New Construction Started - Willis, TX (north of Houston)

[Duffatola]

After a year of due diligence and research we finally broke ground. I'm a bit in arrears but here's the progress over the first 4 days:



6/2 - Dig Day 1

6/3 - Dig Day 2

6/4 - Steel (#5 for footing/#3 for footing "wrap-arounds), #4 everywhere else. 8" thick gunite for floor, 6" for footing, 12" for walls/bond beam.

6/6 - Stub-Outs

6/7 - Clean out/reshape trenches, floor and walls to ensure proper coverage of gunite.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Duff,

Looking good...

Thanks for the pics,

Jim R.

 

[Duffatola]

I've read that waterfall pumps provide more bang for the buck. I am planning to use a separate 3HP Intelliflo (011056) to push 3 - 3' Sheer Descents (6" lip) and 2 Colorvision bubblers (9" water on the sun shelf). I hope the resident SME @mas985 as well as others can supply some words of wisdom whether I the planned pump may not provide the desired effect. I'd like to project the sheers' water fall at least a couple of feet and the bubblers 8" above the water. TIA!


Each will be valved separately from the equipment pad.

 

[Duffatola]

@JoyfulNoise can you please advise why "It would be an unusual setup for a water feature to use the same sources." My pb is planning on the water feature pump pulling from the main drain/skimmer line. I read this on a post of yours. Tks.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Duff,

Water feature pumps should have their own source of water. You should never run two pumps from the same source.

Most pool builder add additional floor drains or sometimes wall drains.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Duffatola]

Please advise why it's better to have a dedicated suction line versus pulling from the main drain. Tks.

 

[Toxophilite]

@JoyfulNoise can you please advise why "It would be an unusual setup for a water feature to use the same sources." My pb is planning on the water feature pump pulling from the main drain/skimmer line. I read this on a post of yours. Tks.

Is it both pulling from the same drain or it tying into main line for pool? There is a dual suction drain pan, which connects both to one drain pan. That's how my feature pump gets water.

 

[Duffatola]

Duff,

Water feature pumps should have their own source of water. You should never run two pumps from the same source.

Most pool builder add additional floor drains or sometimes wall drains.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks, Jim. It seems to make sense in terms of two pumps fighting for the same resource, but I don't really understand completely. Can you please enlighten me?

 

[Duffatola]

Is it both pulling from the same drain or it tying into main line for pool? There is a dual suction drain pan, which connects both to one drain pan. That's how my feature pump gets water.

Per the PB: "Secondary suction is coming from the main drain."

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think this is a question for @JamesW or @mas985 . There are limitations on how much water a skimmer is designed to pull in as well as the suction pipe size having a maximum water velocity. With two 3HP pumps pulling on the same line, I would be worried that you would violate those limits unless the plumbing is carefully designed.

 

[1poolman1]

Are you asking about a skimmer vs main drain, or dedicated ports very low in the pool for a water feature?

If the latter, it is less likely that debris will be pulled into a dedicated line for a water feature that is on the side of a pool. Those system seldom have a filter on them. The small debris that can get through a pump can clog sheer descents, laminar jets, etc. The main drain is a part of the circulation system that keeps the water clean. If there is flow there, debris can be pulled in and cause problems for water features.

 

[JamesW]

The water feature pump should have its own set of main drains or an unblockable drain like a channel drain and a 4" suction.

For 9 feet of sheers with 20 GPM per linear foot, you want 180 gpm.

You also need enough for the bubblers.

For suction, you want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec. For returns, you want to keep the water velocity below 8 ft/sec.

Size.......6 ft/sec......8 ft/sec.
1.5"...........38...............51 gpm
2"..............63...............84 gpm
2.5............90.............119 gpm
3.0".........138............184 gpm
4.0"........238.............317 gpm

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https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/product-related/product-manuals/pool-and-spa-equipment/intellifloxf/IntelliFloXF_Variable_Speed_Pump_Installation_and_Users_Guide_English.pdf

IntelliFloXF VSF Pump

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Hazen-Williams Friction Loss Equation - calculating Head Loss in Water Pipes

Friction head loss (<i>ft_H2O per 100 ft pipe</i>) in water pipes can be estimated with the empirical Hazen-Williams equation.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

The main filtration pump should have at least 2 skimmers and maybe a separate set of main drains on a 3" line.

I would use the Intelliflo XF pump for both.

 

[JamesW]

Are you also going to have an infinity edge?

If yes, you need a separate suction for that as well at 4" line and four main drains or two channel drains or 2 unblockable drains for suction in the trough.

You should have a separate 2" line to each sheer.

You should have a 4" return for the infinity edge.

I would put a 520 sq.ft. cartridge filter on the line for the sheers.


520 sqft at 0.375 gpm per sqft is 195 gpm.

You can go to two filters if you want to stay below the 150 gpm rating.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/filters/clean-and-clear/clean-and-clear-plus/clean-and-clear-plus-guides-manuals/clean-and-clear-plus-install-guide-english.pdf

Clean & Clear® Plus Cartridge Filters

The Clean & Clear Plus filter delivers commercial-grade performance that keeps pools clean and clear, day in and day out. Find out where to buy here.

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[Toxophilite]

Per the PB: "Secondary suction is coming from the main drain."

Then, you may have this type drain, which matches one on your signature plan: A&A AVSC Dual Suction Pebble Top Channel Drain | Dark Blue | 571532

 

[Duffatola]

Then, you may have this type drain, which matches one on your signature plan: A&A AVSC Dual Suction Pebble Top Channel Drain | Dark Blue | 571532

Yes, A&A 571495 for the main, spa and negative edge.

 

[Duffatola]

Are you also going to have an infinity edge?

If yes, you need a separate suction for that as well at 4" line and four main drains or two channel drains or 2 unblockable drains for suction in the trough.

You should have a separate 2" line to each sheer.

You should have a 4" return for the infinity edge.

I would put a 520 sq.ft. cartridge filter on the line for the sheers.

View attachment 420739
520 sqft at 0.375 gpm per sqft is 195 gpm.

You can go to two filters if you want to stay below the 150 gpm rating.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/filters/clean-and-clear/clean-and-clear-plus/clean-and-clear-plus-guides-manuals/clean-and-clear-plus-install-guide-english.pdf

Clean & Clear® Plus Cartridge Filters

The Clean & Clear Plus filter delivers commercial-grade performance that keeps pools clean and clear, day in and day out. Find out where to buy here.

www.pentair.com

James W, thanks for the info. I have seen the charts and graphs you provided but they are just "pretty pictures" and I'm not smart enough to do the math. I provided a rendering, water feature piping plan and pump plumbing plan in the thread. There will be a negative edge and I'll have a 3 HP Intelliflo pump for it as well as another as the main pump which will also serve the spa. There will basically be three systems. The negative edge will have a 3" drain line and A&A Channel Drain and main pump will have two 3" drain lines (main and spa) and two A&A Channel Drains (main and spa). There are also two skimmers. I had planned on a 2.5" dedicated wall drain for the 3 HP Intelliflow water feature pump but the PB has advised they'll pull from the main drain. The PM is scheduled out today and I am going to request an independent water feature drain line as well as subbing XF pumps. Regarding filters, I'll have one CCP520 for the pool as well as a CCP320 for the negative edge.

 

[JamesW]

I had planned on a 2.5" dedicated wall drain for the 3 HP Intelliflow water feature pump but the PB has advised they'll pull from the main drain.

I would do a 4" line on a separate main drain.

The sheers will take up to about 150 gpm or 180 gpm at full power.

You can probably get good action at lower flow, but you should retain the capacity to go as high as possible.

I don't think that the bubblers will require a filter, so you can use a CCP520 for the sheers to allow for 150 GPM to the sheers and branch off the bubblers before the filter.

The bubblers will require 20 GPM each or a total of 40 GPM.

To run the sheers and bubblers at full power, you will need about 220 GPM.

The maximum flow that you could probably get from the XF is about 200 GPM under ideal conditions.

If we allow for 150 GPM for the sheers and 40 GPM for the bubblers, that makes 190 GPM, which is probably full power when pushing through the filter.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/water-features/colorvision-bubbler/colorvision-bubbler-with-separately-sold-globrite-led-lights-brochure-english.pdf

Regarding filters, I'll have one CCP520 for the pool as well as a CCP320 for the negative edge.

I would use a CCP520 on the sheers and probably none on the infinity edge.

If you have a 25 foot long weir wall, then the amount of flow depends on the height you want to get over the weir.

If we assume 5 GPM per linear foot of weir, that comes to 125 GPM.

If we want 3/8" of lift, that comes to 207 GPM.

I would do a 4" suction and return line for the infinity edge with no filter.

 

[JamesW]

The XF pumps are better pumps and they take a 3" fitting to the outside of the union, which is much better than the 2" threaded fitting for the regular Intelliflo with no union.

You need a check valve for the Infinity edge line.

I would do (2) 2.5" x 3" Jandy check valves after the pump (not in front of the pump).

I would do a 2.5" x 3" Jandy NeverLube two-way valve before the pump for service.

 

[JamesW]

I am planning to use a separate 3HP Intelliflo (011056) to push 3 - 3' Sheer Descents (6" lip) and 2 Colorvision bubblers (9" water on the sun shelf).

This shows (3) 24" sheers.

 

[JamesW]

The CCP shows 13 psi at 150 GPM, which is 30 feet of head loss.

Assuming 100 feet of 4" PVC for the suction and return, that's 2.18 feet of head loss for the suction and 2.18 for the return for a total of 4.37 feet of head loss.

So, about 35 of head loss for the filter and plumbing.

To hit 190 GPM, you will need to run the pump at about 3,350 RPM to 3,450 RPM.