cfherrman
TFP Guide
Bio-Dex Protect All
- Thread starter spoonman
- Start date
Yeah. It seems like a pretty good system, just has to run a few days.
There is another company in Phoenix that parks a giant onboard filtration truck in front of your house. That system is much larger and only takes 8-24 hours. Downside is they charge a lot more...enough where it doesn’t make financial sense.
There is another company in Phoenix that parks a giant onboard filtration truck in front of your house. That system is much larger and only takes 8-24 hours. Downside is they charge a lot more...enough where it doesn’t make financial sense.
Checked the CH today and it is down to ~700.
So, 1600 1st day, 1100 2nd day, and 700 3rd day.
Hoping to get to 200. May take about another day and a half.
So, 1600 1st day, 1100 2nd day, and 700 3rd day.
Hoping to get to 200. May take about another day and a half.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Not actual volume, but theoretical volume. What I mean is that I checked the gpm of the fill hose when it was added. That way I can extrapolate based on the amount of time the RO treatment takes.
I had to make some minor adjustments to the fill rate, so it won't be exact. My calculations when we started was that it would waste roughly 5,000 gallons in 3 days or 7,000 gallons in 4 days. My guess is that it will waste about 6,000 gallons when done. May be a tick less as I've slightly reduced the flow of the fill line. 6,000 gallons is half of my pool volume.
I had to make some minor adjustments to the fill rate, so it won't be exact. My calculations when we started was that it would waste roughly 5,000 gallons in 3 days or 7,000 gallons in 4 days. My guess is that it will waste about 6,000 gallons when done. May be a tick less as I've slightly reduced the flow of the fill line. 6,000 gallons is half of my pool volume.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
What’s your strategy for future fill water? Can you get the pool hooked up to a softener?
I would like to get a softener but I’m not there yet. I’ve been inundated with projects since we moved into our house about 18 months ago. New house, backyard, etc. it’s going to be 400ch tap water for now 
cfherrman
TFP Guide
Living with 250 ch for ten years and getting a softener was the best thing I even I ever done for my house
Here’s an RO update. Pool is currently around 275-300 range. Going to keep filtering overnight to hit 200. At this point I’m wondering if I can go a little under 200. With the desert evaporation and extremely high CH fill water, how far below 200 could I go? Maybe a question for the CSI calculator?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You really shouldn’t go below 200ppm or else you’ll need to keep your TA up above 100ppm and you pH in the high 7 / low 8 range to keep the CSI balanced. It’s hard to measure high pH levels with the kit you have and so you’ll be guessing unless you get a pH probe.
With your fill water CH as high as it is, you can expect to see your CH rise a few hundred ppm per year. Time to start saving for that water softener install....
Yeah. A softener makes a lot of sense. I just dread getting another item that I need to maintain, as well as another item that wastes huge amounts of water.
I’m curious to calculate cost of a softener, salt, etc with a 5 year water change vs no system and water changes or RO every 2 years or so.
I’m curious to calculate cost of a softener, salt, etc with a 5 year water change vs no system and water changes or RO every 2 years or so.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The pool is equivalent to another person in your house in terms of softener regeneration. Not sure why you think softeners waste “huge” amounts of water - my softener uses 25 gallons of water per regen cycle and it has a capacity setpoint of about 1800 gallons before regen. So even if my softener ran 8 regen cycles in a month, that’s 200 gallons of additional water use. I don’t think I’d characterize that as huge 
As long as your softener is sized appropriately for your household use (number of people) and your water hardness (grains per gallon), they’re not a huge waste.
Salt costs about $7 per 50lbs and you’ll use about 4 to 5lbs of salt per regen cycle. Most people can get away with about 150lbs every 3 months or so. So salt use is pretty cheap.
Maintenance is minimal if you go through a reputable installer. I got mine installed and it had a 5 year warranty and maintenance contract so if anything goes wrong, it’s a phone call to the installer and they send their plumber to look at it. Clack control valves are what the commercial/professional use and they’re pretty bullet proof in terms of life span.
Considering the cost of RO (service + replacement water), draining and refilling is definitely cheaper but you’re limited to doing that mainly in the fall months (Oct/Nov) when the air temps are lower. A softener is simply going to give you much more time between drains by slowing down the CH increase. If you keep your CYA in check, then you can go for a very long time before TDS ever becomes an issue.
And, honestly speaking, soft water feels so much better to shower in and wash your clothes with than the cement-liquor that passes for municipal potable water around here....
As long as your softener is sized appropriately for your household use (number of people) and your water hardness (grains per gallon), they’re not a huge waste. Salt costs about $7 per 50lbs and you’ll use about 4 to 5lbs of salt per regen cycle. Most people can get away with about 150lbs every 3 months or so. So salt use is pretty cheap.
Maintenance is minimal if you go through a reputable installer. I got mine installed and it had a 5 year warranty and maintenance contract so if anything goes wrong, it’s a phone call to the installer and they send their plumber to look at it. Clack control valves are what the commercial/professional use and they’re pretty bullet proof in terms of life span.
Considering the cost of RO (service + replacement water), draining and refilling is definitely cheaper but you’re limited to doing that mainly in the fall months (Oct/Nov) when the air temps are lower. A softener is simply going to give you much more time between drains by slowing down the CH increase. If you keep your CYA in check, then you can go for a very long time before TDS ever becomes an issue.
And, honestly speaking, soft water feels so much better to shower in and wash your clothes with than the cement-liquor that passes for municipal potable water around here....
cfherrman
TFP Guide
Don't forget to add in replacing appliances and faucets in your house if you don't get a softener, my second dishwasher was on it's way out and I only had ch 250.
My 64,000 grain softener was $640 on Amazon and I'm guessing about 1 Regen a month because it's huge. Every reason not to get a softener is a falicy made up by ignorant people
My 64,000 grain softener was $640 on Amazon and I'm guessing about 1 Regen a month because it's huge. Every reason not to get a softener is a falicy made up by ignorant people
My comment about water waste was in regards to regen numbers I’ve seen in the 50-70 gallon range. My thinking is that at 60 gal per regen times 2 per week, I’d be using 480 gal month or close to 6,000 gallons per year softening water. That is half the volume of my pool, meaning it would be no different for me to simply drain and refill every 2 years. The money spent on a softener and salt could instead be applied to a pool pump or drain/refill service.
I think the difference maker is the regen frequency and regen waste. If the waste gallons are lower and regen less frequent (as Matt and cf suggest), a softener becomes the clear winner. Coupled with the benefit of holding pool CH steady and less appliance wear, I can see the advantage.
Last concern I have is with salt and the environment. I’ve heard the added salt is bad for the environment. Matt and cf, any thoughts on this?
I think the difference maker is the regen frequency and regen waste. If the waste gallons are lower and regen less frequent (as Matt and cf suggest), a softener becomes the clear winner. Coupled with the benefit of holding pool CH steady and less appliance wear, I can see the advantage.
Last concern I have is with salt and the environment. I’ve heard the added salt is bad for the environment. Matt and cf, any thoughts on this?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
50-70 gallons per regen would be for a very large softener. My softener is a 54,000 grain softener and the regen uses 25 gal of water (that includes the rinse cycle after brine regeneration). The largest residential system you would install would be 64,000 grain. The larger the softener capacity, the less frequent the regen cycles would be. A quick estimate is this -
If your softener is 64000 grains and your input water hardness is 400ppm, then that would be -
64000 / (400 / 17.1) = 2,736 gallons
Figure a person needs 75 gallons of water per day so you calculate the reserve needed -
4 people X 75 gallon + 1 pool x 100 gallon = 400 gallons
Softener capacity = 2736 - 400 = 2336 gallons per regen cycle
So a softener could deliver 2,300 gallons or about 3 CCF of water with each regen cycle. If you used 24 CCF / month (pretty high use rate) then the softener would regen about 8 times in a month. 25-30 gallons per regen so 240 gallons per month or ~2,900 gallons per year of excess water use.
Obviously those are all quick, back-of-the-envelope numbers and you’d have to get specifics on any softener model you’d look at. But I still think not getting calcium in the water and avoiding drain & refill issues is the better way to go. Draining a pool can be a real pain and you only have a short time window to do it in. Draining a pool can lead to plaster damage and all kinds of unintended consequences. I much prefer the old saying that “an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure!” Given that I just spent quite a bit of money to get calcium scale blasted off my tile and then three days cleaning up the mess, I look forward to not having to do that again for a while.
To each his own of course....
If your softener is 64000 grains and your input water hardness is 400ppm, then that would be -
64000 / (400 / 17.1) = 2,736 gallons
Figure a person needs 75 gallons of water per day so you calculate the reserve needed -
4 people X 75 gallon + 1 pool x 100 gallon = 400 gallons
Softener capacity = 2736 - 400 = 2336 gallons per regen cycle
So a softener could deliver 2,300 gallons or about 3 CCF of water with each regen cycle. If you used 24 CCF / month (pretty high use rate) then the softener would regen about 8 times in a month. 25-30 gallons per regen so 240 gallons per month or ~2,900 gallons per year of excess water use.
Obviously those are all quick, back-of-the-envelope numbers and you’d have to get specifics on any softener model you’d look at. But I still think not getting calcium in the water and avoiding drain & refill issues is the better way to go. Draining a pool can be a real pain and you only have a short time window to do it in. Draining a pool can lead to plaster damage and all kinds of unintended consequences. I much prefer the old saying that “an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure!” Given that I just spent quite a bit of money to get calcium scale blasted off my tile and then three days cleaning up the mess, I look forward to not having to do that again for a while.
To each his own of course....
cfherrman
TFP Guide
At 400 I would even look at the 96,000 grains dual tank, I think it was around $900 compared to $670 for the 64,000
Think as a swg, go double what you need
Think as a swg, go double what you need
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
By the way, any update on the final RO numbers? Where did your CH finally fall to and how much waste water do you estimate you used?
RO was completed yesterday. Overall it took from Tuesday late afternoon to Sunday morning to perform the job. About 4.5 days for my pool based on the levels.
There was some discrepancy on the starting and final CH numbers as the test results differed between my K-2006 kit and the RO guy's test kit (model unknown). I've tested the CH routinely throughout the process and have adhered to the directions from Taylor, so I don't think mine numbers are incorrect. That said, the RO guy seemed pretty knowledgeable and I tend not to think he is performing his tests incorrectly either. Perhaps his reagents are old? Mine are less than 18 months old.
Anyhow, here are the numbers...
K-2006 Kit
Starting - 1600
Final - 225
RO Guy's Kit
Starting - 1100
Final - 175
Once the process was complete, the RO guy balanced the water. This included liquid chlorine, MA, and CYA. He told me he would add enough CYA to bring CYA back to 35. I haven't checked the final level yet, but plan to today or tomorrow. He was heavy handed on the chlorine which is good as the RO stripped out virtually all of the chlorine added by my Stenner over the couple days. He also added a ton of MA, which I believe was to drop the TA, as he said it was up around 80 or 100...I usually keep it at 50. pH was around 6.9-ish when he left. I aerated a bit yesterday, so we should be back in the comfort zone.
The pool looks like it is filled with FIJI bottled water. My water was always clear and well maintained, but the water now has a certain sparkle that it never had before. It also feels silkier (this is the part where people tell me to get a softener ). Overall the process was a bit of work, but this was largely because I kept myself involved in all aspects of the process. There is a bit of a price premium in getting RO service, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again every other year.
There was some discrepancy on the starting and final CH numbers as the test results differed between my K-2006 kit and the RO guy's test kit (model unknown). I've tested the CH routinely throughout the process and have adhered to the directions from Taylor, so I don't think mine numbers are incorrect. That said, the RO guy seemed pretty knowledgeable and I tend not to think he is performing his tests incorrectly either. Perhaps his reagents are old? Mine are less than 18 months old.
Anyhow, here are the numbers...
K-2006 Kit
Starting - 1600
Final - 225
RO Guy's Kit
Starting - 1100
Final - 175
Once the process was complete, the RO guy balanced the water. This included liquid chlorine, MA, and CYA. He told me he would add enough CYA to bring CYA back to 35. I haven't checked the final level yet, but plan to today or tomorrow. He was heavy handed on the chlorine which is good as the RO stripped out virtually all of the chlorine added by my Stenner over the couple days. He also added a ton of MA, which I believe was to drop the TA, as he said it was up around 80 or 100...I usually keep it at 50. pH was around 6.9-ish when he left. I aerated a bit yesterday, so we should be back in the comfort zone.
The pool looks like it is filled with FIJI bottled water. My water was always clear and well maintained, but the water now has a certain sparkle that it never had before. It also feels silkier (this is the part where people tell me to get a softener
). Overall the process was a bit of work, but this was largely because I kept myself involved in all aspects of the process. There is a bit of a price premium in getting RO service, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again every other year.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,728
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
No, I'd say it was closer to 7500. Not as low as I'd hoped, but getting the CH so low does help add to the time until the next refill (filling with tap instead would've started me around 400CH), which does save water in that respect.
My summation is that the service is great for people that want to save a bit of water (~30-50%), get higher quality water, but don't mind paying a bit extra as a trade-off.
Here's a softener question...would a softener help maintain the same level of water quality that is now in the pool? Specifically, would metals and other minerals in the tap water like iron or copper be filtered out by a water softener? Obviously calcium would be.
My summation is that the service is great for people that want to save a bit of water (~30-50%), get higher quality water, but don't mind paying a bit extra as a trade-off.
Here's a softener question...would a softener help maintain the same level of water quality that is now in the pool? Specifically, would metals and other minerals in the tap water like iron or copper be filtered out by a water softener? Obviously calcium would be.
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