Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

[mas985]

One other critical point I neglected.

If the pool and equipment were properly bonded, NEV would not be an issue. The point of bonding is to make everything equipotential even if it is different than Earth ground. So no matter what two things you touch, you will not get shocked.

As you have found out, bonding can fail or someone did not install it properly. But if you can fix that, you can also fix your problem.

Also, a leaking pool can be an issue as it provides a current path to Earth ground.

 

[nuttyp]

I don't see how that will help. An electrician can't fix the power companies issues.

Very true, I only mentioned it because I was thinking that the power company *might* listen to an electrician more than the homeowner.

 

[nuttyp]

If the pool and equipment were properly bonded, NEV would not be an issue. The point of bonding is to make everything equipotential even if it is different than Earth ground. So no matter what two things you touch, you will not get shocked

Yes, perhaps the best summation, thank you @mas985

Also, once the root causes are fully diagnosed and fixed, I suppose a Saftron or other nonconductive rail might have added benefit, especially if it can be determined that the rail is the ultimate unbonded culprit. That versus drilling out the anchors to add bonding for existing rail. I guess other threads discuss cutting a line in the cement/deck to run a bond wire from the new anchors over to the equipment pad. They make wraparound covers for metal rails too - but those are perhaps for comfort, not to necessarily fix this problem. example https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NLG7XHM

 

[Barry321]

The housing on the pump is already connected to a grounding rod via the house ground which is what has the voltage. If you wanted to use a second grounding wire for the pump then the house ground would need to be disconnected from the pump. Otherwise, if both the house ground and the new ground are connected to the pump and you connect the bonding wire to the housing, you will have exactly the same problem as you did before. The bonding wire must be isolated from the house ground.

The house neutral/ground is energized relative to Earth ground so you will get a voltage from there to the bonding wire which is in contact with Earth ground. Unless the power company does something about it, it will always be there. Nothing you can do will change that except going off grid.

Sounds like you will just have to live with the issues. Keeping the pool bonding separate from the house neutral/ground is probably the only solution.

and someone right down the street has a pool. Their setup would have to be similiar -with the same power company involved. It's hard to believe they wouldn't have any issues either.

I don't understand it.

 

[Barry321]

Yes, perhaps the best summation, thank you @mas985

Also, once the root causes are fully diagnosed and fixed, I suppose a Saftron or other nonconductive rail might have added benefit, especially if it can be determined that the rail is the ultimate unbonded culprit. That versus drilling out the anchors to add bonding for existing rail. I guess other threads discuss cutting a line in the cement/deck to run a bond wire from the new anchors over to the equipment pad. They make wraparound covers for metal rails too - but those are perhaps for comfort, not to necessarily fix this problem. example https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NLG7XHM

But if the bond wire hooked to the pool pump sends the voltage back around the pool. etc...

How is the voltage disappearing (when I unhook it from the pump) down to less than 0.1 volts all around the pool- everywhere- if the bond wire in the concrete isn't connected properly?

 

[ajw22]

How is the voltage disappearing (when I unhook it from the pump) down to less than 0.1 volts all around the pool- everywhere- if the bond wire in the concrete isn't connected properly?

Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points.

Voltage disappears when the amount of electrons between the two points is equal.

Electrons are everywhere and the potential for voltage is everywhere.

To give an oversimplified example, when one point has 1,000 electrons and the other point has 100 electrons then there is a difference in electron potential of 900 which is the measured as voltage. Electrons will flow from the 1,000 point to the 100 point until they equalize.

If two points both have the same number of electrons then there is no voltage difference and no flow of electrons.

Equipotential bonding causes all points that you can touch around your pool to have the same number of electrons. It could be many, high voltage with reference to a ground of 0, or few, low voltage with reference to a ground of 0. As long as there is no difference in electron potential between points you touch then there is no electron flow through your body and no tingles.

 

[Barry321]

Thank you all for your patience and answers.

Doesn't appear to be a real solution for me in this situation. Pretty incredible. I'm going to have to sit down with my wife and discuss our options at this point and whether we want to consider doing away with our pool. Tough situation.

If I had known pools could be this complicated, I think I'd have made a different decision. In other places, people have told me to test my bonding around the pool, etc- and I simply do not have the expertise to do this properly or adequately other than taking my voltage tester and walking around and meauring the different voltages but apparently that's not enough to ensure safety.

One thing I have learned is that almost all pool installers have no clue about any of this stuff- they just following their "to do list" but are of no value at all if there are any issues or troubleshooting other than replacing a piece of equipment and of course as I have found out, electrical engineers disagree on this stuff too. It's like calling 3 roofers and everyone of them has a completely different theory about roofing.

The power company isn't going to do anything. So I'm not going to continue to beat my head up against the wall on that issue.

Thanks again.

 

[nuttyp]

I understand that this is all very disheartening for you, and we each have different tolerance levels, differences in time and cash available to work the problems. I have friends who threaten to fill in their pools or sell the home simply because of the regular maintenance issues, let alone the difficulties such as yours. But I encourage you to continue the battle if you can muster the tenacity. I agree too about the service industry, and the issues seem to cross all disciplines, whether pool-related, electrical, roofing, auto repair, you name it. Is it getting worse, I don't know. My personal solution is to educate myself at least to the degree that I can judge a good opinion from a bad one. Referrals can help, but even that can be spotty. Speaking of education, watching that video I posted is till a good idea, I think. It's almost 2 hours long and leads to still more long videos, but good stuff to make us smarter: YouTube

It's just that your issue could be as simple as one unbonded rail. You asked "But if the bond wire hooked to the pool pump sends the voltage back around the pool. etc.." I think @ajw22 answered that in one way with the quote below, but I'll take another stab at a possible explanation. First, his quote:

Equipotential bonding causes all points that you can touch around your pool to have the same number of electrons. It could be many, high voltage with reference to a ground of 0, or few, low voltage with reference to a ground of 0. As long as there is no difference in electron potential between points you touch then there is no electron flow through your body and no tingles.

I think that quote means that proper bonding renders the source of the voltage rather moot. But continuing anyway with analysis of possible sources.... If @mas985 and others are correct that NEV is the source, the answer to why your pump connection to the bonding wire "inserts the NEV" may be because your pump could be the only electrical device in contact with the water that also has a green ground wire attached, wherein that ground wire is tied to the power company neutral back at your main panel (and only there per NEC code, no secondary ground rod allowed except in very rare cases, also as others have pointed out, because the 2nd ground wire/rod creates several other risks). If excessive NEV is indeed sourced from the power company load variations (or elsewhere in your home), and many posts offer experience that it happens all the time, then it seems to me the NEV promulgates to the pump through the green ground wire, then onto the bonding wire. Then we remind ourselves AGAIN that would not be an issue if the rail and all other metallic devices within 5 feet of the pool were all bonded together. There simply would be no way to create potential (electron quantity) differences between the rail and the water.

I suppose you could run another test but I'm not sure this is wise or advisable.... Is your pump the only device that is both bonded and grounded? For example do you have a heater or SWG or other device with both attachments? If the pump is the only such device and you keep the bonding wire attached but momentarily disconnect the green ground wire from the pump (power off would be safest, since that never affected your test results anyway). .. Does the problem also go away in that case? In other words does the rail to water differential disappear when the pump is disconnected from the green ground wire. It's just an idea, and it doesn't even prove the power company is the source, because there could still be a problem with that ground wire (and it's path with possible connections to other devices) from the panel to the pump. I'm rather hoping @mas985 or @ajw22 will comment, because I'm just thinking through the logic.

Still with you - Joe

 

[Barry321]

NuttyP - Thanks.

Yes, the pool pump is the only thing that I am aware - no SWG, heater, pool cover, etc.. Only other thing I even have out there is the electrical outlet next to the pool pump attached to my fence that is on a GFI and it powered my light and also has 1 receptacle on it than I would plug my leaf blower into it from time to time to blow off the pool deck. I have the breaker on that shut off and I completely unwired the pool light at the stub that is behind my pool on the far end because leaving the it wired up (ground wire I am sure) was causing a voltage reading of about 2 volts when I placed a probe on the metal housing and one probe in the water. (I pulled up the light assembly and placed it on the pool deck for the measurement). But when I unhooked the ground wire, there were no more volts showing up on the tester so I left it unwired and placed it back in the pool.

I will unhook the ground wire on the pump today and attach the bonding wire to the pump again and see if the higher voltage at the rail returns.

 

[nuttyp]

You're welcome @Barry321 !

Don't know if I should do this, but a summary of the two hour video might go as follows, a bit more scientific than my ground wire test, that ground wire (usually green) referred to more officially as an ECG (Equipment Grounding Conductor):

1. Test resistance of each ECG back to the ground lug at the main panel or entrance. Anything over a few ohms is suspect, especially after you subtract the resistance of the wire run back to the panel for the test.
2. With all wiring still attached, test the voltage from earth ground (eg from a screwdriver stuck in the earth) to each component of the pool (motor, heater, SWG, cage, fence, light, water, wet deck), etc. All should be the same (eg 0.6v in the video but whatever), any item that is different is likely UNbonded.

I’m not sure what led you to disconnect "all wires" to the light, but I am concerned especially if you also disconnected a bonding wire there. Unbonding things not good, as previously harped about. Watch the video, you'll get a kick out of the early section where he empathizes with the process of dealing with pool contractors, electricians and power company folks. Summarizing that - "It's all up to us". Just how it is I guess, unless you luck into someone.

 

[Barry321]

I’m not sure what led you to disconnect "all wires" to the light, but I am concerned especially if you also disconnected a bonding wire there. Unbonding things not good, as previously harped about. Watch the video, you'll get a kick out of the early section where he empathizes with the process of dealing with pool contractors, electricians and power company folks. Summarizing that - "It's all up to us". Just how it is I guess, unless you luck into someone.

I didn't disconnect a bonding wire that I know of - only the wiring for the light. Leaving the bare grounding wire connected still allowed me to measure voltage - about 2 volts- from the light housing to the water (and the coping right next to the light to the water was showing no voltage). When I disconnected the bare wire (and all wires were then disconnected) there was no voltage showing when I placed one probe on the light fixture and one in the water.

I'm assuming there is bond wire there somewhere maybe in the light niche itself, but I was just unwiring the power supply for the light itself from the stub in the ground that is about 8 feet behind my pool deck.

 

[Barry321]

I took off the end cover on my Hayward Super Pump and removed the ground wire that was wrapped around the green screw.

I took one probe from my tester and placed it on the outer pump lug (where bond wire should be attached) and the other probe placed on the loose bond wire (that runs up to the pool deck) and the voltage disappeared to under 0.1 volts. (with the ground wire attached to the pump, it measured 11 volts).

I walked up to my pool (the ground wire from my house panel to the pool pump removed from the screw on the pump) and placed one probe in the water and one probe touching the metal handrail and the volts measured were 0.01 range. When I walk around the pool and take several measurements from water to coping, or water to my handrail on the other end of the pool, it's all in the same range of 0.01 or so.

The source of the voltage is the ground wire going back to my house panel. This seems crystal clear. I know I can't get rid of that voltage on that ground wire that goes to my pool pump.

I am uneducated on how to make the voltage around the pool the same as the voltage going to that pump. That would mean all around my pool should be nearly the same as the voltage I measure at my pump (about 10-11 volts).

Again, the measurements around the pool seem to be almost identical when the ground wire is removed from the pool pump and/or the bonding wire isn't connected to the pump. When I hook up the bonding wire to the outer lug on the pump, then I get 11 volts on my tester, and I get 2-5 volts at one handrail.

How the heck are the measurements around the pool almost identical (very low under 0.1 volts) indicating a good pool bond- and then when I hook the bond wire up to the pool pump outer lug, then I get one handrail showing as 2-5 volts which seems to indicate a problem with the bond.

Wouldn't a poor bond or broken bond at the one handrail be consistent if it was bad? The bond wire that runs from under the concrete deck to the pump looks fine- I see no damaged areas and it's certainly not broken.

 

[mas985]

I am uneducated on how to make the voltage around the pool the same as the voltage going to that pump. That would mean all around my pool should be nearly the same as the voltage I measure at my pump (about 10-11 volts).

That is what the bonding is for. In order for bonding to work, everything must be bonding including all metal objects as well as the decking.

Again, the measurements around the pool seem to be almost identical when the ground wire is removed from the pool pump and/or the bonding wire isn't connected to the pump. When I hook up the bonding wire to the outer lug on the pump, then I get 11 volts on my tester, and I get 2-5 volts at one handrail.

That could mean the handrail is not bonded properly.

How the heck are the measurements around the pool almost identical (very low under 0.1 volts) indicating a good pool bond- and then when I hook the bond wire up to the pool pump outer lug, then I get one handrail showing as 2-5 volts which seems to indicate a problem with the bond.

Voltage is always measured between two points. It is very difficult to know what you are testing without referring to the two points of test. Saying you are testing the handrail doesn't tell me the other test point.

Wouldn't a poor bond or broken bond at the one handrail be consistent if it was bad? The bond wire that runs from under the concrete deck to the pump looks fine- I see no damaged areas and it's certainly not broken.

Again, it depends on what two points you are testing. Water has resistance so it could have a different voltage at different parts of the pool water depending on how it is bonded. Also, if there is ANY pool leak, even a very tiny one, this will create a voltage gradient in the pool.

 

[Barry321]

Voltage is always measured between two points. It is very difficult to know what you are testing without referring to the two points of test. Saying you are testing the handrail doesn't tell me the other test point.

Again, it depends on what two points you are testing. Water has resistance so it could have a different voltage at different parts of the pool water depending on how it is bonded. Also, if there is ANY pool leak, even a very tiny one, this will create a voltage gradient in the pool.

First, I test one handrail at the end of my pool where the steps are at. This is on the left of my steps as I stand outside the pool and stare at my pool steps. I place one probe in the water, and one probe near the bottom of the handrail just above where the rail enters the concrete.

Then I do the same on the other handrail.

Then I walk to the ladder on the other end of the pool and place one probe on the metal ladder handrail and the other in the water, then I walk to near the skimmer across from the ladder and place one end on the metal coping and then the other in the water. All of these measurements- with the bonding wire removed from the outer lug on the pump show almost the same voltage- all less than 0.1 volts.

Then with the bonding wire attached the pump (which we know is producing about 11 volts give or take on the ground leg), the one handrail (on the left, described first above), I get a reading of 2-5 volts. At each of the other spots around the pool described above, I get less than 0.1 volts (as I did before).

I agree with you that this seems to indicate the bonding at the first handrail is bad in some fashion.

Maybe I need to hammer drill out the concrete holding that rail in place to see if I can see anything. I can't get the handrail out of the anchors. I've tried numerous times. I'm ok with taking that rail out and not even having it there anymore.

 

[mas985]

Railing anchors are a common source of bonding issues because they corrode easily so loose a connection to the bond.

One interesting test if you are willing would be, with the bond connected to the motor and motor connected to house ground, is to put a probe in at each end of the pool water and measure the voltage difference. I suspect there may be a significant difference between the two ends of the pool which could indicate a small leak somewhere. Obviously to do this you will need an extension wire on one of the leads.

The other measurement I mentioned in the other NEV thread was to get the voltage of each 115v leg of the 230v service. This can be done in the breaker box.

 

[nuttyp]

Agreeing with @mas985 that it's tough for us to glean a conclusion from the descriptions, need pictures and best to run through all the NEV tests - with everything connected - as that test sequence is very systematic, always testing from one well described point (earth in the document and video) to each other point. That said, and as just a guess based on one of your recent tests, I tend to agree with you that the origin may be the ECG going from the pump back to the panel. If in fact voltage is being induced through that ECG, it could be caused by either the incoming power or a problem with that ECG along it's path, like it's loose someplace and picking up adjacent "stray" voltages, or the ECG is shared with another circuit which it should not be (but in wiring people do stranger things than that). More importantly, that set of disciplined tests should confirm that you have a bonding issue, most likely the rail as @mas985 says. So if you run through all those tests including the ECG resistance test and document each of the NEC voltage tests by running from only one single point (earth) to each of the other points,, I think more progress can be made. Sorry, but in your earlier post I can't really even discern whether the light is in the water, what the coping is, which wire was removed, etc. In that sense I'm a bit lost.

 

[Barry321]

Update:

Another pool electrician came by that was recommended to me. Replaced my pool pump. It was damaged and leaking. The bottom was almost rusted out.

He checked all connections after installing it including checking my house panel box and tightening up some connections. Still showing some voltage at one handrail and under .01 at most other spots.

He used his voltage meter around the pool and my handrail numerous times. He said the way the voltage was fluctuating at that one handrail make him think it could be some electrical wiring in the ground that we didn't know about- but he couldn't be sure.

He also mentioned bad bonding connections but wants to check everything else possible before considering options related to the pool deck or doing anything with the deck itself.

He seemed to be quite experienced (said he was 59 and has been doing pool work for 30 years) He works mostly on commercial pools and mentioned he's worked on a number of stray voltage issues over the years and is currently working on one right now in addition to mine.

He advised I called my local utility locator service to have them mark my backyard just to make sure there isn't anything unexpected in the ground in my backyard that we could be missing.

I told him that when the pool was dug (it was marked at that time) the owner of the excavator company was operating the equipment and cut into what he called an "old telephone line" that hadn't been marked. He dug up part of the line and rolled it into a ball and told me I could toss it away. But I do remember him saying he might not have got it all. I never thought much about it. He said at the time that was an old line and the phone company didn't use those anymore (This was 2017). But other than that, he moved on to digging the pool.

The electrician said, in theory, that could possibly be an issue so we want to see if the locator service can spot it and see if there is anymore of the line anywhere near the backyard- or anything else. So I have put in a request for them to mark the lines again and to make sure he checks the entire backyard.

Also, he was going to call someone he works with on pool electrical issues at the local electric utility and talk to them about it, explain what he saw, and get back to me. I talked to someone there as well but he's thinking maybe if he calls given he's an electrician, he can explain things better given he's talked to them a number of times.

But I do have the new pump now which was badly needed after looking at the old one, but doesn't seem to have been the main issue.

I already put in a request for the locator service to come by and mark the backyard. Got a return call and they said someone would be out next week by Wednesday.

 

[nuttyp]

Thanks for the update - Sounds like you found the right guy, that's great! Was he able to determine once and for all whether the offending rail is solidly bonded? In all the posts I forgot if that had been done and I can't get myself to read it all again - so I'm sorry if that's a repeat question. You've probably already perused many other similar posts and read through the Further Reading area, but at the bottom of that there are links to similar issue descriptions, some ongoing for a long time. Looking forward to the resolution, although probably not as much as you are

Troubleshooting a Tingle or Shock​

Finding stray voltage sources take a lot of detective work. Here are some threads to give you ideas of what you are looking for:
Here is a thread that has been going on for 6 years trying to find the source of a tingle - A Slight Shock.
Here the voltage source was a streetlight connected to the house power line Bonding Issue In A Pool.
Here the Power Company was called in and found the house neutral was damaged and sending current to ground - ELECTRICITY in the water! What could be causing it - how to stop it?

 

[Barry321]

Thanks for the update - Sounds like you found the right guy, that's great! Was he able to determine once and for all whether the offending rail is solidly bonded?

He did say he thought it might have a broken bond. From what he said, this seems to be his main thought. He tried several tests with a bond wire (his own) and my pool and handrails. It was 101 degrees here so we were all about to pass out.

But he wants me to get the locator service out next week to check the entire backyard as a troubleshooting measure first. He understands how big of a mess (financially and work wise) trying to cut up the concrete would be. Of course, I thing the first thing would be to pull up those 2 handrails and see what we have at that point.

Here is the thing:

I just walked out and hooked up the bonding wire back to the new pump- got 4.5 volts on both hand rails.

Took the bonding wire off the new pump- got 4.5 volts on both hand rails. Really not difference which is a lot different than last week (Last week one rail was 4-6 volts or so and the other was less than 0.1 when I removed the bond wire from the pump lug)

I was getting less than 0.1 volts on one hand rail before the new pump was installed.

When I measure the voltage at the new pump - just like the old pump, I get about 10-11 volts when I put one probe on the outside lug and the other on the loose bond wire. (This has to be coming from the house panel).

My wife thinks I'm losing my mind at this point. I think she's right.

 

[Barry321]

Troubleshooting a Tingle or Shock​

Finding stray voltage sources take a lot of detective work. Here are some threads to give you ideas of what you are looking for:
Here is a thread that has been going on for 6 years trying to find the source of a tingle - A Slight Shock.
Here the voltage source was a streetlight connected to the house power line Bonding Issue In A Pool.
Here the Power Company was called in and found the house neutral was damaged and sending current to ground - ELECTRICITY in the water! What could be causing it - how to stop it?

Thanks.
I've read one of these I think but I'm going to read them all.