New FL Build - 5 Years Almost done planning

[silfa718]

So the planning has been going on for 5 years, after 3 kids and a move, we are finally at the point where we done designing and need to figure out the the more technical parts before we sign. I've done my share of reading/learning on the forums and thankful for all the information and advice here.


Pool details:

Pool:
Pool size: 37' x 35'.6 (The widest part of the main pool is 27'6, narrowest is 21'6)
SQFT: 1,161
Depth: 3' to 6'
Sunshelf: 26'8 x 13' Depth: 8"
EST Gallons: 27K
Main Drain: 2
Skimmers: 1
Returns: 4
Returns: Spillover from sunshelf
PV3 In Floor
3 x Intellibright Color Led
2 x Glo-Bright Led on Sun shelf
3 x Umbrella Sleeves on Sun Shelf

Spa:
Size: 9' x 7'
Depth: 3'
Raised: 24" (shown in the pictures as 12")
Est Gallons: 930
Jets: 7
Blower: Yes
1 x IB Color Led
Control: Screen Logic 2

Equipment Pentair:
Main Pump: InteliFlo VSF
2nd Pump: InteliFlov VSF
Filtration: 2 Clean and Clear
Filter Size: 200 GPM
Heater: Master TEMP 400K BTU
Timer: IntelliTouch Automation
AutoFill: Yes
Chlorination: Pentair IC60
3 x Colorvision LED Bubblers on Sunshelf

Deck Size: 1855
Travertine
Screen Cage: 2 doors, clear view, 18/14, Mansard Roof

Under the covered area (900sqft) is a kitchen(not yet installed) and sitting/lounge area.

Based on my reading here these are the things I need to go over with the pool builder:
1) Why only 1 skimmer.
2) Look into a larger filter.
3) Add a double door to one of the pool cage doors.
4) Plan outlet/power locations around the cage.
5) Plan individual control of lights and water features.
6) Add more lights to pool and placement so they don't point at house or covered area. (Might not be much of an issue with the step down part)
7) Add lights to steps
8) InteliTouch vs InteliCenter
9) Add light near pool equipment
10) Discuss what size plumbing will be use 1.5, 2, 3.......
11) Plan for solar heating

Included a view looking from the back of the house where the pool will be.

Any and all thoughts on the design (its been changed so many times, whats one more change) and equipment would be appreciated. Anything I missed?

 

[kimkats]

What a wonderful pic of your house/yard and view!!! NICE place there!

So the shelf will be separated from the pool by a "wall"? How how is the wall? How deep will the shelf be?

Depth: 3' to 6'

3' is too shallow. You cannot do a full crawl stroke in. It needs to be at least 3'5". To me 4' is the best.

Skimmers: 1
Returns: 4

With it being in a cage 1 skimmer will be find BUT you do need more than 4 returns to really help move the water.

Spa
Raised: 24"

I worry about the spa blocking the sight of of the pool from anyone on the patio area by the house. Something to think about.

Kim

 

[silfa718]

Thanks for taking a look Kim:

So the shelf will be separated from the pool by a "wall"? How how is the wall? How deep will the shelf be?

A wall yes, 12", and spills into the main pool.
The shelf is 8"" deep, we have considered making it deeper. Maybe 12-15?

I worry about the spa blocking the sight of of the pool from anyone on the patio area by the house. Something to think about.

I have seen you make a similar comment on another thread. Is it because of safety or visually or both. We tried flipping the pool the opposite way, but like having the spa and shelf area closer to the patio area.
I attached some more pictures, it shows a fire-pit platform, which I don't care for.

Also the PB has increased the returns from 4 to 6 and said that he feels one skimmer in a cage pool should be enough.

For the in ground cleaners he has two options one with 10 heads, which he recommends, and one with 30 heads. Thoughts?

What about adding UV water sanitation?

 

[silfa718]

Having the PB plot out the pool on our yard tonight.

 

[kimkats]

Is it because of safety or visually or both.

Both-you cannot see that part of the pool if you are sitting on the patio. If you have kids that IS a big deal. Something to be very aware of and work through in your head.

We tried flipping the pool the opposite way, but like having the spa and shelf area closer to the patio area.

I agree with your placement! It will be so neat to sit in the spa and chat with those on the patio or watch TV.

For the in ground cleaners he has two options one with 10 heads, which he recommends, and one with 30 heads. Thoughts?

Notice I did not about your cleaning system before but you asked so here goes.
-With a cage you will not need that kind of cleaner. You will not get much stuff in your pool.
-Those cleaners cost quite a bit of money. You can buy a robot cleaner for much less.
-Those cleaners have a LOT of moving parts. Moving parts=failure down the road.

What are your thoughts on the in ground cleaner after reading this?

What about adding UV water sanitation?

No need and they don't work very well. Your pool WILL get enough sun even with the cage on it.

Shelf-that was is going to get HOT and fast. You are going to have to make sure it is brushed often to keep it clean. You might even have to get a small cleaner just for that area. If you decide to keep it like a "small pool" I would make it a bit deeper.
What are your thoughts on this shelf? Why do you want a "small pool" inside your big pool? Do you have kids or pets that you think will enjoy this?

Kim

 

[duraleigh]

We NEVER hear people praising their in-ground cleaning system.....only complaints. Kim is likewise correct about UV sanitation......sounds good but doesn't work

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I have an in-floor system and I love it, but I will agree with Kim that if I had a cage, I am not sure it would be worth it. Other than dust, there should be very little debris that would get into the pool.

I also installed UV and ozone, but after running them for several months, have already abandoned them. The ozone is a constant air leak in the system, since it sucks in the ozone at the pump, and the UV continuously eats up the chlorine that my SWCG is producing.

--Jeff

 

[silfa718]

Both-you cannot see that part of the pool if you are sitting on the patio. If you have kids that IS a big deal. Something to be very aware of and work through in your head.

Definitely something to think about, the only option would be to move the sunshelf to top of the pool, so it faces the house.

What are your thoughts on the in ground cleaner after reading this?

I had like the idea that it would be more automated, and not have a hose in the pool. But yes more moving parts equal more risk.

Shelf-that was is going to get HOT and fast. You are going to have to make sure it is brushed often to keep it clean. You might even have to get a small cleaner just for that area. If you decide to keep it like a "small pool" I would make it a bit deeper.
What are your thoughts on this shelf? Why do you want a "small pool" inside your big pool? Do you have kids or pets that you think will enjoy this?

Yes we have three small kids 4,3,2. I can see them wanting to splash and not want to swim in the pool all the time, I do think we should make it deeper maybe 12". But the shelf also gives the visual of the water drop in the pool. I didnt think about the shelf water will get Hot from the spa when the heat is on.

 

[silfa718]

I have an in-floor system and I love it, but I will agree with Kim that if I had a cage, I am not sure it would be worth it. Other than dust, there should be very little debris that would get into the pool.

I also installed UV and ozone, but after running them for several months, have already abandoned them. The ozone is a constant air leak in the system, since it sucks in the ozone at the pump, and the UV continuously eats up the chlorine that my SWCG is producing.

--Jeff

Do you find that inground helps heat the pool better/faster?

I think your post just sealed it. No need for a UV filter.

 

[wilkj1]

i agree with all above. well done on your part great planning ......... being here is also a great way to insure a TFP also welcome to TFP

 

[kimkats]

My heating thoughts was more from the shallow water on the shelf being heated from the sun. I would make it 12" for sure!

So long as you make sure someone is where they can see into all parts of the pools when the kids are in it then it should be okay. I just wanted you to be aware of that thought so you will always use great care to make sure the kids are always in sight!

 

[silfa718]

My heating thoughts was more from the shallow water on the shelf being heated from the sun. I would make it 12" for sure!

So long as you make sure someone is where they can see into all parts of the pools when the kids are in it then it should be okay. I just wanted you to be aware of that thought so you will always use great care to make sure the kids are always in sight!

Will do, and I will make sure to bring it up with my wife to make sure we are all comfortable and on the same page.

Couple new tweeks to the design, experimenting with level changes for the deck and added a fireplace.

 

[kimkats]

Have both adults sit on the floor and hold a tape measure up to them to really see where the water will hit them with different depths.

Now lets talk about something VERY important! Depth-make sure when you are talking to the PB that you are both talking about WATER depth! Some people say depth and mean from the floor to the coping. When you do that you lose water depth as the water depth is only halfway up the water line tile. When that happens you could lose 3 to 4 inches of water.

That fire it is very neat over there!

 

[Rich D]

We have only had out pool for 3 years and we do have a in floor cleaner. So far we love it. Yes , it was expensive however the whole idea of a pool to us was to be able to enjoy it without adding too many more chores on to the property maintenance list. There is nothing in the word "Pool" that is inexpensive. For us it was worth the cost. We have a full view of the pool from inside the house so we can enjoy pool from there as well. Not having to spoil the view of the pool with a large robot and cord is a huge bonus as well as not having to remove and clean the robot daily. You would have the additional task of moving robot from shelf to pool. So a infloor might make sense. I am pretty sure there are lots of moving parts in the robot and the better ones cost upwards of $1000.00 . Do some searches on here for the infloor cleaners to get a good understanding of the pros and cons. I would suggest you be sure that the infloor manufacturer does the design and not the pool PB.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Do you find that inground helps heat the pool better/faster?

I think your post just sealed it. No need for a UV filter.

Unfortunately, I have never tried to heat the pool without running the cleaner. Up until a few weeks ago, I had to run the cleaner all the time, as my PB did not install a way to valve out the cleaning system. I came back after the fact and had to rework some of the plumbing to allow me to valve it so that I could bypass the cleaning system and run the return jets only. So, if you opt for the in floor cleaner, ensure that your builder installs a way for you to completely bypass the system and possibly abandon it if necessary.

It's too hot now to need the heater, but I cannot see how it wouldn't heat the pool more evenly. Adding the water at 12 locations across the bottom or 4 returns along the sides, I would have to think the 12 cleaning heads in the bottom of the pool would do better, since you are getting heated water at the bottom, and not trying to get the main drain to pull the heated water down. I doubt I will ever try to heat the pool without running the cleaner.

I had like the idea that it would be more automated, and not have a hose in the pool. But yes more moving parts equal more risk.

I also liked this idea. My wife has said several times to me, that she loves that we don't have to look at a robot in the pool, or mess with dragging it in/out. She said she looks at photos on our PB's Facebook page and sees ones with the robots in them and they just kill the beauty of the pool.

Regarding the moving parts, I'm not too sure how long before things start to wear, as my system is relatively new, ~7 months old, but from what I understand on the warranty, I have a lifetime warranty on the internals of the multi-port valve. So as long as I am willing to change them out, and they aren't hard to do, I don't think there is much risk. But risk is a subjective thing also.

Your design is looking great! Kim is correct on the water on the shelf heating up quickly. Just from the sunlight, I can tell a difference when I have my arms under the water on the shelf, and move them to the main pool. Shallow water will heat up faster than deeper water. Especially when it is 9-12" deep.

Kim's concern about the spa blocking the sight line into the pool is very valid. Our design is similar, in that the hot tub is the first thing you see out of the house, so it does block the sun deck/baja deck from view, and part of the main pool. Our kids are older, and while I am still concerned about them, not to the degree that I would be with a toddler. We have friends with very young'ins, 4-5 years old, and I do notice that we generally migrate around the pool so that we can see them better. So I would say, if you like the design that way, ensure that you have seating in an area where you can see the full pool, so that you don't have to stand up around the pool while they are in and you want to take a break from being in the water.

Apologies, I just really looked at your equipment list. I would look at changing out the glo-brite lights to a micro brite, or another that does not use a proprietary niche design. I have glo-brites, but I did not find this site, or hear the concerns about them, until after the niches were installed. While mine are doing fine now, the rumor has it that they only last a few years, and you are stuck with keeping them because of the proprietary niche.

I can't comment on the IntelliTouch, but I have the IntelliCenter and love it. That is supposed to be Pentair's flagship automation, but it has been somewhat buggy as of late, due to what I believe is their lack of understanding how pool owners actually want to use their pool, and what they think pool owners want. I would absolutely go with the IntelliCenter again though, even with the issues I've seen.

Another thing to remember is that every light or set of lights you want to control independently requires an additional power transformer and relay, so make sure you have a large enough controller for everything you want to do. Example, to control your pool/spa lights, sun shelf lights, and color bubblers independently of each other, would require 3 transformers,1 for each grouping, and 3 control relays. I am running an I8PS Intellicenter and that would almost max out my relays. I think I would have 1 left over. So you might want to consider the I10PS Intellicenter, if you want to control that much independently. Which I would if it were mine.

Sorry for the long winded post! Hope this helps!

--Jeff

 

[Rich D]

Regarding the moving parts, I'm not too sure how long before things start to wear, as my system is relatively new, ~7 months old, but from what I understand on the warranty, I have a lifetime warranty on the internals of the multi-port valve. So as long as I am willing to change them out, and they aren't hard to do, I don't think there is much risk. But risk is a subjective thing also

All the moving parts are actually very simplistic and easily replaceable if they ever do need replacing. And with the lifetime guarantee that becomes a non issue to me. You do need too factor in that you are putting many more holes in something you are trying to maintain watertight. Other then a few horror stories I have seen on here, I feel it is more about your installers attention to detail then anything else. You can certainly get leaks around any penetrations so if they can make one watertight they should be able to make them all watertight.

So, if you opt for the in floor cleaner, ensure that your builder installs a way for you to completely bypass the system and possibly abandon it if necessary.

I would also suggest this. You never know what the future will bring and it would be a very beneficial to be able to switch to a conventional circulation system. I have heard a lot about the robots being the latest greatest technology. All I see is a suction side cleaner (with some minor improvements in debris pick up) that has the large hose replaced by a smaller cord (that still gets tangled) that now needs to go over the deck and plug into line voltage (pool, wet hands, Line voltage.... ) So when they actually come out with a true "Robot" that works off solar or batteries or both, and can get in and out of the pool on it own and empty the debris automatically, Then you can switch to that, and abandon the "Then" obsolete infloor pool cleaner

 

[guinness]

The IntelliCenter is Pentair's latest automation and removes the need for the bolt-on Screen Logic 2. I'd ditch the older IntelliTouch and get a bundled IntelliCenter system w/ IntelliChlor.

Pentair IntelliCenter i8PSIC60 Kit - Pool and Spa with Load Center and IC60

 

[silfa718]

Have both adults sit on the floor and hold a tape measure up to them to really see where the water will hit them with different depths.

Now lets talk about something VERY important! Depth-make sure when you are talking to the PB that you are both talking about WATER depth! Some people say depth and mean from the floor to the coping. When you do that you lose water depth as the water depth is only halfway up the water line tile. When that happens you could lose 3 to 4 inches of water.

That fire it is very neat over there!

Added to my morning email to the PB.

I was trying to cut the fireplace out, but the wife likes it.

 

[silfa718]

Unfortunately, I have never tried to heat the pool without running the cleaner. Up until a few weeks ago, I had to run the cleaner all the time, as my PB did not install a way to valve out the cleaning system. I came back after the fact and had to rework some of the plumbing to allow me to valve it so that I could bypass the cleaning system and run the return jets only. So, if you opt for the in floor cleaner, ensure that your builder installs a way for you to completely bypass the system and possibly abandon it if necessary.

It's too hot now to need the heater, but I cannot see how it wouldn't heat the pool more evenly. Adding the water at 12 locations across the bottom or 4 returns along the sides, I would have to think the 12 cleaning heads in the bottom of the pool would do better, since you are getting heated water at the bottom, and not trying to get the main drain to pull the heated water down. I doubt I will ever try to heat the pool without running the cleaner.



I also liked this idea. My wife has said several times to me, that she loves that we don't have to look at a robot in the pool, or mess with dragging it in/out. She said she looks at photos on our PB's Facebook page and sees ones with the robots in them and they just kill the beauty of the pool.

Regarding the moving parts, I'm not too sure how long before things start to wear, as my system is relatively new, ~7 months old, but from what I understand on the warranty, I have a lifetime warranty on the internals of the multi-port valve. So as long as I am willing to change them out, and they aren't hard to do, I don't think there is much risk. But risk is a subjective thing also.

Your design is looking great! Kim is correct on the water on the shelf heating up quickly. Just from the sunlight, I can tell a difference when I have my arms under the water on the shelf, and move them to the main pool. Shallow water will heat up faster than deeper water. Especially when it is 9-12" deep.

Kim's concern about the spa blocking the sight line into the pool is very valid. Our design is similar, in that the hot tub is the first thing you see out of the house, so it does block the sun deck/baja deck from view, and part of the main pool. Our kids are older, and while I am still concerned about them, not to the degree that I would be with a toddler. We have friends with very young'ins, 4-5 years old, and I do notice that we generally migrate around the pool so that we can see them better. So I would say, if you like the design that way, ensure that you have seating in an area where you can see the full pool, so that you don't have to stand up around the pool while they are in and you want to take a break from being in the water.

Apologies, I just really looked at your equipment list. I would look at changing out the glo-brite lights to a micro brite, or another that does not use a proprietary niche design. I have glo-brites, but I did not find this site, or hear the concerns about them, until after the niches were installed. While mine are doing fine now, the rumor has it that they only last a few years, and you are stuck with keeping them because of the proprietary niche.

I can't comment on the IntelliTouch, but I have the IntelliCenter and love it. That is supposed to be Pentair's flagship automation, but it has been somewhat buggy as of late, due to what I believe is their lack of understanding how pool owners actually want to use their pool, and what they think pool owners want. I would absolutely go with the IntelliCenter again though, even with the issues I've seen.

Another thing to remember is that every light or set of lights you want to control independently requires an additional power transformer and relay, so make sure you have a large enough controller for everything you want to do. Example, to control your pool/spa lights, sun shelf lights, and color bubblers independently of each other, would require 3 transformers,1 for each grouping, and 3 control relays. I am running an I8PS Intellicenter and that would almost max out my relays. I think I would have 1 left over. So you might want to consider the I10PS Intellicenter, if you want to control that much independently. Which I would if it were mine.

Sorry for the long winded post! Hope this helps!

--Jeff

Don't apologize for the long post, thanks for taking the time to write it.

Thanks for the insight on the mico brite lights.

 

[silfa718]

All the moving parts are actually very simplistic and easily replaceable if they ever do need replacing. And with the lifetime guarantee that becomes a non issue to me. You do need too factor in that you are putting many more holes in something you are trying to maintain watertight. Other then a few horror stories I have seen on here, I feel it is more about your installers attention to detail then anything else. You can certainly get leaks around any penetrations so if they can make one watertight they should be able to make them all watertight.


I would also suggest this. You never know what the future will bring and it would be a very beneficial to be able to switch to a conventional circulation system. I have heard a lot about the robots being the latest greatest technology. All I see is a suction side cleaner (with some minor improvements in debris pick up) that has the large hose replaced by a smaller cord (that still gets tangled) that now needs to go over the deck and plug into line voltage (pool, wet hands, Line voltage.... ) So when they actually come out with a true "Robot" that works off solar or batteries or both, and can get in and out of the pool on it own and empty the debris automatically, Then you can switch to that, and abandon the "Then" obsolete infloor pool cleaner

I like the idea of trying to future proof and leave options to change/upgrade easier.