Debating the turnover is a myth belief

[AusPhil]

Yes i'm in questioning mode again ... that nuisance newbie from down under. I have tried hard to keep this impersonal as these statements are repeated by many.
A number of statements that get repeated, especially to new members who will not have the knowledge yet to correctly interpret them.

"Turnover is a myth"
"You don't need to turn over your pool each day"
"Chemicals keep your pool clean"
"you only need to run your pump to mix the chemicals"
"run your pump/filter constantly whilst doing a slam"


There are some more but those 5 can kick start the discussion at least...

Let's start with
"Chemicals keep your pool clean"
Pedantically chemicals and proper TFP chemical balance will essentially keep you pool free of Algae and sanitised, cannot agree more. Twelve months of sparking clear water has clearly shown the benefit following the process.

However it will do absolutely nothing for particles floating in your water. The dust and other crud that comes out of the sky from wind and rain and is often only visible of a night in a beam of light, just like dust in a beam of sunlight
Cleaning (filtering) particles out of your pool water is the job of that filter you install "to keep your water clean"
With my own AGP having gone from the seriously undersized oem supplied sand filter to a 21" sand filter to a seriously oversized 32" sand filter it's been quite obvious that the period of time to clear those fine particles has decreased. Most of my small particles is fine red dust.
So circulation and filtration matter.

"You don't need to turn over your pool each day"
Hang on, if filtering matters and the use of large filters by people indicates that it does then how do we get all those little particles from the pool to the filter????
We circulate a percentage of water over the filter media everyday.
I read somewhere in one of the deep end posts i think that depending just on how the water flows around your pool (circulation) will determine just how much water per "turnover" will pass over/through your filter media.
The drains/skimmers are effectively point sources from a circulation viewpoint and if during one complete turnover cycle you only effectively filter 50% of the volume of water then you need multiple turnovers to filter out suspended particulates.
That quoted % is just a number and could be much higher or even much lower if you have circulation shortcuts in your pool.

Is turnover a myth? ......... maybe when promoted as a "you turn your water over twice a day" bog standard advice but seriously it is important to actually cleaning your water ...... stop i said cleaning not sanitising.

"you only need to run your pump to mix the chemicals" .... i read this only today, it's an often said line and it's valid from a chemical, sanitising viewpoint.
But it does NOTHING to help filtering (cleansing) particulates out of your beautifully sanitised water.

"run your filter constantly whilst doing a slam"
I know why this is said but doesn't it sort of contradict nearly all the other turnover statements at the very core.

I love TFP, i'm convinced that it has given me sparkling clean water even when i haven't quite done it by the book (apart from testing)
I started my AGP vinyl pool on a diet of Tri-Chlor tablets till CYA came up and only then switched to bleach and now to SWCG but with the SWCG i run constantly at the upper level of the range and never worry if it goes over.
My pump runs about 9hrs a day during the day generally consuming the solar power from the 6kw solar system on the roof so run time doesn't worry me .... i drop this to a couple of hours at midday during winter.

I am a huge consumer of data from posts and i have read a fair percentage of threads going back a few years and it's interesting when you read so much in a shortened time frame that you start to see how the advice matures and changes over time but you also see how some things become ingrained and repeated without question.

One parting thought if you run your pump/filter 24x7 for the purpose of skimming your surface are you also not be default cleansing particulates via water turnover through your filter yet i've then seen it claimed in the same post that turnover is a myth .... can you truly have it both ways.

Flame suit is on
cheers
Phil

 

[mknauss]

http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Pool-Efficiency/FAU-FPL-NSPI_1984_study-efficiency_of_circulation_systems.pdf

Have you read the study above?

It is true, the filter is used to remove stuff that falls into the pool. If your pool has a continuous load of dust, etc falling into the pool, then you will need to run your system most of the time to clear it. Or, if the stuff is dirt, it will fall to the floor of the pool as it is more dense and a robot cleaner will very efficiently remove it.

As far as the SLAM recommendation. Circulation does assist in keeping all the pool areas in contact with SLAM level FC to kill algae. That is different than normal operation where you do not have algae and just have maintenance level FC to keep that way.

 

[JJ_Tex]

You are right to think of sanitizing/sanitising and filtering as different functions because they absolutely are.

The key point that I take away from TFP methods is that sanitizing of the water is emphasized much more than filtering. I've seen many new posters come in with misconceptions around the filter killing algae, pump run time and turnover being the key, etc. The quotes that you mention above are meant to be simple and easy to understand, especially when you have new posters with pool problems who are many times getting a mix advice from neighbors, pool store, etc.

 

[mas985]

One thing to keep in mind is that particles that remain suspended in water are generally too small (<2 microns) to be filtered out the water with a standard pool filter. Larger particles will eventually sink to the pool floor which can then be removed by a pool cleaner. This is far more efficient energy wise than trying to filter these temporarily suspended particles using multiple turnovers since each turnover only filters about 64% of the water.

 

[AusPhil]

http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Pool-Efficiency/FAU-FPL-NSPI_1984_study-efficiency_of_circulation_systems.pdf

Have you read the study above?

It is true, the filter is used to remove stuff that falls into the pool. If your pool has a continuous load of dust, etc falling into the pool, then you will need to run your system most of the time to clear it. Or, if the stuff is dirt, it will fall to the floor of the pool as it is more dense and a robot cleaner will very efficiently remove it.

As far as the SLAM recommendation. Circulation does assist in keeping all the pool areas in contact with SLAM level FC to kill algae. That is different than normal operation where you do not have algae and just have maintenance level FC to keep that way.

Marty,
Thanks for the link, no i had not seen that one and i will read it in full tonight
I do appreciate that not all pools have a need for high levels of circulation, super obvious in it's own right over winter with a cover on.
I see posts on the forum all the time about pollens, dust and general crud falling into pools and yet many times the OP get's told that it's chemicals that clean things and pump run time doesn't matter to much when in fact for those circumstances it's exactly what they should consider. I know the forum also promotes robots and has a high usage rate but that's not universal.

You are right to think of sanitizing/sanitising and filtering as different functions because they absolutely are.

The key point that I take away from TFP methods is that sanitizing of the water is emphasized much more than filtering. I've seen many new posters come in with misconceptions around the filter killing algae, pump run time and turnover being the key, etc. The quotes that you mention above are meant to be simple and easy to understand, especially when you have new posters with pool problems who are many times getting a mix advice from neighbors, pool store, etc.

JJ
I guess in some ways you have hit the nail on the head with the statement that Sanitising is emphasised more then filtering .... and rightly so in a lot of cases, especially when people think the filter is the key.
maybe there is a balance to be had that really pushes the need to sanitise first, filter second. no matter what we really cant do one without the other

One thing to keep in mind is that particles that remain suspended in water are generally too small (<2 microns) to be filtered out the water with a standard pool filter. Larger particles will eventually sink to the pool floor which can then be removed by a pool cleaner. This is far more efficient energy wise than trying to filter these temporarily suspended particles using multiple turnovers since each turnover only filters about 64% of the water.

Hey Mark,
Knew i had seen a percentage mentioned before. The particulate matter could also be too light or be just bouyant enough to float in the stirred up water.

All: the get that there are options such as robots to vacuum up the particulate matter from the floor of the pool but it seems a lot of the time that the standard lines get regurgitated regardless of the individual pool, pool owner and circumstance being asked about.
One thing that seems universally agreed is that pools have there own personalities from a chemical and circulation perspectives and that the forum needs to deal with the lowest common denominator when providing advice

Sorry i don't have the answer just noting my observations

 

[Jimrahbe]

Phil,

I think you miss the whole point.. We are not trying to tell anyone that they can't run their filter for as long as they want... We are just trying to tell them that they don't have to run the filter based on the turnover myth.. If you have dust problems, and you believe running the filter longer will help remove the dust, then that is a perfect reason for you to run your pump for however long you want. But the length of time you need to run your pump, does not determine the length of time everyone else needs to run their pump. What we don't like about the turnover myth is that is one size fits all, rather than letting the individual pool owner run his pool based upon what they are trying to accomplish. There are many reasons to run a pump, but none of them include turnovers..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[AusPhil]

Phil,

I think you miss the whole point.. We are not trying to tell anyone that they can't run their filter for as long as they want... We are just trying to tell them that they don't have to run the filter based on the turnover myth.. If you have dust problems, and you believe running the filter longer will help remove the dust, then that is a perfect reason for you to run your pump for however long you want. But the length of time you need to run your pump, does not determine the length of time everyone else needs to run their pump. What we don't like about the turnover myth is that is one size fits all, rather than letting the individual pool owner run his pool based upon what they are trying to accomplish. There are many reasons to run a pump, but none of them include turnovers..

Thanks,
Jim R.

Hi Jim,

Respectfully i have that point firmly in my head and I do get the point that the forum in general is trying to give common simplified advice to a whole range of people .
It's why i shoved this down in the agree to disagree forum.

The forum has many respected members that do at times do appear to tell people what they can't do.... it is exactly that the drove this post.

I would respectfully also argue from a simplified common understanding that the concept of turnover provides to people that the terminology should/could be better explained rather than just shoved in the bin as it seems to be done at times.

I'm trying to stay high level and not quote threads etc

Cheers
Phil

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

I am a huge consumer of data from posts and i have read a fair percentage of threads going back a few years and it's interesting when you read so much in a shortened time frame that you start to see how the advice matures and changes over time but you also see how some things become ingrained and repeated without question.

This is key. People do tend to repeat what they see posted by experts or even so-called "experts." Not just here on TFP, but on pretty much every forum I'm on - and even in real life outside of forums. Things become "general knowledge" or "common wisdom" by virtue of repetition. It is important to think and comprehend and make one's own decisions based on knowledge and understanding thereof.

 

[Newdude]

Phil,

I think you miss the whole point.. We are not trying to tell anyone that they can't run their filter for as long as they want... We are just trying to tell them that they don't have to run the filter based on the turnover myth

Phil, @Jimrahbe and myself are perfect examples for this discussion. We both run 24/7 and achieve the daily turnover. I just roughly calculated mine and it was 40k gallons a day. But the key is that we aren’t doing it for the sake of being told that we need to achieve the turnover. Jim and I prefer the slow and low method of running the SWG, which just happens to filter the water 24/7 also. Filtering doesn’t necessarily help after a given amount of time, but it certainly doesn’t hurt anything either. My family also prefers the look of the running water. So we achieve turnover for reasons that work for us, not because the pool industry thought it was necessary a few decades ago and is still telling that story today.

 

[duraleigh]

Chlorine is used to sanitize your water and keep algae at bay. Filtration is used to clear physical debris from your pool and keep it clear.

It is really no more complicated than that.

If you have algae or other organic growth, you are not using enough chlorine. If your pool is dirty, you are not using enough filtration (and physical brushing)

Turnover rates are not relevant if you follow this common sense approach to your pool.

It is easy enough to misconstrue some of what is said on TFP and overthink your pool water management.............don't do that. Adhere to the two principles in the first two sentences above and your pool will remain crystal clear

 

[ajw22]

I would respectfully also argue from a simplified common understanding that the concept of turnover provides to people that the terminology should/could be better explained rather than just shoved in the bin as it seems to be done at times.

The question has been asked and answered many times that a search on “pool turnover” would find.

On the forum a headline answer is often given without a link to the Pool School articles that give a more nuanced in depth answer.

Feel free to write up a better explanation then what is already in PS and I will see about creating a TFPWiki article on the topic.

 

[Arizonarob]

Phil, thanks for bringing up topics you feel can/should be discussed further to provide better understanding across the site

I would respectfully also argue from a simplified common understanding that the concept of turnover provides to people that the terminology should/could be better explained rather than just shoved in the bin as it seems to be done at times.

I can completely understand where you’re coming from, and I agree. Here at TFP we strive to break people free from the misconceptions that have been shoved down their throats by pool stores, “pool guys”, neighbors, etc. I know sometimes we use blanket statements and fail to explain the “Why” it needs to be done a particular way. (I for one am a huge fan of the why’s. Don’t just tell me, but tell me why it needs to be done a certain way.)

When new folks show up to the site filled with questions and are overwhelmed by the whole process, we try to keep it as simple as possible for them to understand. Then as time goes on, and they ask further questions, we then (at least I do) dive into further explanation on various topics.
We have a team of people that work tirelessly behind the scenes (See Wiki articles) to work on writing and re-writing articles to make topics as clear and precise as possible for those that take the time to better understand their pool.

In the end, we’re all here to learn from each other and apply what we’ve learned to making our pools safe to enjoy on a daily basis.

~Rob

 

[AusPhil]

Phil, @Jimrahbe and myself are perfect examples for this discussion. We both run 24/7 and achieve the daily turnover. I just roughly calculated mine and it was 40k gallons a day. But the key is that we aren’t doing it for the sake of being told that we need to achieve the turnover. Jim and I prefer the slow and low method of running the SWG, which just happens to filter the water 24/7 also. Filtering doesn’t necessarily help after a given amount of time, but it certainly doesn’t hurt anything either. My family also prefers the look of the running water. So we achieve turnover for reasons that work for us, not because the pool industry thought it was necessary a few decades ago and is still telling that story today.

low and slow no doubt works for many and maybe as pool volume increases it could even be fully appropriate. Newdude you have touched on what i'm getting at that this is ideally done on an individual basis and need .
Mas quoted 64% as the amount of water that passes over the filter media for each theoretical turnover period leaving a 1/3 of your water with filterable particulate matter still in suspension.
I know it is not as simple as that and i have never bought into the x number of turnovers required but to effectively downplay filtering when the same people promote the largest possible filter should be used seems a little incongruous.
Maybe just maybe the concept of moving y percentage of your water over your filter media is actually a really good thing and as much as the term is hated the use of "turnover" simplifies the whole concept to new pool owner.......

 

[AusPhil]

Chlorine is used to sanitize your water and keep algae at bay. Filtration is used to clear physical debris from your pool and keep it clear.

It is really no more complicated than that.

If you have algae or other organic growth, you are not using enough chlorine. If your pool is dirty, you are not using enough filtration (and physical brushing)

Turnover rates are not relevant if you follow this common sense approach to your pool.

It is easy enough to misconstrue some of what is said on TFP and overthink your pool water management.............don't do that. Adhere to the two principles in the first two sentences above and your pool will remain crystal clear

Hi Dave,
I would like to think i'm not over thinking my personal pool water management..... this is not about my personal setup and i really should have left that out of the original post me thinks.
You have personally just done what i'm talking about

Quote "If your pool is dirty, you are not using enough filtration (and physical brushing)"
Quote "Turnover rates are not relevant if you follow this common sense approach to your pool"

Those two are directly from above.
You can't have filtration without water moving over your filter media and especially if you are dealing with suspended particulate matter and all pools will have some.
Each of those lines, statements are in themselves valid and true in general but combine them and if you want to get bettering filtering then you likely need to move more water over your filter media ..... isn't that "turnover"

 

[AusPhil]

The question has been asked and answered many times that a search on “pool turnover” would find.

On the forum a headline answer is often given without a link to the Pool School articles that give a more nuanced in depth answer.

Feel free to write up a better explanation then what is already in PS and I will see about creating a TFPWiki article on the topic.

Hi Allen,
I'll take you up on that suggestion, it may not be better but maybe we can expand things whilst still keeping the essence that pump run times are made up of many criteria of which filtering your water is just one of them.
If it's not better then it's not published but i at least need to put my money on the table and try.

Cheers
Phil

 

[AusPhil]

Phil, thanks for bringing up topics you feel can/should be discussed further to provide better understanding across the site

I can completely understand where you’re coming from, and I agree. Here at TFP we strive to break people free from the misconceptions that have been shoved down their throats by pool stores, “pool guys”, neighbors, etc. I know sometimes we use blanket statements and fail to explain the “Why” it needs to be done a particular way. (I for one am a huge fan of the why’s. Don’t just tell me, but tell me why it needs to be done a certain way.)

When new folks show up to the site filled with questions and are overwhelmed by the whole process, we try to keep it as simple as possible for them to understand. Then as time goes on, and they ask further questions, we then (at least I do) dive into further explanation on various topics.
We have a team of people that work tirelessly behind the scenes (See Wiki articles) to work on writing and re-writing articles to make topics as clear and precise as possible for those that take the time to better understand their pool.

In the end, we’re all here to learn from each other and apply what we’ve learned to making our pools safe to enjoy on a daily basis.

~Rob

Hi Rob,
Guess we will need to have a virtual beer together consider the the distance we need to travel to share one....

I personally love the why as well, however my work and life experience says that we are likely in a smaller minority and that a lot of folks just want the "how" and the step by step instructions. we see it all the time with "my pool is green what do i do" posts. These people don't want (but deserve) a lecture on test kits and just how bad the local pool shop testing is ..... but that is what we do to them immediately .... i've done it myself now as well.

I suspect that people don't even realise they are doing it, hence this post to raise awareness and in thinking more on this on an individual thread response read by an original poster it probable doesn't even register.

Anyway I think i have at least started to achieve a little of the original intent of the post and that was to get people to think about statements.



cheers
Phil

 

[mas985]

You can't have filtration without water moving over your filter media and especially if you are dealing with suspended particulate matter and all pools will have some.
Each of those lines, statements are in themselves valid and true in general but combine them and if you want to get bettering filtering then you likely need to move more water over your filter media ..... isn't that "turnover"

Filtering an equivalent pool volume worth of water is a turnover. The word turnover is not the myth. The myth widely disseminated throughout the internet is that "pools require 1-2 turnovers per day". The word itself is valid but the generalization is not. Some pools may require only 0.1 turnovers others far more than 2. There is just no way to make a general recommendation to all pool owners based upon the concept of a turnover. A better generalization is to say "run the pump as long as it takes to make the pool as clean as you would like it". But the primary concept we are trying to get across is that sanitation is mandatory, filtration is not. These two things are not the same nor really related all that much. In fact, it is possible to achieve proper sanitation without any filtering.

 

[ajw22]

Hi Allen,
I'll take you up on that suggestion, it may not be better but maybe we can expand things whilst still keeping the essence that pump run times are made up of many criteria of which filtering your water is just one of them.
If it's not better then it's not published but i at least need to put my money on the table and try.

Cheers
Phil

Let's go for it. I think the focus should be Pool Turnover - Facts and Myths. A lot can be distilled from this thread and I may take a cut at it when I have time.

 

[AusPhil]

Filtering an equivalent pool volume worth of water is a turnover. The word turnover is not the myth. The myth widely disseminated throughout the internet is that "pools require 1-2 turnovers per day". The word itself is valid but the generalization is not. Some pools may require only 0.1 turnovers others far more than 2. There is just no way to make a general recommendation to all pool owners based upon the concept of a turnover. A better generalization is to say "run the pump as long as it takes to make the pool as clean as you would like it". But the primary concept we are trying to get across is that sanitation is mandatory, filtration is not. These two things are not the same nor really related all that much. In fact, it is possible to achieve proper sanitation without any filtering.

Hi Mark,
strangley to me at least you have successfully argued both sides of my view.......
Pedantically the wide spread advice all over the internet is that you require 1-2 turnovers is a general easy to understand concept that is not really that far from a practical generalization that could be applied to 80% of pools to provide good filtration support.
Whilst your "run the pump as long as needed to filter the water to your requirements" may be the absolute correct view it is not an easy to understand "what to do" statement.

IE......
If you turnover your pool water once, then industry studies have shown 64% of your pool water will have gone through your filter. This will generally remove suspended particles from your water. Filtration is not the answer to sanitation though. To keep your water sanitized you MUST use chlorine, TFP promotes the use of Liquid Chlorine and SWCG as preferred sources.
Your pump run time should be determined firstly by your sanitation requirements, SWCG's may require longer times than adding liquid chlorine. After this requirement is met then your filtration requirements should be determined. This may be met already by your pump run times for sanitation.

yep 100% agree you can sanitise without filtering just as you can filter with sanitising ... well you can till the filter is blocked by algae
My post is that in real life and practical pools pool owners require both sides, sanitation and filtration.

 

[AusPhil]

Let's go for it. I think the focus should be Pool Turnover - Facts and Myths. A lot can be distilled from this thread and I may take a cut at it when I have time.

Agree on the focus, lets see what we can achieve.