Bio-Dex Protect All

[spoonman]

Hi folks

Does anyone have knowledge of this product? It is supposed to held remove or soften calcium buildup caused by high CH/CSI. Supposedly it is a good pre-treatment before cleaning scale from tile.

 

[kimkats]

Here is their product sheet: http://bio-dex.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Protect-All-Supreme-SDS.pdf I am also going to ping our chemical expert to see what he says.

Kim

 

[JoyfulNoise]

It’s mostly citric acid and reacts with chlorine. It claims to contain no phosphonates so it’s probably a proprietary mixture of citric acid, EDTA based sequestrant and thickening agents. It will loosen up calcium but how well may depend a lot on dosing or more direct application. I’d keep an eye on your FC levels while using it may drop them and cause the formation of CCs.

What are you trying to do with this product??

 

[spoonman]

Thanks for the info. I’m looking to accomplish two goals if possible. 1. Address waterline calcium (it’s not too bad but trying to address before it gets out of hand). 2. I have what I believe to be calcium scaling on the plaster. I’m not 100% sure it is calcium scaling as I found the vitamin c and chlorine tablet tests inconclusive. Wouldn’t mind if the solution helps with this while addressing the tile line.

 

[duraleigh]

What are your current test results for CH, pH and TA? That's far more important than the Additive you are thinking about.

 

[spoonman]

Here are my results. I keep the low TA as I’ve been battling pH rise since the pool was new (pool is 18 months old). I just dropped the TA from 60 hoping the pH will stay steadier.

CH 1425
TA 50
pH 7.7

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Your water and mine are at the same point in terms of CH - it’s too high. The CSI can still be managed but it will require a lot of acid. I’m draining my pool soon to get my CH back down to reasonable levels....you should too.

 

[spoonman]

Life would be easier with low CH, that’s for sure. Are you draining at night?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Life would be easier with low CH, that’s for sure. Are you draining at night?

Well, my over-complicated plan is to do a very slow layered water exchange where I pump water slowly out of the deep end while simultaneously slowly refilling through the skimmer. It should take several days but, if I stay on top of it, the water level shouldn’t change much.

Otherwise if you have to drain and it’s hot, I would suggest renting two high rate submersible pumps from Home Depot with 2” discharge hoses and drain quickly then start refilking immediately. The rentals plus hose purchase will probably cost you $100 or so.

 

[spoonman]

That’s a good idea. I calculate that 2 pumps can drain my pool in under 2 hours. The fill though may take 12... not quite sure my hose got...may need to test.

As you said, the pump rental ($100) plus water ($50) and a second hose I’ll need (($50) gets me to $200. I’m considering pricing out RO service as an alternative. I’ve heard it’s around $300 to get a unit dropped off for a couple days. If it is only $100 extra I may try that. Any experience with that?

 

[cfherrman]

Not really much ro's here, Just seen that ro's are expensive and use a lot of your engery.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

That’s a good idea. I calculate that 2 pumps can drain my pool in under 2 hours. The fill though may take 12... not quite sure my hose got...may need to test.

As you said, the pump rental ($100) plus water ($50) and a second hose I’ll need (($50) gets me to $200. I’m considering pricing out RO service as an alternative. I’ve heard it’s around $300 to get a unit dropped off for a couple days. If it is only $100 extra I may try that. Any experience with that?

You can search for some old threads but I wouldn't bother with RO. The service companies that use them use lousy equipment with low pressure pumps so the waste fraction can be very high, nearly 25% of the water going to waste. So, what they'll do is come to your house, plug their RO system into the nearest outlet and let the pump run for several days. You'll have to monitor the pool and add make-up water as needed. Oh, and you'll have to drop your chlorine to near zero or else they will not run their filter (chlorine destroys the RO membrane). So, if you get a warm spell, you'll likely get an algae bloom and that will also make the RO worse. RO is good in theory but lousy in practice for pool water conditioning especially if the TDS is too high.

I think we had one TFP member do it last year or the year before that and after adding up all the costs, including the extra water he had to add back, the RO cost him somewhere around $600 AND he basically replaced half the water volume himself. So the RO did very little.

Drain and refill is always the cheapest option...

 

[spoonman]

I was just quoted $340 to do RO. Based on my calculations that’s only $120 more than a drain and refill based on the equipment I’d need. While there is some water waste with RO, I will get purer water, save water, and will not risk damaging my plaster. Haven’t made a decision but leaning towards RO.

 

[Phoenix14]

You might try a local pool service guy. I will drain and refill a pool for $250, including borates and all chemicals. Its getting hot this week though. It might be below 90 early next week. I'll do plaster I don't go to Peoria though.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I was just quoted $340 to do RO. Based on my calculations that’s only $120 more than a drain and refill based on the equipment I’d need. While there is some water waste with RO, I will get purer water, save water, and will not risk damaging my plaster. Haven’t made a decision but leaning towards RO.

Certainly up to you but I bet when you account for the electrical they’re going to use and the extra water you’ll be adding back from the waste fraction, it’s going to cost more than $340. Plus, check if their contract has a day use limit. I’d hazard a guess that the $340 covers a specific time period (like 48 or 72 hours) no matter what your CH/CYA has dropped to.

If you do go with RO, we’d all appreciate an update on how it went and what extra costs were involved. We get quite a few pool drain posts every season and many people ask about RO.

 

[spoonman]

Just started RO yesterday. It took about an hour for them to set it up. Here is a breakdown of the equipment...

1 hose to waste (sewer clean-out)
1 hose fill (to replace loss)
1 hose treated water
1 submersible pump for intake (to the RO machine)

When the process started my CH was around 1600!! according to my K-2006 test kit. The RO guy's kit said 1100? It has run overnight and into today. Today I tested the water (with my K-2006 kit) and it is already down at 1100. I'm not sure why the discrepancy between tests, but that it a 30% drop according to my test kit.

The pump is not very loud, a bit like a commercial ice machine in a hotel or a tire pump running in the distance. The RO tech matched the fill and waste water GPM so that the pool would stay level. They said to keep an eye on it, but not to worry too much. As of today, the water is holding almost dead center on the tile line.

I'm told that the process will take roughly 4 days. Based on my calculations, I will lose roughly half of the current water to waste. On the plus side, I will save 50% of the water and will have CH at 200, which is half the CH of our tap water fill. Downside is a bit more cost and a bit more trouble. Kind of fun though

 

[kimkats]

Pics please!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I found a local guy to blast my tile with MaxxStrip so I’ll be doing that on Friday. Once the tile is clean, then I’ll start my partial drain and refill to lower CH. The water softener is currently plumbed into the autofill line so from this point forward my pool is being replenished with zero hardness water.

We certainly appreciate any stats you can post regarding start/end hardness, volume treated, volume to waste, etc., as well as final costs involved. RO is not that common on most regions of the country but it is available around these parts so that information would definitely benefit others.

Will the RO company be rebalancing your chemistry post filtration or are you planning to do it?

 

[spoonman]

Here is a picture of the RO unit working...



The unit is attached to a dolly/hand truck lying down. The large tube is the intake. Once the process is complete, Ecoklear will rebalance the water.

 

[kimkats]

Quite a bit smaller than I thought it would be!