Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

[Barry321]

Update on my electrical shock issues.

Electrician came by today. He unscrewed the bonding wire from the lug on the outside of the pool pump. Then we meaured the voltage at my problematic handrail and it disappeared down to approx 0.1 volts (a non issue) (Regardless if pool pump is on or off).

He also used his voltage meter to measure about 10 volts by touching one probe to the outside of the pool pump and the other probe to the bonding wire and then to the ground. This is with the breaker to the pool pump off (on made no difference)

He called an electrical engineer. The electrician and the engineer told me to leave the bonding wire loose and not connected to the pool pump lug housing because as soon as it's hooked up, the votage meter measures about 7 volts when you put one probe in the water and one probe on the handrail.

They both think it's not necessary to hook the bonding wire up to the pool pump given the voltage measurements.

I had a technician from the electric cooperative come out and check the electrical panel which he did pretty extensively with testing equipment and reported no wiring issues or problems.

The only issue I noticed is that my Hayward pool pump is leaking and looks like it's rusted on the bottom. Electrican mentioned there could be some corroded internal wiring inside the pool pump itself.

 

[TinFoilHat]

I would think that something is wrong in the pump motor as the bonding wire to the pump is there for a reason. Since it's leaking, you should probably replace it and see if that solves anything. I wouldn't want to swim with the pump unbonded.

 

[ajw22]

Update on my electrical shock issues.

Electrician came by today. He unscrewed the bonding wire from the lug on the outside of the pool pump. Then we meaured the voltage at my problematic handrail and it disappeared down to approx 0.1 volts (a non issue) (Regardless if pool pump is on or off).

He also used his voltage meter to measure about 10 volts by touching one probe to the outside of the pool pump and the other probe to the bonding wire and then to the ground. This is with the breaker to the pool pump off (on made no difference)

He called an electrical engineer. The electrician and the engineer told me to leave the bonding wire loose and not connected to the pool pump lug housing because as soon as it's hooked up, the votage meter measures about 7 volts when you put one probe in the water and one probe on the handrail.

They both think it's not necessary to hook the bonding wire up to the pool pump given the voltage measurements.

I had a technician from the electric cooperative come out and check the electrical panel which he did pretty extensively with testing equipment and reported no wiring issues or problems.

The only issue I noticed is that my Hayward pool pump is leaking and looks like it's rusted on the bottom. Electrican mentioned there could be some corroded internal wiring inside the pool pump itself.

Is your pump connected to a GFCI CB?

 

[mas985]

Update on my electrical shock issues.

Electrician came by today. He unscrewed the bonding wire from the lug on the outside of the pool pump. Then we meaured the voltage at my problematic handrail and it disappeared down to approx 0.1 volts (a non issue) (Regardless if pool pump is on or off).

He also used his voltage meter to measure about 10 volts by touching one probe to the outside of the pool pump and the other probe to the bonding wire and then to the ground. This is with the breaker to the pool pump off (on made no difference)

He called an electrical engineer. The electrician and the engineer told me to leave the bonding wire loose and not connected to the pool pump lug housing because as soon as it's hooked up, the votage meter measures about 7 volts when you put one probe in the water and one probe on the handrail.

This is because doing so connects the bond wire to the house ground/neutral so that pretty much convinces me that the problem is NEV. Unfortunately, it will be difficult to track down the source.

They both think it's not necessary to hook the bonding wire up to the pool pump given the voltage measurements.

As long as the pump is GFCI protected, your risk is reduced but eliminating the bond still allows for some rare scenarios that might not be fully protected. All three (breaker, GFCI, bonding) provides the most protection. GFCI breakers have limited lifetime so it is not unusual for those to fail and if you go this route, weekly testing should be part of your routine.

I had a technician from the electric cooperative come out and check the electrical panel which he did pretty extensively with testing equipment and reported no wiring issues or problems.

Hopefully, they tested correctly to look for a bad neutral connection but there is no guarantee.

Did the electrician disconnect the incoming house neutral to test for NEV from the power company?

The only issue I noticed is that my Hayward pool pump is leaking and looks like it's rusted on the bottom. Electrican mentioned there could be some corroded internal wiring inside the pool pump itself.

Probably a bad motor shaft seal. That is one way electricity can get into the pool water and the breakers may not trip but the GFCI should.

 

[Barry321]

Is your pump connected to a GFCI CB?

I have a GFI outlet next to the pool pump timer. I am not sure it's connected.

 

[Barry321]

Hopefully, they tested correctly to look for a bad neutral connection but there is no guarantee.

Did the electrician disconnect the incoming house neutral to test for NEV from the power company?

Probably a bad motor shaft seal. That is one way electricity can get into the pool water and the breakers may not trip but the GFCI should.

The electric coop tech hooked up a thing that looks like an eletric meter (he took my meter off and inserted one that looks just like it that he called "super beast" and tested the neutral (he didn't tell me all what he was doing) but he said those tests were fine.

 

[Barry321]

I would think that something is wrong in the pump motor as the bonding wire to the pump is there for a reason. Since it's leaking, you should probably replace it and see if that solves anything. I wouldn't want to swim with the pump unbonded.

COuld I insert a 6 foot ground rod beside the pool pump and run a bond wire to the lug on the pump- and leave the bond wire from the pool deck loose (it ends near the pump).

The electrician suggested this to me as an option.

(I just went back out with my voltage meter and placed one probe on the bonding lug and the other probe into the ground and it tested right at 10 volts. I then put one probe on the pump lug and one probe on the bond wire (wire just laying on ground) and it wasa also right at 10 volts. Pump was running - but it also tests the same with it off).

 

[ajw22]

I have a GFI outlet next to the pool pump timer. I am not sure it's connected.

I doubt your pumps runs through that.

You should have a GFCI CB installed and see if it trips. If it does it means the pump is leaking voltage and must be shutdown and replaced. Leaking voltage makes it unsafe.

 

[Barry321]

I doubt your pumps runs through that.

You should have a GFCI CB installed and see if it trips. If it does it means the pump is leaking voltage and must be shutdown and replaced. Leaking voltage makes it unsafe.

I could just have the electrician do that on the electric panel, right?

 

[ajw22]

I could just have the electrician do that on the electric panel, right?

Show me a pic of the pump CB and lets see how simple the change will be.

 

[Barry321]

Show me a pic of the pump CB and lets see how simple the change will be.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer to help me

It's just a routine two gang breaker in the panel. Plenty of room in that panel.

but I'm not going to mess with my panel. I don't even want to do basic work on it. I have a nearby electrician that can easily come by and works on houses and businesses all the time.

 

[Barry321]

The biggest frustration with all of this is seeing all the hundreds of pools around me - some done by people that I wouldn't trust to build a dog house- and no one that I've ever talked to around me has had the stray voltage issues I have.

I've have people nearby that have extensive building projects near their pool with all sorts of lighting and outside tv installations, etc- and they have none of these issues at all. I'm also about 10 miles from a lake where homeowners have all sorts of pools near the lake. Of course I don't know if they have any stray voltage but I'm at the lake a lot and people are using their pools all the time. (I didn't use my pool last summer, and so far this year I haven't used it at all. It's 92 degrees nearly every day here in South Carolina now).

I use a reputatble pool builder whose been building pools since the early 1980s, who used one of the most experienced electricans in our area- and I've got stray voltage issues that seem almost impossible to diagnose/trace, etc.

The electrician from the power coop told me he had never seen this issue before and wasn't sure he understood the problem after using his voltage meter all around my pump, pool and taking the outside electrical panel off- and calling his boss- an electrical engineer he said had been with the power company 30 years and loved to solve complicated issues. (his boss was already off work when he called him and he said he eagerly was interested in my problem)

Then the electrican- a guy who told me he'd been doing electrical work residential and commercial for almost 30 years said this was one that was a head scratcher for him and a bit odd.

But if it could happen to someone- it was going to happen to me.

 

[mclemenc]

I think your electrician found your issue. Send a few pics of the pump and Breaker set up. First thing as stated before was to make sure the pump is on a GFI breaker 10vac to ground is well above a GFI breaker trip point, Second as stated before with the pump disconnected from the bonding wire you were getting 10 VAC to ground, housing to ground. You have a bad winding in your pump, replace the pump. Forgive me if I missed this but with the pump disconnected from the bonding loops, do you still get volatge on the hand rail? And are you certain that when the pool was built, there is BARE #8 copper connecting all the metal components, Re-bar, Pool walls and coping? My initial thought is the source of your volatge is the pump, but somehwere there is insulated wire in the bond loop, the first connection point being that handrail. The rest may be Bare copper and that is allowing the voltage to shed into the ground as designed.

 

[Barry321]

Second as stated before with the pump disconnected from the bonding wire you were getting 10 VAC to ground, housing to ground. You have a bad winding in your pump, replace the pump. Forgive me if I missed this but with the pump disconnected from the bonding loops, do you still get volatge on the hand rail?


And are you certain that when the pool was built, there is BARE #8 copper connecting all the metal components, Re-bar, Pool walls and coping? My initial thought is the source of your volatge is the pump, but somehwere there is insulated wire in the bond loop, the first connection point being that handrail. The rest may be Bare copper and that is allowing the voltage to shed into the ground as designed.

With the bonding wire disconnected from the pump lug and just hanging free, I get less than 0.1 volt at the handrail (where I was getting 4-6 volts before). A quick check around the rest of the pool results in almost exactly the same measurements (in other words, no more readings over 1 volt or more- every measurement well under 1 volt).

The pool pump is corroded/rusted on the bottom (it's easily seen looking at the side of the pump) and it's also leaking water. It's been doing that for some time now. It's a Hayward SuperPump 1 hp. My guess is that my PH level was off for a good while when I wasn't really using the pool and paying attention and caused some damage. I feel pretty certain this has damaged some wiring inside the pump too given the way it looks on the outside. (I saw a new pump on Amazon for $749. That's with whole unit- debris basket/cover, etc.

All I know is there is a bonding wire running out from under my concrete pool deck down to the pool pump (where it was connected to the pump lug but since the electrician visited yesterday, is now hanging free as I removed it from the pump lug.

The bonding wire looks to be in good condition and runs to a spot under the concrete pool deck. I can only assume it is connected to everything underneath as it should be. I know the pool passed the drop by building code inspection as I have that signed off. But I wasn't here to see it. I assume he took a quick look at it and signed off.

 

[Barry321]

 

[nuttyp]

I've read through the thread and I may not have fully synthesized every symptom and suggestion, but this topic seems so important that I'll chime in before I'm sure of anything. If I read others correctly (eg @mclemenc and @ajw22 and others), I agree with them, implying perhaps you have at least two problems. One problem is that your pump is leaking (voltage & perhaps current) to/through the water, which means, for now, that the breaker(s) to it must be shut off and kept off until the problem is solved (eg new pump, then re-test). You could also test for how much current is passing, not just voltage, because even GFCI breakers trip based on current, not voltage - wherein voltage only represents potential for current to flow. Sorry if that seems like harping on a technicality. In any case that pump condition could also change for the worse (dangerously so) at any moment. Second problem seems to be (and I'm sorry to say it because it may be tough to solve) that your bonding to various rails (and other devices like the light housing?) is inconsistent, and there were some ideas presented by others regarding possible reasons (insulated bonding wire - or perhaps a missing wire, bad bonding connection(s), etc. One might suggest a third problem (with "experts") if an electrician or anyone else suggests leaving a bonding wire disconnected (from the pump or anything else) when you know this problem persists. To me that seems a bit reckless of them and I would not be inviting those folks back, just sayin'.

The visual condition of the pump doesn't play much into it, not for me anyway, but of course it does add to suspicions. I'd have a hard time finding a pump in my neighborhood that looks better, save for a few new installs. But the leak is a problem regardless. What I have seen is MANY (gosh, way too many) equipment pads with bonding wires that are strewn about and loosely tied - to the equipment and interconnects to other bonding / extensions, etc. Your picture may imply something similar there unless those are all pine needles, LOL. So you might consider tracing those bonding wires around, and I guess there should only be one (again a guess, I'm not sure) leading from the equipment pad to the pool/rails/mesh/light/etc. As an example, when I bought this home, the installation of the pool was only 5 years old and yet I found a #8 bonding wire sticking out of the ground next to the equipment pad, so I attached it to the one running between pump/heater/etc. I lit it out to measure zero resistance to all fixtures (and the pool cage) but now I realize I should go back and check voltage and current as applicable.

I'm unschooled about NEV (Neutral Earth Voltage) but there are some good threads on an excellent electrical forum - Mike Holt's - including one describing how there can be much variation from the power company at different times and days - here for example: NEV voltage and pool bonding. I wish you much luck!

 

[TinFoilHat]

Do yourself a favor and put a variable speed pump on it. It's about 300 more and well worth it.

 

[ajw22]

To put it simply...

Everything you describe about your pump says it is electrically unsafe and could become dangerous.

That pump should be turned off at the CB for safety and the pump replaced and a GFCI CB installed.

Inspectors, electricians, are not responsible for the safety of your family. You are and that pump should be taken out of service.

Electrical GFCI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Barry321]

Do yourself a favor and put a variable speed pump on it. It's about 300 more and well worth it.

Do you recommend a particular one that will easily replace what I currently have?

 

[Barry321]

Nuttyp - those are pine needles and a lot of sand. There is ust one bonding wire. The one in the picture runs behind the pad and up a tiny hill under the concrete pool deck. Right now it's just loose and not connected to the pump lug because as soon as I do, I get voltate on the voltage tester at one hand rail. As soon as I unhook it, there is less than 0.1 volts measured.

I talked to an electrical engineer today with my electric coop- like an actual electrical engineer- not someone that just calls them one and tinkers around with electrical stuff. . He's not a pool expert but he had no issue with me putting a ground rod 5-6 feet away from the equipment pad and running a wire to the pool pump lug and separating it from the pool bond. I know that goes against everything we hear and talk about but he had no issue with it.

But, the first thing I am doing is ordering a new pump.