SWG for Pool in a desert climate

[LifeInTheDesert]

Hi all - first post on TFP!

We live in Tucson, Arizona, and are in the process of finalizing our pool-build agreement (in other words, nothing has been dug yet). We are first-time pool owners and have a lot to learn about owning/operating a pool. For context, we're planning to build a 12'x38' pool with spa. Just under 10,000 gallons. 4-5.5' Deep.

The builder we're using is pushing us to use a Hayward HydraPure UV and Ozone system, or basically anything BUT Salt, despite us asking for a SWG (I have super sensitive skin). Since the builder is a Hayward dealer, and can't or won't help us source brands not named Hayward. This means we'll have to use a third party installer for anything not under Hayward's brand. Is there a Hayward SWG system that doesn't suck? I haven't heard anything good about the brand on various forums; many service techs claim Hayward is the number one brand that requires repair but perhaps others have more positive experiences.

I checked out the recommended Salt Water Generators on the discountsaltpool website using their "wizard" and the best overall option based on our location, usage, pool size were all by CircuPool. If you have any advice to share about CircuPool or any other brands, I would be very grateful.

EDITED TO ADD: Please see my other response below for the complete pool details per our PB's quote.

Thank you!
LifeInTheDesert

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!
A Hayward Aquarite T15 should work well. I assume you will have an automation system of some level and it will seamlessly work with it if Hayward. Do not get the UV Ozone thing. Truly useless in the desert.
Most important is using softened water for your autofill line. Do that if at all possible.
I suggest you read through Pool Care Basics - Trouble Free Pool and even look at a few of our videos TFP-TV - Trouble Free Pool

 

[Jimrahbe]

L,

I am a very biased Pentair kind of guy, but.....

The Hayward T15 salt cell is one of the best salt cells around.. Not sure who told you that they were not good, but they are full of Bull Feathers..

Get the Hayward T15 salt cell and tell your builder to stuff the UV and Ozone where the sun does not shine...

I "assume" that your pool will have a VS pump.. If not, tell your pool builder to move up into this Century!

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[proavia]

List all the builder proposed equipment, including model numbers.
Also, post the proposed plan with plumbing and electrical.
We can suggest additions/deletions that will suit your desert environment.

As Marty suggested, a water softener for your autofill (and whole house) is essential. Out water in the desert southwest is hard. You will be doing a full drain/refill every year or two. A water softener plumbed to the autofill line will alleviate that.

 

[reggiehammond]

It's your pool, and you're paying for it. I don't understand the builders that won't do as you ask.
Be forceful and tell them who is boss. It's not them.

 

[wireform]

The uv and ozone is bogus equipment, the real deal is SWCG. Make sure you get minimum 2X pool gallon capacity and with 10k I'd even go for 3X = 30k capacity.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Hello fellow Tucsonan.

I’m curious, who’s the builder? SWGs are perfect in this climate and any kvetching about salt and corrosion and blah, blah, blah, is simply either ignorance on their part OR self-dealing … they want to sell you the UV/ozone because they make more off it and leave you with substandard sanitation.

Sounds like you know the drill but Injust wanted to say don’t be deterred, go SWG or don’t bother building a pool. You’d have to pry mine from my cold, dead hands …

 

[Newdude]

many service techs claim Hayward is the number one brand that requires repair

They are arguably the largest brand, so. Yeah. Lol.

Welcome to TFP !!!

 

[Jimrahbe]

many service techs claim Hayward is the number one brand that requires repair

L,

For the most part, there is just nothing to "repair" on a salt cell. They tend to work, or they don't work.. Most salt cells of all brands last about 5 to 7 years. The bigger the cell, and the smaller the pool, the longer they last.

As far as failures go, my pull it out of my rear guess is that 75% of all "reported" SWCG failures are not failures at all, and are just the result of pool owners not having a clue how they work, or how to use them.

Those of us with saltwater pools would rather give up our first born child, then give up our SWCG's...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

If you review the Wikis for the Hayward Aquarite, Jandy Aquapure and Pentair IntelliChlor SWGs you will find the most extensive problems with the Aquarite. That does not mean the Aquarite sucks. It does show the differences in design between the various systems.

And the Aquarite has been out for many years through various design revisions as Hayward has seen its problems and improved the design. The new system you buy today will not have all the problems others with older systems deal with.

The Aquarite system has a separate electronics control box that you try and reuse as cells are depleted and replaced.

The Pentair IntelliChlor totally replaces all the electronics when the cell is replaced.

Over time the Aquarite board ages and has problems while the Intellichlor gets new electronics with every new cell. Eventually the Aquarite electronics also need to be repaired or replaced. If you replaced the Aquarite electronics with each cell, or maybe every other cell replacement, you will find the system to be solid.

I happen to like Pentair's design decision to replace the electronics with the cell. And I prefer design decisions Pentair has made in their automation, VS pump, and other equipment.

Hayward Aquarite SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Jandy AquaPure SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Pentair Intellichlor ICXX SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

Thank you so much to everyone who has responded! You've given us a peace of mind that going with an SWG isn't a bad decision.

List all the builder proposed equipment, including model numbers.
Also, post the proposed plan with plumbing and electrical.
We can suggest additions/deletions that will suit your desert environment.

As Marty suggested, a water softener for your autofill (and whole house) is essential. Out water in the desert southwest is hard. You will be doing a full drain/refill every year or two. A water softener plumbed to the autofill line will alleviate that.

Per proavia's request:​

Here are the details per the PB's quote:

Pool with Steps, Bench and Lagoon
Gallons: 9,947
100 Lf Perimeter 400ft2 Surface Area
L: 38’ W :12’ Depth of 4’ – 5’6”

Custom Designed 6’ x 7’ Flush Spa with Twin 1’6” Covered Spillways to Pool
26Lf Perimeter 42ft2 Surface Area Spa Depth of 3’6”
Gallons: 553

Custom Contoured Bench and Steps Per Plan
INTERIOR FINISH: Pebble Sheen, Pebble Fina, Sparkle Quartz, Micro Fusion, Commerical Quartz from America's Finest or PebbleTech

STANDARD ITEMS:
Plans, Permits, Engineering & HOA
Cat Assist Excavation
Steel Reinforced, Pneumatically Applied Shotcrete
(3+) Surface Returns
Upgraded Glass Tile
Clean Yard of All Construction Debris and Redress Access Area
Complete Start-Up Instructions by Certified Technician
Maintenance Kit (16’ Telescoping Pole, Brush, Net, Start-Up Chemicals, Test Kit)
EQUIPMENT
Polypropylene Autofill with Plastic Float
Venturi Para Skimmer
2 Hide-It Lids (We Need To Find A Place For These)
Filter: 425ft2 Cartridge
Pump: Hayward TriStar 950 Variable Speed (3HP)
Hayward 400,000 BTU PROPANE Heater
Blower Unit: 1HP
6 Spa Therapy Jets
Color Logic LED Pool Light 8” / Color Logic LED Pool Light 5”
Color Logic LED Spa Light 5”
Pre-Cast Equipment Pads
Automatic Time Clock Operation

CLEANING SYSTEM: Paramount PV-3 In-Floor Cleaning System with MDX-R3 Drain (Pool Only) -- $7,400
We realize we don't HAVE to use this but we're pretty anti-vacuum and hoses.
We don't have any large trees around the pool but we do live in the desert (dirt, dusty, sandy, gravel rocks) and hope the in-floor system will work well. Also - PB said that the vacuum won't be able to travel up to get to the steps and bench.

BASE PRICE EXCLUDING TAXES -- $86,720 includes the In Floor System

----------------------------

EXTRAS/OPTIONS (Total $8125)

POOL DEMO
Install Eclipse or PUL Drain in Spa -- $515
Install Omni PL Automation with Built-in Wi-Fi and Smart Device Control -- $3,490
Install Hayward AquaRite T15 Salt Cell -- $1,500 (PB finally spec'd one for us)

DEMO
Pre-grade Build Envelope Removing All Plants and Debris -- $2800

COPING -- 118 ft2 on a 4” Raised Beam $2,380
Here is a photo example for reference of what we want. Admittedly, these are more common in places like California and countries like Italy and Portugal. It's done using a concrete/plaster-style coping. In my research, I've read that an acrylic mortar is better than stucco. The PB now wants us to have the coping done by a Third Party. He's been all over the place about this and is now suggesting we have the people who are installing our new concrete walkways do the coping. The $2380 is if his team does it, but he really doesn't want to.

BASE + OPTIONS TOTAL $94,845

WARRANTIES
2-Year Full Coverage
3-Year Parts and Labor on All Hayward Equipment
4-Year Parts and Labor on Hayward Expert Line Pump
5-Year Pebble Tec Warranty or
7-Year America’s Finest Warranty on Interior
Lifetime Warranty on In-Floor Cleaning System
Lifetime Structural Guarantee

The Pool Builder is also doing a privacy wall that is running an additional $33K. So all in, we're spending $135K incl. tax.

Thank you again for all your help!! We welcome any advice.
-LITD

 

[mknauss]

Automatic Time Clock Operation

You really do not want to build this pool without some form of automation.

Be sure you have 2 or 3 normal wall returns. You will only want to run the IFCS for a few hours a day, then switch to normal wall returns for the balance of run time to generate your chlorine.

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

You really do not want to build this pool without some form of automation.

Be sure you have 2 or 3 normal wall returns. You will only want to run the IFCS for a few hours a day, then switch to normal wall returns for the balance of run time to generate your chlorine.

The PB has the automation system noted under "EXTRAS/OPTIONS". He's spec'd a Hayward product: Install Omni PL Automation with Built-in Wi-Fi and Smart Device Control -- $3,490

I'm not sure what you mean by wall returns. Are those not listed in his quote? Maybe they are called something else? Sorry, total newb.

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

Hello fellow Tucsonan.

I’m curious, who’s the builder? SWGs are perfect in this climate and any kvetching about salt and corrosion and blah, blah, blah, is simply either ignorance on their part OR self-dealing … they want to sell you the UV/ozone because they make more off it and leave you with substandard sanitation.

Sounds like you know the drill but Injust wanted to say don’t be deterred, go SWG or don’t bother building a pool. You’d have to pry mine from my cold, dead hands …

Hello! I was hoping you might respond. I'd rather not out the PB on this forum. Is it possible to DM you through this site?

 

[ajw22]

Hello! I was hoping you might respond. I'd rather not out the PB on this forum. Is it possible to DM you through this site?

Click on his picture to the left and then Start Conversation.

 

[mknauss]

I'm not sure what you mean by wall returns. Are those not listed in his quote? Maybe they are called something else? Sorry, total newb.

(3+) Surface Returns

This might be them. You need to be sure the plumbing is such that you have an automated valve so that you can switch between the IFCS and the 'surface returns'.

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

Hello fellow Tucsonan.

I’m curious, who’s the builder? SWGs are perfect in this climate and any kvetching about salt and corrosion and blah, blah, blah, is simply either ignorance on their part OR self-dealing … they want to sell you the UV/ozone because they make more off it and leave you with substandard sanitation.

Sounds like you know the drill but Injust wanted to say don’t be deterred, go SWG or don’t bother building a pool. You’d have to pry mine from my cold, dead hands …

I sent you a DM!

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

List all the builder proposed equipment, including model numbers.
Also, post the proposed plan with plumbing and electrical.
We can suggest additions/deletions that will suit your desert environment.

As Marty suggested, a water softener for your autofill (and whole house) is essential. Out water in the desert southwest is hard. You will be doing a full drain/refill every year or two. A water softener plumbed to the autofill line will alleviate that.

I listed the pool equipment as you suggested. Would you mind taking a look? It's in one of my other comments in this thread. Thank you!

 

[LifeInTheDesert]

Hey everyone,

The PB has finally spec'd a salt system for our pool, specifically, the Hayward AquaRite T15 Salt Cell ($1,500.) He said as a result, we'd need to delay installing the salt system:

We need to revert back to the Omni PL to automate it. Be advised salt systems are not installed until 45 days after the initial fill in order to allow things to cure, equalize, etc. before getting fancy with the water chemistry. After speaking with the ops team, it’s for the best if we just install these things for you. Automation and salt systems are touchy and their performance is critical. A malfunction could damage the pool and warranty issues could get messy.

Does the above sound right -- delaying the install of the salt system?

And just for reference, the Omni system he is referring to is this one --
Install Omni PL Automation with Built-in Wi-Fi and Smart Device Control $3,490

Considering he's been against installing a SWG, what are your thoughts about the Hayward system he spec'd? Is the AquaRite T15 a solid choice for our particular build?

He is also suggesting we have our concrete pool coping done by the people who are doing our concrete walkways "so they'll match" but then goes on to say -

Just be advised that concrete coping and salt pools aren’t the best combination.

Considering an Owner Build ---
Over the weekend, we spoke with a guy who acts as a GC on a pool build for a flat fee, helping you hire all the subs and get through the permitting process. We had hoped he might be a good alternative as he positions himself as someone who can help you "get the pool you want for less". Ironically, the first thing out of his mouth was, "If you want a salt system, I can't help you." He went on to talk about how bad salt is, corrosion issues, etc but was happy to pitch us a non-salt system and in-floor cleaners that he admittedly would make a commission on. I have NO issues with someone making a living, I just found it hilarious because he turned out to be no different than the traditional pool companies.

Pool builders' aversion to salt systems is so weird, especially when it sounds like so many of you really enjoy them.

Would love any further feedback from the group.

Thank you!

 

[mknauss]

It is common practice to wait 30 days after filling to start a SWCG. Not a big deal if this build is during this winter as the SWCG will not work with water temperature under 55F or so.
The T15 and that automation is fine. Second to a Pentair system, but you said you had to stick with Hayward.

The aversion to salt water pools typically comes from customers that have no interaction with the operation and maintenance of their pool. Most pool service companies have little clue about true water chemistry. So the system and water chemistry is improperly managed and the customer complains. Corrosion is a joke. That comes from low pH. Normally from over use of trichlor tablets.