Blank slate/Pool build in Maryland

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Ok so my thoughts from an individual who does automation for part of my living. lol

I have HAI in my home. I also have a vera for customers who don't want to go full HAI.

My whole home is controlled by HAI and vera. my lighting is all zwave. stats are HAI. cameras are ever focus through HAI. the whole interface is their apps and in my home 100% is programmed in iRule. I was so adamant about having iRule control everything since it was our go to at the time for dedicated theaters and larger home installs.

I went with a separate pool system. i'm so glad i did. I just wanted it in it's own echosytem. i knew i didn't want HAI or vera to do these huge triggers for turn pump on the speed with these lights but also play this music and turn these outside lights on. i just wanted the pool to be on it's own so it can be troubled shot easier.

again just me, but i make a partial living off automation and still didn't go that route and i already have the full backbone to make it happen. down the road will i maybe add the pentair module to vera in conjunction with screen logic. maybe but each day it's less and less cause screen logic does what it does and it does it very well.

jim

ps ur pad looks awesome man!
 
jimim said:
Ok so my thoughts from an individual who does automation for part of my living. lol

I have HAI in my home. I also have a vera for customers who don't want to go full HAI.

My whole home is controlled by HAI and vera. my lighting is all zwave. stats are HAI. cameras are ever focus through HAI. the whole interface is their apps and in my home 100% is programmed in iRule. I was so adamant about having iRule control everything since it was our go to at the time for dedicated theaters and larger home installs.

I went with a separate pool system. i'm so glad i did. I just wanted it in it's own echosytem. i knew i didn't want HAI or vera to do these huge triggers for turn pump on the speed with these lights but also play this music and turn these outside lights on. i just wanted the pool to be on it's own so it can be troubled shot easier.

again just me, but i make a partial living off automation and still didn't go that route and i already have the full backbone to make it happen. down the road will i maybe add the pentair module to vera in conjunction with screen logic. maybe but each day it's less and less cause screen logic does what it does and it does it very well.

jim

ps ur pad looks awesome man!
Click to expand...

Great post.., I really prefer the pool as a stand alone.
 
Captchaos said:
Yes I am. I've been struggling with the whole variable speed and automation thing for awhile now and it has ramped up even more lately.

Variable Speed VS Single Speed
The electrician told me the other day that "most people just run their pumps 24x7" and when I asked the builder he said that was correct. I asked if that was just during startup and his response was that it is to run 24x7 "forever." I've been enlightened here at TFP but I'm wondering if I should follow his advice on startup to avoid any issues. Based on my research, a single speed 2HP pump draws about 2000-2200 watts. Running it 24x7 would be $200-250/month in electricty at 13.3 cents per kWh. I see many reporting their variable speed pump is drawing 150 watts at 1100-1200 RPM so the savings is significant. Paired with the $400 rebate from my electric company, a variable speed pump will pay for itself ($1000 - $400 = $600 net) in approximately 4-5 months based on 24x7 run times. However, it seems that is unnecessary and muddies things up a bit. If I run it 6 hours per day, that lengthens the payback time a lot. This is hard because I have no idea how the pool responds to longer or shorter run times since it isn't open yet. Also, I will probably not have a warranty if I install it myself.

As a reminder, the pool builder quoted $1200 to upgrade to a Jandy variable speed pump. In hindsight I should have asked if that included any sort of automation. I did today and haven't received a response yet. The $1200 number makes more sense if it included basic automation. I am not sure if that price included the $400 electric company rebate as that applies to both professionally and self-installed variable speed pumps. Local HVAC companies like to quote post-rebate prices in this area.

Pool Automation
Two options here:
1. Zwave automation using my existing Vera Edge. Aeon makes a "heavy duty" (40 amp) Zwave switch that I could use to turn the pumps on or off.

Pros​


  • [*=1]Scheduling using Vera scenes. Run for 2 hours 10-12, 2 hours 2-4, 2 hours 4-6, etc. Turn the lights on blue, etc.
    [*=1]Alexa-integration. Anyone in the house (kids and wife) can tell Alexa to turn on the waterfall or lights (including specific colors by power toggling, I think?). Create rules in the Vera to turn the 1HP waterfall pump off after 2 hours to reduce energy consumption.
    [*=1]Energy Usage Monitoring. Monitor energy usage and plot it on a graph. (See how much I am losing with my single speed pump in efficiency)
    [*=1]Remote Access. Remotely check on status when on vacation or away from home, etc.
    [*=1]Cheaper. $90 per heavy duty module (pumps). About $30 per regular switch (lights).

Cons
​


  • [*=1]Variable speed pump functions are limited compared to Jandy automation and somewhat duplicated because the VSP will have some sort of controller for programming. (Energy usage, scheduling, other stuff?)
    [*=1]More complicated to control and maybe more complicated to setup scenes vs. a Jandy automation setup using a single iOS app?

2. Jandy Control (Basic)

Pros
​


  • [*=1]Scheduling and complete control of functions with like-branded equipment.
    [*=1]Energy usage monitoring.
    [*=1]Remote access.

Cons
​


  • [*=1]No warranty as I will install it myself.
    [*=1]No Alexa-integration (more complicated for family members to use).
    [*=1]There may be no option to turn off something like the waterfall pump after two hours to save energy (kids will leave it on all day long).
    [*=1]Potentially complicated set up/Confusing components. It's unclear to me exactly what I will need in terms of components.
    [*=1]More expensive. $450+ $709+


​
As you can see, no shortage of thoughts on this subject! :eek:
Click to expand...

I don't think you are understanding what the Jandy automation provides you. Your ZWave system will kill the power when it is scheduled to be off. That's about it. The Jandy system will reduce/increase motor speed along with controlling other devices and also I think that device also will control automatic valves as well (not sure though). It also has temp settings (pool and air), light control, etc. It is way more than just on and off.

It does make a difference if you get the pump or not with the automation. Some of the Jandy pumps include a screen to program them independent of an automation system. If you have automation, they do not include the screen. When I got my rebate, only the one without the screen (model number ends in "aut") was on the $400 rebate list. I doubt your builder included the $400 rebate in his price that would be a bonus. I am also sure he was not including any automation in that $1200 price. That is about what I was quoted to swap the single speed for a VSP.

To keep your pump on 24x7 at full speed is ridiculous and I really hope you are not planning on taking that advice. My experience is that builders know next to nothing about pool water chemistry.
 
jimim said:
Ok so my thoughts from an individual who does automation for part of my living. lol

I have HAI in my home. I also have a vera for customers who don't want to go full HAI.

My whole home is controlled by HAI and vera. my lighting is all zwave. stats are HAI. cameras are ever focus through HAI. the whole interface is their apps and in my home 100% is programmed in iRule. I was so adamant about having iRule control everything since it was our go to at the time for dedicated theaters and larger home installs.

I went with a separate pool system. i'm so glad i did. I just wanted it in it's own echosytem. i knew i didn't want HAI or vera to do these huge triggers for turn pump on the speed with these lights but also play this music and turn these outside lights on. i just wanted the pool to be on it's own so it can be troubled shot easier.

again just me, but i make a partial living off automation and still didn't go that route and i already have the full backbone to make it happen. down the road will i maybe add the pentair module to vera in conjunction with screen logic. maybe but each day it's less and less cause screen logic does what it does and it does it very well.

jim

ps ur pad looks awesome man!
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your perspective. I still have this feeling that Pentair automation is better than Jandy automation. The reviews on the Jandy stuff often aren't so great, but ScreenLogic seems to be very highly regarded here.

I don't have a spa, the water feature is on its own pump and switch, I don't have a heater, and I don't have a SWCG, so other than controlling speed and viewing water temp, I'm not sure what else I gain from spending a lot more on the Jandy stuff versus some basic scenes in Vera using the Zwave switches. When I upgrade to a variable speed pump, I will also have the scheduling, speed control, etc. covered there with whatever controller the pump comes with built in.
 
PoolGate said:
I don't think you are understanding what the Jandy automation provides you. Your ZWave system will kill the power when it is scheduled to be off. That's about it. The Jandy system will reduce/increase motor speed along with controlling other devices and also I think that device also will control automatic valves as well (not sure though). It also has temp settings (pool and air), light control, etc. It is way more than just on and off.

It does make a difference if you get the pump or not with the automation. Some of the Jandy pumps include a screen to program them independent of an automation system. If you have automation, they do not include the screen. When I got my rebate, only the one without the screen (model number ends in "aut") was on the $400 rebate list. I doubt your builder included the $400 rebate in his price that would be a bonus. I am also sure he was not including any automation in that $1200 price. That is about what I was quoted to swap the single speed for a VSP.

To keep your pump on 24x7 at full speed is ridiculous and I really hope you are not planning on taking that advice. My experience is that builders know next to nothing about pool water chemistry.
Click to expand...

I think I have a pretty good handle on what I gain using Jandy automation, I'm just not sure that it is worth the cost differential as I mentioned above due to the fact that my pool configuration is pretty basic.

I did verify that the $400 rebate should include both the pump with a built in controller and the one without as both models are listed.

Thanks for the additional info on the pump run times. My old above ground pool had a SWCG and I ran the pump 6 hours and didn't have much of an issue at all keeping it clean or clear. I will experiment with run times, especially if I keep the single speed pump for some time period.
 
It's been awhile since there was any major progress. We had some rain delays on the first round of grading, but that happened yesterday which made a big difference visually and being able to walk in the backyard.

Tile and coping installation is going on now. It looks like they installed some base layer (see it being installed in the first picture) under the coping and tile which I haven't seen before. A quick Google search didn't yield any results either. I was wondering how they were going to keep the surface completely smooth.


 
It looks like they installed some base layer (see it being installed in the first picture) under the coping and tile which I haven't seen before.
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hmmm...me either. Hopefully somebody will chime in with a guess as to what that is. We are supposed to have coping and tile starting tomorrow so I'll be on the lookout for anything similar.
 
They removed them just before they installed the tile. I guess it was just to keep the coping level?

Regardless, all finished today and we are very happy with the outcome. We went back and forth on tile for a long time and finally just picked one. We want a natural look and we think it came out great. It’s very hard to tell how great it looks in pictures. I wasn’t super enthused about it watching through the security camera or the pictures my wife sent but in person it really looks great. The tile matches the tumbled bluestone extremely well.

The accent tiles look funny without plaster.






 
NICE! That is a major step forward. LOL on not liking it on the remote pics but seeing it in real life made the difference. Such is my life :roll: I don't get to see all of these pretty pools in person but one day I might get to see some of them! POOL HOP!

Yeah the markers do kind of stick out there now. Just wait until you see plaster on them! Do you have a time line for it?

Kim:kim:
 
The next round of grading that was canceled yesterday due to the tile and coping is going on now. We had five small truckloads of dirt delivered two weeks ago and we were thinking we would need more. Based on what has been spread today, I am not sure that we will need that much more, it is filling in nicely.

Waterfall will be early next week. Patio will be after that, then plaster. We haven't really gotten any strict timelines on anything thus far as our builder told me he is building 8 pools at once. We've gotten a "We aim to be swimming by Memorial Day" from the beginning so we're hoping that holds. It seems like it should at this point, but we shall see. I suspect he is managing everything as best he can and he does set reasonable expectations. It is busy season in our area for pool builders. We know some people who called a company (that I called last year and never bothered to call me back...) and were told the earliest someone could come even for an estimate was October!

 

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nice. just checking in. bluestone is my favorite. maybe it's cause we are surrounded by it where I live. I'm right in the heart of PA bluestone country. it's everywhere here. looks really good! when is plaster?
 
kimkats said:
Oh that dirt does look like it might be just about enough!!! Here is hoping!

Kim:kim:
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Unfortunately it isn't! It looks like enough from overhead but once you're onsite and walking in it, no way! There won't be enough room for the patio so more definitely needs to come in. This matches what the pool builder told me too, I was just hoping we already had enough onsite. The grade is steeper than it looks, and further, my father-in-law (a lifetime commercial brick mason) pointed out that he thinks the near side of the pool bond beam is lower than the far side. He thinks it might only be 1/2-3/8 of an inch but of course now that's all I see when I look at it. It looked fine to me before, thanks a lot! :)

- - - Updated - - -

PoolGate said:
Plaster for us was very last after deck. They usually want to fill the pool immediately after plaster so all the messy work needs to be done.
Click to expand...

Yeah my comment was very optimistic of having plaster next week. Our builder did say that the waterfall will happen this weekend or early next week (we always expect the later timeline) and then decking. After that will be plaster so probably realistically two weeks for plaster? We'll see. It's gotten hot now so we're getting pretty antsy. I am doing the fence myself, and we're doing the landscaping--two tasks I had really hoped to finish in April, not only to avoid the hot summer days but to spend more time IN the pool!
 
kristmas said:
The coping turned out great! I love the tile. We also went really neutral on ours.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I really wish I could show how nice it looks in pictures for others because we had such a problem picking. I guess part of that was because we couldn't tell in other pictures we found online either. It's also killing me that the pool is so dirty, I'm restraining myself from cleaning it up because I know it's just going to get dirty again. It just looked so nice when they first shot the gunite!

Sending the drone up shortly, we'll see if I can capture things a little better.
 

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