16' x 30' Flat Kidney Owner Build

[duckcmmndr]

One question I have for folks who have been down this path before is how you went about setting the final, finished grade of the pool deck? This feels crucially important, but so far I've just kind of been eyeballing the slope around my site and thinking about it in my head. My initial thought is to set the top of my pool deck (top of pool + coping + paver height) to be at the same grade as the pad inside the shed that the pump and filter will be installed on. If you look in the photo above it kind of shows how the entire yard slopes gradually down from the shed, so my thought would be that between the shed and the pool I could create a small swale (not really a swale, but just strategic sloping) with pavers that would route any surface rainwater around the pool and then gravity would do its thing and continue to pull it away from the pool. I estimate there's a roughly 2"-3" drop between the middle of the pool site and the top of the shed's concrete pad. I remember reading in some reading from Royal or Pool Warehouse that your finished pool height should be 2" above surrounding area, but I assume that means when you factor in the thickness of your coping and deck material as well?

I had a lot going on in my backyard, I was building a pool house before the pool and had an existing patio and the elevation of all of these were really important because after all was said and done I did not want any drainage issues or have awkward transitions.

It looks like your shed pad is the highest thing in your backyard, so you have to think about that. It also looks like you have an existing patio and you will want to walk seamlessly from the patio to the pool area without an awkward transition. It's really hard to give advice in this area without actually seeing it or having grade elevations. That being said I can give you some things to help you figure it out.

- The pool deck (your pavers) need to slope away from the pool, in all directions, at a rate of 1/8" to 1/4" per foot so rain water wont run into your pool (1/4" is preferred).
- The use of deck drains is a great way to get rid of excess water when you have something sloping away from your house and also away from your pool, sloping towards each other to a central low spot.
- A good laser transit is not required but makes figuring out elevations quick and accurate. It was the 2nd purchase I made after ordering the pool kit.
- You need to establish a location of "known elevation" and do not change it throughout the build. This will be your baseline to work off of in establishing grade for pretty much everything.

I have built lots of stuff over the years and always managed to get by with levels and string levels. I have used a old school transit (requires 2 people), and knew that was a slow process. I knew being down in the hole digging I needed a quick way to determine yes/no for depth so I bought a laser transit kit. I did not want a cheap one that was not going to give me accurate readings. I bought a Bosch GRL400H Self Leveling Rotary System. It is accurate to +/- 3/32" at 100 feet. That may be overkill for a pool...but it is what I landed on. Something like this: Bosch GRL1000-20HVK would be comparable. I am sure you could find a cheaper one or maybe even eBay it. Like I said, it's not required...but it sure makes figuring out what your elevations are quick and accurate. I can't imagine doing a job the scope of what I took on in my backyard without one.

If you look at this picture...you will see a brick (circled). This was my don't move it point. If you continue the grade of my patio at the same slope...you end up at this brick. I knew I needed a deck drain at this location. I based the elevation of the pool house slab and sloped outdoor covered area of the pool house as well as the dig depth of the pool floor off of this brick. So for example if it is 6' from the brick to the pools edge that means I needed to go up 1.5". So at that point I can take off the wall height + coping thickness + concrete deck thickness and know exactly how deep I needed to dig. Same thing to figure out how high the slab for the pool house needed to be so that by the time you slope away from the pool house towards the pool you ended up with a good fall both ways.


Here is the day the deck was poured...you can see the drain in the location the brick once was. I have a 2nd drain between the pool house and pool as well.


I feel like I said a lot and nothing at the same time....I hope this was somewhat helpful.

 

[dleonard1122]

Thanks @duckcmmndr you've basically validated what I was thinking in my head. I'm currently planning that I won't need to go the way of drains because while I may have slope from the pool and the house coming together, it will still continue to run downhill paralllel to the house and off of the patio. I really just need to break out my string line that I put away from when we put the patio in and start staking things out and taking measurements. I'll try to do some of that this weekend.

 

[kul]

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Also, that is a gorgeous lawn!!

 

[dleonard1122]

Well, we officially broke ground on the project (but not the ground breaking you're probably thinking of.)

We had the electrician out yesterday and they trenched a line from the house to the shed and ran a 240V line and installed a 50A sub panel in the shed.

Since I'm getting ready to fill out my electrical permits, I've been reading more about how to actually wire up the pump and SWG.

I think this diagram covers what I'll need to do. I'm planning on installing a 2 pole 20A breaker into the sub panel. Then, running liquid tight conduit with 3 insulated 12 AWG wires (red, black, green) to an Intermatic 240v timer (still need to pick this up.) From there, I'll follow the above diagram to wire out the pump and power center for the SWG.

Additionally, I'll run the 8ga bare copper bonding wire from the pump, around the pool on the metal walls, the metal steps and metal ladder.

 

[dleonard1122]

I'm planning out the installation of my new pool and I have an IC40 SWG and a Pentair Superflo VST (342002) that I just ordered. I understand the importance of only running the SWG when the pump is running, and want to make sure I wire everything appropriately.

I have read a decent amount of posts in this forum about possible wiring scenarios, and most of them involved having an Intermatic switch supply power to both the pump and the SWG to keep them running in sync.

There has also been discussion that the Superflo VST is meant to have continuous power.. I feel like I know just enough about all of this to be dangerous, but I understand there's probably a lot I don't know so that's why I'm asking.

Can the Superflo VST signal the IC40 when it is running? Or would this require one of the larger automation panels? If it's just the addition of a cable/accessory pack then that is probably worth it to me. I believe I had read that the older Superflo VS could not, but the newer Superflo VST had a certain amount of automation capability.

I don't particularly envision needing a lot of automation with my pool, and I'm fine with having a mechanical timer provide the switching for the system, but I just want to make sure that I'm not going to prematurely degrade the pump electronics by not providing continuous power, and if that's the case I want to see if there's a more efficient solution to work with the technology provided rather than trying to fight it.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

The SuperFlo VST does not have the means to directly communicate with the IC40. The pump does require constant power. The IC40 does have a flow switch that shuts down chlorine production when insufficient flow is detected. The flow switch should only be relied on as a secondary safety device. TFP (and Pentair) recommend that the SWG be be connected to a timer or switch that delivers power to the SWG only when the pump is running.

The 342002 pump is compatible with higher end Pentair automation systems. If you don't want to go with a full automation system, you can use a simple mechanical timer or other digital/wifi smart timer solutions. If you're in an area that is prone to power interruptions, it best to select a timer that will sync to real time when the device powers back up.

 

[dleonard1122]

The SuperFlo VST does not have the means to directly communicate with the IC40. The pump does require constant power. The IC40 does have flow switch that shuts down chlorine production when insufficient low is detected. The flow switch should only be relied on as a secondary safety device. TFP (and Pentair) recommend that the SWG be be connected to a timer or switch that delivers power to the SWG only when the pump is running.

The 342002 pump is compatible with higher end Pentair automation systems. If you don't want to go with a full automation system, you can use a simple mechanical timer or other digital/wifi smart timer solutions. If you're in an area that is prone to power interruptions, it best to select a timer that will sync to real time when the device powers back up.

Thanks for the response.

So, if the pump requires constant power and I want to use a simple mechanical timer, it will just be on me to make sure that the mechanical timer corresponds with the times that the pump is operating? That feels error-prone to me.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

it will just be on me to make sure that the mechanical timer corresponds with the times that the pump is operating?

Correct.

That feels error-prone to me.

That's the downside of a using a mechanical timer.

 

[ajw22]

Your alternative to an Intermatic timer is getting an IntelliFlo VS pump instead of the SuperFlo VS pump and then the simple Pentair IntelliConnect system that can control the IntelliFlo and IntelliChlor systems.

Unfortunately the IntelliConnect cannot communicate with a Superflo VS pump.

 

[dleonard1122]

@Rancho Cost-a-Lotta I have read that some people prefer to just run their pumps and SWG 24/7 at a low setting. Would this be a potential way for me to put both the pump and the SWG on the load side of the mechanical timer (purely for safety)?

 

[dleonard1122]

Your alternative to an Intermatic timer is getting an IntelliFlo VS pump instead of the SuperFlo VS pump and then the simple Pentair IntelliConnect system that can control the IntelliFlo and IntelliChlor systems.

Unfortunately the IntelliConnect cannot communicate with a Superflo VS pump.

Thanks for clearing that up. So, what does the RS-485 data cable on the Superflo VST actually get used for then?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Would this be a potential way for me to put both the pump and the SWG on the load side of the mechanical timer (purely for safety)?

Yes, that will work.

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for clearing that up. So, what does the RS-485 data cable on the Superflo VST actually get used for then?

The EasyTouch and IntelliCenter can use the RS-485 communication with the Superflo VS.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Check out Page 5 of the manual. In addition to RS-485 communication as noted above, the VST data cable features digital inputs and a 5 volt power supply for connecting to relay switches. See the Note below regarding IntelliConnect...

 

[dleonard1122]

The EasyTouch and IntelliCenter can use the RS-485 communication with the Superflo VS.

I see. I'm definitely getting the feeling that Pentair know how to force you into upgraded ($$$) models.

I'm not sure if I'd rather:

1. Run 24/7 with both the VST and IC40 on load side of a mechanical timer (I probably need to do some calculations to see if the pump and SWG can be set to run low enough to make this work)
2. VST on line side of mechanical timer with IC40 on load side and then just try to keep everything in sync manually
3. Stick with the VST and get the IntelliCenter to communicate with both pump and SWG
4. Return the VST, get the IntelliFlo, and get the IntelliConnect

I feel like I had read a thread on here where someone did not provide constant power to their Superflo pump (it had a ~12 hour memory or something, sorry I can't find the thread now.) Is that the issue I'm trying to avoid. Do we know that these pumps do not perform well if power cycled frequently?

 

[ajw22]

I feel like I had read a thread on here where someone did not provide constant power to their Superflo pump (it had a ~12 hour memory or something, sorry I can't find the thread now.) Is that the issue I'm trying to avoid. Do we know that these pumps do not perform well if power cycled frequently?

VS pumps are not designed to be power cycled to turn them ON and OFF.

You get them into the realm of glitchy electronics and things that were not tested by the manufacturer as that is not what they recommend in the installation manual.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

VST on line side of mechanical timer with IC40 on load side and then just try to keep everything in synch manually

Minimally, do this until you figure out which way to go.

 

[ajw22]

Minimally, do this until you figure out which way to go.

Except that commits to a SuperFlo VS solution and eliminates the options that require an IntelliFlo pump.

Figure out which fork in the Pentair road you want to take.

If you can run the pump on 240V the IntelliFlo VS or VSF is a more efficient pump then the Superflo VST and as you can see is more compatible with other Pentair products.

 

[dleonard1122]

Minimally, do this until you figure out which way to go.

Right, this feels logical. It might not be as bad as I think either. We've had 1 power outage (and it was planned) in the 3 years we've been living at our current location.

 

[dleonard1122]

Except that commits to a SuperFlo VS solution and eliminates the options that require an IntelliFlo pump.

Figure out which fork in the Pentair road you want to take.

If you can run the pump on 240V the IntelliFlo VS or VSF is a more efficient pump then the Superflo VST and as you can see is more compatible with other Pentair products.

Good points as well. I'll be wiring whichever pump I choose at 240V.