I just added about 64oz of MA since that's all I had left and did about 13oz of CYA since the total pH change of that is lower than the 78oz of MA called for. I've gone through two and a half gallons of MA in a week. How it's not an acid pool I'll never know.
Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.
- Thread starter christianday
- Start date
Is there some magic trick to reducing TA that 42oz MA would not accomplish? I can't believe it's a week later and I already have to get more. I always take the water sample 18" down and 18" from the edge, and I turned the swim jets off at least ten minutes before I took the sample. Are we sure aeration doesn't at least stabilize TA? I know it says it doesn't raise it but I just don't see how it could still be 80 after all that MA. Now with 64oz of MA and 13oz of CYA, I'm hoping that has an effect. This pH is just miserable.
In theory, 24 ounces of full-strength acid in 10,000 gallons would lower the TA by 9.4 ppm and the 18 ounces by 7 ppm so it's surprising you aren't seeing any drop. Just keep at it since the aeration is working to raise the pH so that you can drop it and the TA down with acid, but you do NOT add 78 ounces of acid next. When I put your numbers into PoolMath it says to use 24 ounces of acid. So I don't know what you did to get 78. Even using 15% half-strength has PoolMath say 49.
At any rate, you've now added even more acid, but no there is no way that the aeration affects the TA. It raises pH with no change in TA and many people have used the aeration and acid procedure with no problem.
Are you sure that the titrant drops in the TA test are well formed or are they now squirting out? You should wipe the dropper tip with a damp cloth to prevent static electricity.
Is the Muriatic Acid that you are using full-strength 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid or is it half-strength 15-16%? It sounds like you switched to half-strength. Adding 64 ounces of half-strength acid to 10,000 gallons only drops the TA by 11 ppm so if you were on the edge between drops in the TA test you might not notice this change.
At any rate, you've now added even more acid, but no there is no way that the aeration affects the TA. It raises pH with no change in TA and many people have used the aeration and acid procedure with no problem.
Are you sure that the titrant drops in the TA test are well formed or are they now squirting out? You should wipe the dropper tip with a damp cloth to prevent static electricity.
Is the Muriatic Acid that you are using full-strength 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid or is it half-strength 15-16%? It sounds like you switched to half-strength. Adding 64 ounces of half-strength acid to 10,000 gallons only drops the TA by 11 ppm so if you were on the edge between drops in the TA test you might not notice this change.
Hi Chem Geek,
The drops are well formed and squirting perfectly. The TA is now down to 50 after about an hour of the four swim jets pushing around the MA and the CYA being sucked in through the skimmers.
However, now I see where the 78oz came from. I had left the 50 now and 50 target borate where it was when I wanted to know how much I should add when the borate comes in. Even though the borate "now" and "target" are both the same number of 50 when I revisit the page (and thus shouldn't be changed), the 31.5MA is set to 78oz because of it. When I take the 50/50 out of borate, the number goes to 24oz of MA. Is this an error in the Pool Calculator since the borate section isn't saying to add anything, or is it that you need to use more MA when there are borates in the pool? Either way, here's a screen capture of the pool calculator plus a screen capture of my latest numbers:
So the big question is, since I DO NOT actually have borates in the pool, did I just make this into a toxic swamp or will it correct itself?
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After an hour if the aeration, the pH is at 7 and the TA at 50 (see image above). My hope is some more aeration will raise one and not the other. It's odd that the loose CYA in the skimmer hasn't raised the CYA in the water at all.
As for the drops, I am very very careful to see that the drops come out as drops. I work a lot with essential oil blends and so I'm super sensitive to that kind of accuracy.
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What sucks is that these swim jets will constantly be raising pH. I don't trust those acid dispensers. I'm not even sure I'd want a time or percentage based one since I'd have to check the pH every time I got in the pool and the one time I forgot would be the time I'd have my face melt off knowing me. I may call these pool people for $65 per month and see if they are familiar with this website and how important the levels are.
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At least the chlorine is finally down to 5.5/0/5.5. Psyched about that.
The drops are well formed and squirting perfectly. The TA is now down to 50 after about an hour of the four swim jets pushing around the MA and the CYA being sucked in through the skimmers.
However, now I see where the 78oz came from. I had left the 50 now and 50 target borate where it was when I wanted to know how much I should add when the borate comes in. Even though the borate "now" and "target" are both the same number of 50 when I revisit the page (and thus shouldn't be changed), the 31.5MA is set to 78oz because of it. When I take the 50/50 out of borate, the number goes to 24oz of MA. Is this an error in the Pool Calculator since the borate section isn't saying to add anything, or is it that you need to use more MA when there are borates in the pool? Either way, here's a screen capture of the pool calculator plus a screen capture of my latest numbers:
So the big question is, since I DO NOT actually have borates in the pool, did I just make this into a toxic swamp or will it correct itself?
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After an hour if the aeration, the pH is at 7 and the TA at 50 (see image above). My hope is some more aeration will raise one and not the other. It's odd that the loose CYA in the skimmer hasn't raised the CYA in the water at all.
As for the drops, I am very very careful to see that the drops come out as drops. I work a lot with essential oil blends and so I'm super sensitive to that kind of accuracy.
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What sucks is that these swim jets will constantly be raising pH. I don't trust those acid dispensers. I'm not even sure I'd want a time or percentage based one since I'd have to check the pH every time I got in the pool and the one time I forgot would be the time I'd have my face melt off knowing me. I may call these pool people for $65 per month and see if they are familiar with this website and how important the levels are.
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At least the chlorine is finally down to 5.5/0/5.5. Psyched about that.
Also, is there a less subjective CYA test than the "can I see the black disk" test? My sense of color is great but I'm nearsighted and I wonder if I'm not getting accurate CYA readings trying to look down the tube.
That's not an error. The borates buffer pH so it takes more acid to move the pH. You didn't make anything a toxic swamp -- you just added more acid than you needed to and that just lowered the pH lower than you wanted but because of the aeration it didn't stay low for too long so don't worry about it.
The CYA takes time to register on the test because it is slow to dissolve. If you added it so that it would get caught in the filter, it can take up to a week to fully dissolve. If you had it in a sock or T-shirt or panty hose, then it will usually register with a day or two.
You are right that the swim jets will be causing aeration, but that does not mean the pH rise will always be fast nor that you will be using lots of acid. By lowering the TA level and by (later) adding 50 ppm Borates you will get more pH stability and use less acid. Because you have a plaster surface you'll compensate by targeting a higher pH (around 7.8) and by adding more calcium to increase CH.
Unfortunately the turbidimetric CYA test is the most accurate. See this Taylor web page for photos of what to look for where the black dot is no longer seen. Be sure to have your back to the sun with your body shading the tube and you looking down into it at about waste height, but if you must look more closely due to being nearsighted, go ahead and raise it up some.
Patience...
The CYA takes time to register on the test because it is slow to dissolve. If you added it so that it would get caught in the filter, it can take up to a week to fully dissolve. If you had it in a sock or T-shirt or panty hose, then it will usually register with a day or two.
You are right that the swim jets will be causing aeration, but that does not mean the pH rise will always be fast nor that you will be using lots of acid. By lowering the TA level and by (later) adding 50 ppm Borates you will get more pH stability and use less acid. Because you have a plaster surface you'll compensate by targeting a higher pH (around 7.8) and by adding more calcium to increase CH.
Unfortunately the turbidimetric CYA test is the most accurate. See this Taylor web page for photos of what to look for where the black dot is no longer seen. Be sure to have your back to the sun with your body shading the tube and you looking down into it at about waste height, but if you must look more closely due to being nearsighted, go ahead and raise it up some.
Patience...
I think it is time to give everything a few days to settle down and see where the numbers end up. Hopefully TA will stay at 50ish and PH will stay in the 7s for a while with no acid. If it does then you can add 50 ppm of borates.
Chem Geek: the CH has been 350 the last few times I've tested it, though it started at about 500 and went to 425 but it's settled at 350. Not sure why it's gone down but I don't imagine I need more calcium since pool calculator was saying I needed 250 to 350. The CYA test looks about right but I sit at the kitchen table under ceiling lights with some natural light from the window and have the tube on the table on a white paper towel and I look down into it. Even with my glasses, waist high just doesn't seem to work for me. The pic looked about what I see. I may try the test at waist level again just to see what results I get.
pooldv: I'm hoping it does. If the numbers don't stay there, can I bring them back down and then add the borates or do I have to wait a while for the numbers to become stable? I thought the borates were supposed to help the stability. I might be misunderstanding.
I'm definitely leaving it all alone for now. I'm aerating intermittently just till I get the pH back up a little.
pooldv: I'm hoping it does. If the numbers don't stay there, can I bring them back down and then add the borates or do I have to wait a while for the numbers to become stable? I thought the borates were supposed to help the stability. I might be misunderstanding.
I'm definitely leaving it all alone for now. I'm aerating intermittently just till I get the pH back up a little.
Doing the CYA test indoors will usually read the CYA too high though it really depends on the specifics of the lighting. I suggest you go outside with your back to the sun to do the test. If you need to, you can get CYA Standard Solution to see what 50 ppm CYA really looks like in the test.
Borates help stabilize your PH. You want TA to be set before adding borates.
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I'm pretty impressed with how much you lowered your TA in a short time. Lowering TA and stabilizing my PH is my pool project for this summer, but I'm planning to take at least half the summer to do it.
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I'm pretty impressed with how much you lowered your TA in a short time. Lowering TA and stabilizing my PH is my pool project for this summer, but I'm planning to take at least half the summer to do it.
chem geek: good to know. I had to run one indoors due to it being 2am but it has gone up from 50 to 60. Even though I don't do the tests when swim jets are running, I wonder if the movement makes for different "spots" in the pool. It's just weird to me that the TA would go up ten points in seven hours.s
pooldv: don't be too impressed. It went up ten points. I'm not sure why. I'm going to get it to 50 and then add the borates right when I do so it stays at 50. How the heck does it rise ten points in 7 hours, especially when the CYA is probably still dissolving in the skimmer. I'm just baffled. I'm super particular about how I do the two drops, five drops, and one drop at a time, and I wipe the 0009 spout after every drop with a damp paper towel. I'm just boggled.
The last one on the right is where I am right now. The text above each block is what I did prior to getting those numbers.
Hoping that extra .5 of CC doesn't mean I have to shock the pool. With all that's going on in it, I can't imagine algae would be having an easy time of it. The TA going back up to 60 concerns me. I'm really hoping it isn't higher tomorrow. As it is, I have to get yet more muriatic acid. At this rate, I'm going to have more muriatic acid than I am water. LOL
pooldv: don't be too impressed. It went up ten points. I'm not sure why. I'm going to get it to 50 and then add the borates right when I do so it stays at 50. How the heck does it rise ten points in 7 hours, especially when the CYA is probably still dissolving in the skimmer. I'm just baffled. I'm super particular about how I do the two drops, five drops, and one drop at a time, and I wipe the 0009 spout after every drop with a damp paper towel. I'm just boggled.
The last one on the right is where I am right now. The text above each block is what I did prior to getting those numbers.
Hoping that extra .5 of CC doesn't mean I have to shock the pool. With all that's going on in it, I can't imagine algae would be having an easy time of it. The TA going back up to 60 concerns me. I'm really hoping it isn't higher tomorrow. As it is, I have to get yet more muriatic acid. At this rate, I'm going to have more muriatic acid than I am water. LOL
Even with the TA at 60, those swim jets brought the pH up roughly .085 per hour with only two of the four running! That's almost a point and it's just insane because we use them so much. I'm really hoping the borates help. I can only imagine what people with heavily jetted hot tubs do. That must be an absolute nightmare.
So basically, if I get the TA to 50, I should add the borates right away to freeze it? I wonder if 50 is even the sweet spot, given that 60 is letting the pH rise at nearly .1 per hour with just two of the four jets on.
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I wish I'd paid better attention in chemistry class.
So basically, if I get the TA to 50, I should add the borates right away to freeze it? I wonder if 50 is even the sweet spot, given that 60 is letting the pH rise at nearly .1 per hour with just two of the four jets on.
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I wish I'd paid better attention in chemistry class.
The Borates won't freeze the pH. They will just buffer it more but without adding carbonates that are a source of rising pH in the first place. You'll also target a higher pH so will be closer to equilibrium between carbon dioxide in the water and air. See this chart where 50 ppm TA (with 30 ppm CYA) and pH 7.8 says "1.2" which means a little more than twice as much carbon dioxide in the water compared to air. The outgassing should be pretty slow so the pH rise also slow. At TA 40 and pH 8.0 there would be equilibrium so no outgassing at all.
So to repeat, it's not just the lower TA, but also a higher pH that will slow things down. That is, the pH rises more when it's lower than when it's higher. The Borates will slow down this rate of rise though it won't change how much acid is needed -- the lower TA and higher pH are what will lessen the amount of acid needed. Just try it and you'll see.
So to repeat, it's not just the lower TA, but also a higher pH that will slow things down. That is, the pH rises more when it's lower than when it's higher. The Borates will slow down this rate of rise though it won't change how much acid is needed -- the lower TA and higher pH are what will lessen the amount of acid needed. Just try it and you'll see.
Chem geek: I think im lost. So what should my regular pH be with borates? Not 7.6 anymore? I wish I could say I understood the chart but that may be beyond me.
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Also, that pool calculator seems to suggest I would need more acid if there were borates. When the now/target of borates were both set to 50 (meaning I reached my target) the amount of suggested MA for the pH change I needed went from 24 to 78 ounces. I don't know if that's a bug in the application though. I'm trying to not be confused but not sure it's working.
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Also, that pool calculator seems to suggest I would need more acid if there were borates. When the now/target of borates were both set to 50 (meaning I reached my target) the amount of suggested MA for the pH change I needed went from 24 to 78 ounces. I don't know if that's a bug in the application though. I'm trying to not be confused but not sure it's working.
With TA at 50 wait at least several days to see how your PH will act. It may rise to 7.6 and hold or 7.8 and hold.
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,768
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
Your swings in TA aren't surprising. TA always goes up and down with changes in pH. The trick to lowering it is that it goes down a bit more when you lower pH with MA, than it goes up when pH is raised by aeration. So by repeating the lowering to about 7.2 with MA, then raising to about 7.8 with aeration, you will see the TA slowly come down.
This is something that no one outside this forum seems to know. A pool store will test your TA for you, and gladly sell you something to raise it, but ask them how to lower it and you get a blank look. Just replace all your water with lower TA water is the only suggestion I have ever heard.
Just another secret tha only TFP seems to know.
This is something that no one outside this forum seems to know. A pool store will test your TA for you, and gladly sell you something to raise it, but ask them how to lower it and you get a blank look. Just replace all your water with lower TA water is the only suggestion I have ever heard.
Just another secret tha only TFP seems to know.
chiefwej: oh ok. I thought the aeration didn't raise pH. So it does have an effect?
Here are my numbers today. The comments on top of the boxes are what I did to get to the state of the box below them.
The TA seems to be holding. The pH is rising a little more slowly but I also had no aeration going. I'm going to get some more MA and try to get the TA to 50 since the boric acid powder is coming Tuesday.
I'm a bit confused though. Does aeration effect TA a little bit via the pH? Maybe that's why this is taking so long
The TA seems to be holding. The pH is rising a little more slowly but I also had no aeration going. I'm going to get some more MA and try to get the TA to 50 since the boric acid powder is coming Tuesday.
I'm a bit confused though. Does aeration effect TA a little bit via the pH? Maybe that's why this is taking so long
Aeration raises the pH with no change in TA. Acid addition lowers both pH and TA. So combining acid addition with aeration has the TA lower over time.
The small change in TA you see from aeration is either testing error or something else in the spa other than carbon dioxide that is outgassing. For example, if chlorine were to outgas from the spa, it would raise both the pH and the TA, but it would take a lot to move the TA by 10 ppm so I don't think that's it unless you were right on the edge between 50 and 60 ppm (i.e. the test is only accurate to within one drop, which is 10 ppm).
Note that the lowering of TA comes from your adding acid, NOT from you aerating. The reason you aerate is to get the pH up since you don't want to keep having the pH get lower and lower with your acid additions since very low pH is damaging to plaster and metal. Also note that you do NOT need to keep aerating to have the pH rise to 7.8 and in fact the Lower Total Alkalinity procedure says only to aerate to get to 7.6 before adding acid and technically to make things go even faster you should add acid whenever the pH is above 7.2 at all. The process goes faster at lower pH because the carbon dioxide outgases faster at lower pH.
The small change in TA you see from aeration is either testing error or something else in the spa other than carbon dioxide that is outgassing. For example, if chlorine were to outgas from the spa, it would raise both the pH and the TA, but it would take a lot to move the TA by 10 ppm so I don't think that's it unless you were right on the edge between 50 and 60 ppm (i.e. the test is only accurate to within one drop, which is 10 ppm).
Note that the lowering of TA comes from your adding acid, NOT from you aerating. The reason you aerate is to get the pH up since you don't want to keep having the pH get lower and lower with your acid additions since very low pH is damaging to plaster and metal. Also note that you do NOT need to keep aerating to have the pH rise to 7.8 and in fact the Lower Total Alkalinity procedure says only to aerate to get to 7.6 before adding acid and technically to make things go even faster you should add acid whenever the pH is above 7.2 at all. The process goes faster at lower pH because the carbon dioxide outgases faster at lower pH.
Good to know. It seemed like I was pretty close to 50ppm of TA before it went up to 60ppm, but who knows. I'm going to keep trying till I get to a sorta consistent 50 since the borates are coming on Monday.
The pool calculator suggests a LOT more acid to lower pH when you have borates in, so I'm guessing I need to stock up.
The pool calculator suggests a LOT more acid to lower pH when you have borates in, so I'm guessing I need to stock up.