I would continue with what you are doing until TA gets to 60 and see how PH acts then. If PH still rises rapidly then you can add Borate and let TA drop to 50 and see what happens. Here is more info on borates, Borates - Why and How
Accidentally added pH Up instead of down.
- Thread starter christianday
- Start date
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,788
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
You seem to have an unusual situation with your pool. You appear to have a huge amount of aeration in the pool which is leading to a very rapid rise in pH. This may require you to operate the pool at an unusually low TA in order to get the pH to stabilize at a reasonable level. If you continue to allow the pool to rise to high pH you will have problems with scale forming as calcium begins to precipitate out of the water.
Your CH reading indicates how much calcium is present in the water. The CSI (calcium saturation index) reading (from PoolMath) tells you if it will stay in the water or precipitate and form scale. CSI is a result of a number of factors including CH,pH, temperature, etc. You will need to monitor the CSI. If it gets too high, you will have scale, too low and you risk damage to the pool.
Lowering the TA helps stabilize the pH, and adding borates can further help. But you should get your TA where you want it before adding any Borates. It's much harder to lower it after adding Borates.
Your CH reading indicates how much calcium is present in the water. The CSI (calcium saturation index) reading (from PoolMath) tells you if it will stay in the water or precipitate and form scale. CSI is a result of a number of factors including CH,pH, temperature, etc. You will need to monitor the CSI. If it gets too high, you will have scale, too low and you risk damage to the pool.
Lowering the TA helps stabilize the pH, and adding borates can further help. But you should get your TA where you want it before adding any Borates. It's much harder to lower it after adding Borates.
Yeah, I want to avoid any more kinds of chemicals if I can, but I guess time will tell. I'm about to run tests again. I took off the SWG to clean a few weeks ago and it didn't have any scaling thankfully, nor has there been any in the pool, but I'm keeping a close eye.
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I just read about borates and pets. I don't think I'd want to chance that.
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I just read about borates and pets. I don't think I'd want to chance that.
Does anyone use borates that have pets? Any problems? Also, can borates me used in an SWG pool?
Yesterday's tests:
Date 6/16/15Time 10:02 PM
pH: > 8.2
FC: -
CC: -
TC: 0
TA: 100
CH: -
CYA: -
Date 6/16/15
Time 10:41 PM
pH: 6.9
FC: 9
CC: 0.5
TC: 9.5
TA: 70
CH: 350
CYA: 55
Date 6/16/15
Time 11:38 PM
pH: 7.2
FC: -
CC: -
TC: 0
TA: -
CH: -
CYA: -
Date 6/17/15Time 3:21 AM
pH: 7.4
FC: 8.5
CC: 0.5
TC: 9
TA: 7
CH: -
CYA: -
Now (5:50pm ... over 14 hours since last test):
Date 6/17/15
Time 5:50 PM
pH: 7.6
FC: 10.5
CC: 0.5
TC: 11
TA: 8
CH: 350
CYA: 75
The pH seems to be rising more slowly so that work's paying off. It's day three after adding CYA and that finally seems to be in a good place though the chlorine is super high. The filter pump runs for two sessions per day of five hours each and I dropped the chlorination from 35% to 25%, which is 2.5 cumulative hours of chlorination time. Seems low but since the FC is so high and the CC so perfect, it's the only thing I can think of to do.
I'm going to look into the borates if the pH goes crazy after turning on jets.
Now here's a big question for the experts: If the pH spikes again, should I be careful adding acid if it's going to lower the TA too much? Pooldv: you recommended a possible 50 so should that be my lowest number?
Yesterday's tests:
Date 6/16/15Time 10:02 PM
pH: > 8.2
FC: -
CC: -
TC: 0
TA: 100
CH: -
CYA: -
Date 6/16/15
Time 10:41 PM
pH: 6.9
FC: 9
CC: 0.5
TC: 9.5
TA: 70
CH: 350
CYA: 55
Date 6/16/15
Time 11:38 PM
pH: 7.2
FC: -
CC: -
TC: 0
TA: -
CH: -
CYA: -
Date 6/17/15Time 3:21 AM
pH: 7.4
FC: 8.5
CC: 0.5
TC: 9
TA: 7
CH: -
CYA: -
Now (5:50pm ... over 14 hours since last test):
Date 6/17/15
Time 5:50 PM
pH: 7.6
FC: 10.5
CC: 0.5
TC: 11
TA: 8
CH: 350
CYA: 75
The pH seems to be rising more slowly so that work's paying off. It's day three after adding CYA and that finally seems to be in a good place though the chlorine is super high. The filter pump runs for two sessions per day of five hours each and I dropped the chlorination from 35% to 25%, which is 2.5 cumulative hours of chlorination time. Seems low but since the FC is so high and the CC so perfect, it's the only thing I can think of to do.
I'm going to look into the borates if the pH goes crazy after turning on jets.
Now here's a big question for the experts: If the pH spikes again, should I be careful adding acid if it's going to lower the TA too much? Pooldv: you recommended a possible 50 so should that be my lowest number?
I have had borates, pets and SWG for 3 years. Both dogs drink pool water, one more than the other one. The one that does also lies on the sun shelf when it is hot. The only symptom I have seen has been that he gets fatter and lazier every year. 
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,788
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
Borates and pets. If the pet swims a lot and/or drinks from the pool a lot, I would have some concern. If not no problem. My son has a dog that swims in our pool occasionally (doesn't live with us), I have no concerns, since it's not a daily event
Borates and SWG. That is the most common use for borates. SWG pools have constant rising pH, and many here have added borates to help buffer the pH rise. I've got 50 ppm borates in the pool and if I keep my TA around 60 the pool wil stabilize with a pH about 7.7
Borates and SWG. That is the most common use for borates. SWG pools have constant rising pH, and many here have added borates to help buffer the pH rise. I've got 50 ppm borates in the pool and if I keep my TA around 60 the pool wil stabilize with a pH about 7.7
Pooldv/chiefwej: good to know. Our three poodles avoid the pool like the plague and are terrified to get near it so I doubt the borates will be a problem.
Will definitely look into the borates.
With the landscaping around the pool, we get more debris than I'd like. What is the maximum recommended time to run a filter pump? I expanded ours to two 8 hour sessions per day with the chlorinator at 15% because the current amount of chlorination has the pool at 10.5 FC with <.5 CC. That's about 2.4 cumulative hours of chlorination. I'll up it to .2 as it starts to drop a little but since the CYA finally got to 75, the chlorine has spiked. At least I know there won't be any of these brain eating amoebas. :-D
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I plan to add 50ppm of borates as soon as I get the TA down to 60 more consistently.
Will definitely look into the borates.
With the landscaping around the pool, we get more debris than I'd like. What is the maximum recommended time to run a filter pump? I expanded ours to two 8 hour sessions per day with the chlorinator at 15% because the current amount of chlorination has the pool at 10.5 FC with <.5 CC. That's about 2.4 cumulative hours of chlorination. I'll up it to .2 as it starts to drop a little but since the CYA finally got to 75, the chlorine has spiked. At least I know there won't be any of these brain eating amoebas. :-D
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I plan to add 50ppm of borates as soon as I get the TA down to 60 more consistently.
Yikes. 50ppm of borates means 382oz of boric acid. Yikes. That's gonna be fun.
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How does 382oz of boric acid not lower the pH dramatically?
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How does 382oz of boric acid not lower the pH dramatically?
- Jun 12, 2011
- 3,788
- Pool Size
- 19500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pureline Crystal Pure 60,000
Boric acid has little effect on the pH. The quantity required to raise the borates to 50 would only lower the pH by about .4
You could then add some 20 mule team borax to lower the pH.
You could then add some 20 mule team borax to lower the pH.
chiefwej: Doesn't borax has other stuff in it? The Duda Energy link has the boric acid. I am glad it doesn't screw around with the pH too much. I saw on the link that granular is better to use than powdered. I'm wondering which one pool calculator is showing by volume, since I'm guessing the powdered would be different. Also, is powdered really that hard to use because I'd like to get a big pail of it and use the rest to control these nasty fire ants.
I got the 55lb pail of fine powder boric acid powder from Duda. I read about how the granules don't float on the top of the pool but there's no way anything floats on the top of this pool with all four swim jets running to distribute the powder. This pool is more turbulent than some rivers and streams I've seen with all four jets going. I'm probably going to go a little lower than the 50ppm just to keep under EPA standards and use the rest for bugs.
We have lots of trees and during spring and fall busy tree season we run our VS pump 24x7. Our VS pump skims and makes chlorine at 1100 rpm and only draws 150 watts.
pooldv. Good to know. Aaaaaand the pH is up to 7.8 with an hour of the swim jets. They are great for forcing stuff into the skimmer so I'm glad I ordered the borates.
I'm still fighting the fight. TA is still holding at 80 and pH at 8, but added 24oz or so MA.
Date 6/19/15
Time 10:02 PM
pH: 8
FC: 5
CC: 0.5
TC: 5.5
TA: 80
CH: -
CYA: 55
Now, a question I hadn't thought of yet ... once my TA gets down to 60, what if my pH rises to 8.2 again? How do I lower the pH without lowering the TA too much?
The boric acid is on the way so I'm hoping that helps. I'm considering one of those acid dispensers but Hayward doesn't seem to make anything but Sense and Dispense and I'd rather have a time or percentage based dispenser than something that could misread and suddenly dump tons in the pool. Heck, a dispenser kinda scares me because god forbid you don't check pH before you get in the pool.
Date 6/19/15
Time 10:02 PM
pH: 8
FC: 5
CC: 0.5
TC: 5.5
TA: 80
CH: -
CYA: 55
Now, a question I hadn't thought of yet ... once my TA gets down to 60, what if my pH rises to 8.2 again? How do I lower the pH without lowering the TA too much?
The boric acid is on the way so I'm hoping that helps. I'm considering one of those acid dispensers but Hayward doesn't seem to make anything but Sense and Dispense and I'd rather have a time or percentage based dispenser than something that could misread and suddenly dump tons in the pool. Heck, a dispenser kinda scares me because god forbid you don't check pH before you get in the pool.
Drop TA 10 at a time and see if PH holds. I've seen people with borates and TA around 50 before PH settles down. Let's hope it does by 50. If not we can work on it some more.
pooldv: thank you. There's a local company that will come and check stuff once per week and they use Muriatic Acid and not dry acid. Do those companies tend to get what the pool is supposed to be like? I was thinking of hiring one of them if it turns out that this acid thing is an endless battle but before I hire them I'm going to ask if they're familiar with this website cuz this is the hardcore. Our pool builder's chem guy kept insisting the dry acid was ok and the more I looked into it, especially with our high CH, I realized that there was no way that wouldn't be an issue long term.
I got the pH down to 7.5. I accidentally added only 24oz, so the pH I tested at must have been about 7.8 not 8 and I realized I had put the 8 drops of TA where the pH was and that the test actually was 7.8. I ran the swim jets for three hours and we're still at 7.5 so it seems like it's starting to stabilize. I added more MA to bring it to 7.2. Part of the confusion is using this pool calculator.com where adjusting TA adjusts the MA addition in the pH area.
My guess is, after all of this, the TA will be about 64 unless I really screwed up with the numbers. I added 24oz MA and then 18oz MA three hours later but the calculator might have had my targets off due to adjusting both TA and pH. I'm going to bring it down to 50 tomorrow and when the borates come in, bring those up to 50. The total 42oz of MA should bring the TA from 80 to 64 and the pH down to 7.2 or so. I will find out tomorrow. Keeping two of the four jets running to make sure the pH doesn't drop too much.
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Ug. Redoing the math in the "effects of adding chemicals" section, the 42oz of MA should bring it down to 6.9 from the original 7.9, which is weird because three hours after adding the 24, I was at 7.5 and to get from 7.5 to 7.2 is 24oz. It must have something to do with changing the TA targets but it's very confusing.
I got the pH down to 7.5. I accidentally added only 24oz, so the pH I tested at must have been about 7.8 not 8 and I realized I had put the 8 drops of TA where the pH was and that the test actually was 7.8. I ran the swim jets for three hours and we're still at 7.5 so it seems like it's starting to stabilize. I added more MA to bring it to 7.2. Part of the confusion is using this pool calculator.com where adjusting TA adjusts the MA addition in the pH area.
My guess is, after all of this, the TA will be about 64 unless I really screwed up with the numbers. I added 24oz MA and then 18oz MA three hours later but the calculator might have had my targets off due to adjusting both TA and pH. I'm going to bring it down to 50 tomorrow and when the borates come in, bring those up to 50. The total 42oz of MA should bring the TA from 80 to 64 and the pH down to 7.2 or so. I will find out tomorrow. Keeping two of the four jets running to make sure the pH doesn't drop too much.
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Ug. Redoing the math in the "effects of adding chemicals" section, the 42oz of MA should bring it down to 6.9 from the original 7.9, which is weird because three hours after adding the 24, I was at 7.5 and to get from 7.5 to 7.2 is 24oz. It must have something to do with changing the TA targets but it's very confusing.
It is rare to find a pool industry company who is familiar with or even accepting of TFPC. PH drops with MA will be fairly precise according to poolmath. The corresponding TA drop seems to me to be a little more voodoo to me. But, you are in N.O. so you might get the voodoo better.
I lived in metry for about 7 years back in the 80s so I am slightly familiar with the voodoo.
I lived in metry for about 7 years back in the 80s so I am slightly familiar with the voodoo.
Leaving two of the four swim jets on for the past seventeen hours has the pH back up to 8.2 or greater while the TA is STILL at 80. I have no idea what to do. That's after adding 42oz of MA last night. It didn't change the TA at all. Are we absolutely sure that the aeration doesn't hold the TA? This is insane.
I don't even know how to begin to make sense of these numbers. I'm at my wit's end:
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Pool Calculator says I should add 78oz of MA to get from 8.2 to 7.2 and to 60 TA. I should also be doing 13oz of CYA based on the reading of 60 but I'm going to leave that alone till I deal with the TA.
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Pool Calculator says I should add 78oz of MA to get from 8.2 to 7.2 and to 60 TA. I should also be doing 13oz of CYA based on the reading of 60 but I'm going to leave that alone till I deal with the TA.