is felt, check for line blockage.

a. If pump develops a vacuum, check for blocked suction line or dirty strainer basket. An air leak in the suction piping may be the cause.
b. If pump does not develop a vacuum and pump has sufficient “priming water”:
i. Re-check strainer housing cover and all threaded connections for suction leaks. Check if all system hose clamps are tight.
ii. Check voltage to ensure that the motor is rotating at full RPM’s.
iii. Open housing cover and check for clogging or obstruction in suction. Check impeller for debris.
iv. Remove and replace shaft seal only if it is leaking.

I'm having trouble interpreting this - would the place to check the vacuum be the drain ports at the bottom? Or somehow by removing the entire strainer cover ("plastic lid on top of the strainer") and attaching a blockoff plate with a nipple to measure vacuum? If the latter, I don't have that available

When it says to check by "removing the skimmer basket and holding your hand over the bottom port with skimmer full and pump running": I am sincerely hoping it's not saying to put your hand inside the BOTTOM of the bowl where the strainer goes, WHILE it's running? That sounds very dangerous.... what is that "bottom port" that I am supposed to hold my hand over to check for vacuum? Is it one of the drain valves? Or perhaps the actual PVC line where the suction side of the pool water hooks up (pump inlet)?

 

[Texas Splash]

Is it worthwhile to try and source a vacuum gauge, to measure vacuum at the pump drain valves?

Let's ask @mas985 what he thinks on this one.

 

[mas985]

Getting a suction gauge probably isn't going to help you much when the pump doesn't prime because the pump cannot generate much suction under those conditions so the gauge is unlikely to read anything. A suction gauge is useful in assessing the suction side head loss but that is about it.

Normally, when I see a pump that is failing to prime while trying to open a pool, I immediately suspect a clog somewhere in the suction line or impeller. If you remove the pump basket, you should be able to reach into the impeller inlet to see if there is any debris lodged in there. If that does not work, then you may need to take the pump apart.

 

[sktn77a]

Try running a hose into the pump skimmer basket (lid off. Turn the pump on briefly (10-15 seconds) and see if it sucks all the water up very quickly (it should as it has way more flow than a hose). The impeller could still be (partially) clogged but at least it should tell you if there's a major problem with the impeller or the suction line (clog).

 

[servion]

OK so update - I tried using the plumbers bladder to push water the other direction; removed the Janky 1-way valve cover and stuffed the plumbers bladder in there to push water to the pool via skimmers and main drain. Nothing looked like it dislodged, and everything seemed to flow OK... I could see water flowing out of both skimmers.

I closed the valves to keep the lines primed, and then gave it another go, and was able to get it primed, by pulling from just 1 skimmer, then the other skimmer, then the main drain. Not sure if I dislodged something or of it was just a combination of priming in a good order, but its flowing again.

However, now the pump is noisier than before. Definitely getting louder throughout the day. I cleaned up all the pine straw under the pump and noticed that there is leak where the motor seals to the skimmer basket, so it looks like I need to change the shaft seal. Given that the motor is 12 years old - I am wondering if it's worthwhile to change the shaft seal and see if the motor is still good for another season? Or is the fact that the motor is getting louder evidence that I need a whole new motor?

I do have a shaft seal as I bought the Hayward OEM quick pump repair kit (to change the o-ring on the pump skimmer seal), so I can change the shaft seal... however does the "noisy motor" mean that I am doomed to need new bearings / a new motor? Or is it possible that replacing the shaft seal could potentially fix the "noisy motor"?

 

[willygee]

Shaft seal may have damaged bearing. I would have a spare motor at the ready when you pull yours if the rest of your pump(wet end) is healthy. The long motor case bolts which would need to be removed for bearing replacement are probably frozen hindering bearing replacement. What model pump do you have?

 

[servion]

Shaft seal may have damaged bearing. I would have a spare motor at the ready when you pull yours if the rest of your pump(wet end) is healthy. The long motor case bolts which would need to be removed for bearing replacement are probably frozen hindering bearing replacement. What model pump do you have?

I have a Hayward Tristar single speed pump, model SP3210Z1BER
The motor model number is this: T63CXDCY-1652

I've attached a picture - you can see it has some corrosion, so I am guessing it's been leaking for a while perhaps?

 

[sktn77a]

Pumps make a loud rattling/rasping noise when they cavitate. Do you have any air in the pump basket? Any air bubbles coming out of the return jets?

 

[willygee]

I have a Hayward Tristar single speed pump, model SP3210Z1BER
The motor model number is this: T63CXDCY-1652

I've attached a picture - you can see it has some corrosion, so I am guessing it's been leaking for a while perhaps?

I just pulled an identical single speed pump motor off my TriStar. It is 12 years old and still working fine sits on a shelf as a standby unit. Probably lots of deals on single speed pumps as they are becoming illegal to sell. You would be a candidate for a two-speed or variable speed such as the v green 1.65 that will bolt right up to your TriStar with no plumbing change.

 

[servion]

So... I tried to start it up again today and it wouldn't prime. I decided to take the pump off and disassemble.... well.... I think this may be a contributing factor... see attached photos. This is between the motor and the seal plate.

Follow-up questions:

1. Is this worth trying to clean, change shaft seal etc. and re-assemble? Or should I just go straight to a new pump and seal plate?
2. Is there supposed to be a gasket between the motor and the seal plate? I don't see one on the diagram.... not sure how this is supposed to stay dry when the pump Is outside?

I am "assuming" its time to get a new pump... I'm definitely looking hard at that v-green 1.65! My only concern is the lower prime speed of 2400rpm. As it is my current pump is struggling to prime, but I suppose it could be due to the pictures here? To change the prime speed, it requires a $270 not-in-stock optional controller. Has yours been alright without one, or did you get that controller?

 

[duraleigh]

Sounds like you are looking at a new VS pump......smart move.

When you get it installed keep those pine needles completely away from it. Pool pumps run quite hot anyway and you want maximum air circulation. I put mine up on pressure tread blocks of wood to keep it clean and elevated.

 

[willygee]

How does the pump volute look?

 

[servion]

That part looks surprisingly good actually, I can't see any signs of damage. Really everything looks good except for the mess in the photos above on/between/inside the pump and the seal plate. With how gross that thing is I am betting that some of the ick/sand/whatever it is got in the motor shaft and cooked the bearings. I sincerely hope a new pump will solve my original priming issues .

At this point the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is the lower prime RPM that this v-green 1.65 runs, I don't want to pay an additional $270 for a controller to turn it up as I'm sure there is a better overall package for that price that wouldn't need an add-on to be adjustable? I think the old hayward runs 3450 RPM all the time, whereas the new one will prime at ~2400 rpm. Has anyone had issues getting a v-green to prime when switching from a single speed which runs at wide-open all the time?

 

[willygee]

If you don't get an answer here reference prime at 2400 RPM create a separate posting. Also I see Amazon has two speed Haywood pump motors listed. Just enter Hayward TriStar 2 speed motor. There are probably better deals out there.

 

[Texas Splash]

I recently purchased a 2-speed (1.5 HP) for my pumps. I say pumps (plural) because I have a Waterway Supreme and Hayward PowerFlo and they are basically identical. It was just under $400 if I recall. Unlike other pumps that have a gasket between the motor and seal plate, mine only have a couple thick O-rings on the volute. I haven't looked, but since you asked maybe yours is the same?