New Pool - SE Pennsylvania

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onBalance said:
Polishing and sanding may work, but will be very difficult and time consuming because at least an eighth inch layer of plaster will have to be removed in order to and remove the white discoloration and restore the original color. The thickness of typical plaster is about a half inch.
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onBalance, when he tried to polish out the damage his crew caused to my plaster, my contractor got into the aggregate right quick, I want to say less than 1/8" down, and left a nasty blemish that neither looked nor felt like the surrounding plaster. It looked like very tiny pebbles, like miniature aggregate. Which is why I've been telling others here that plaster has a cream layer and aggregate layer below that. Do I have that wrong? If so, and it wasn't exposed aggregate I was feeling, what was that? It wasn't gunite (I don't think), because they didn't polish very deep at all, but it definitely wasn't plaster alone, either.
 
onBalance said:
Obviously, this is a result of improper and poor workmanship and carelessness, and not by improper water balancing.
The white footprints cannot be caused by getting into the pool after the pool has been filled with water. The damage was done prior to the pool being filled.
An acid wash will not fixed the problem, and as has been mentioned, it makes things worse in the long run.

Polishing and sanding may work, but will be very difficult and time consuming because at least an eighth inch layer of plaster will have to be removed in order to and remove the white discoloration and restore the original color. The thickness of typical plaster is about a half inch.
As has been mentioned, there are various ways to pressure the PB into making good on your pool. Push for it. And re-plastering may be the only appropriate remedy.

Here is a link to an article if your pool is re-plastered. A Plastering 'Watch List' | Professional Watershaping | Watershapes
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These are the words from a plaster expert! He is who we turn to with questions and concerns like this. You can take what he has to say to the bank!
 
Dirk,
There is a common misconception about the so-called "cream layer."
Properly troweled plaster, whether it contains typical marble or quartz aggregate, should not have a creme layer of cement over the top of the aggregate. The reason for that is that a layer of cement only (known as laitance) is weak and somewhat porous. Skilled finishers will remove that laitance while troweling.
However, depending on the troweling method, a very thin (a sheet of paper) cement creme may exist at the surface. That very thin layer may dissolve away during the first year through normal wear.
If the sanding of your pool exposed some aggregate that was different and led to some blemishes or inconsistencies, then I believe some bad material got added to the plaster mix and was the cause of that problem.
When sanding a plaster finish, the aggregate is also being sanded away along with the cement material. If done right, sanding plaster will leave a very smooth, dense, hard, and discoloration-free surface. Essentially, that is how a plaster surface is after properly troweling it.
 
If u get a replaster which u should push for first thing after spring arrives. You so t want to be up against our winter closing with very new plaster. Spring would allow a nice window to get the plaster somewhat cured. At least ph in order decently before closing when we can’t vac or add chemicals very reliable in the winter. I know I always se to be saying this but in the winter we really can’t fix a chemical problem so better to put the plaster to sleep with as much curing time under ur belt to prevent opening up to more issues.
 
Going to push for a re-plaster. I hope the PB stands behind his work and reputation as I don't have a ton of leverage. He is the premier guy in the area.

We wanted to go with pebble during the original build, but the PB had it as about a $8-9k adder. I asked the plaster co when they were out last fall what the cost of a pebble re-plaster and he rough quoted me $5-6k (if my memory holds true). Even the plaster guy was frustrated at the cost the PB tries to pass on for a pebble upgrade. I know everyone has to make money, but the up charge by the PB seemed a little insane. Can't imagine startup for the PB on pebble is that much more involved than standard plaster.

Definitely agree that any re-plaster should take place in the spring. Not going to risk letting it sit all winter covered up and not being able to maintain the chemicals.

I appreciate everyone's replies and kind words. I expect to hear something from the PB tomorrow.
 
onBalance said:
Dirk,
There is a common misconception about the so-called "cream layer."
Properly troweled plaster, whether it contains typical marble or quartz aggregate, should not have a creme layer of cement over the top of the aggregate. The reason for that is that a layer of cement only (known as laitance) is weak and somewhat porous. Skilled finishers will remove that laitance while troweling.
However, depending on the troweling method, a very thin (a sheet of paper) cement creme may exist at the surface. Generally, that very thin layer will disappear during the first year through normal wear.
If the sanding of your pool exposed some aggregate that was different and led to some blemishes or inconsistencies, then I believe some bad material got added to the plaster mix and was the cause of that problem.
When sanding a plaster finish, the aggregate is also being sanded away along with the cement material. If done right, sanding plaster will leave a very smooth, dense, hard, and discoloration-free surface. Essentially, that is how a plaster surface is after properly troweling it.
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My plaster finish definitely had some sort of cream layer, so I've been assuming that was normal. It was about 1/32" to 1/16" deep. The picture below, posted by the OP, has that one light spot in it. In addition to the sanding blemish left by my contractor's polishing effort, the pool was also blistering. Quarter-sized bubbles formed, that cracked and popped off, revealing the same aggregate layer underneath that the polished spot revealed. I had only mentioned that because the OP's pool seemed to have at least one of those same blisters, and I was warning about having his contractor try to sand out all his blemishes and footprints, which didn't work at all in my pool.

The first picture in this thread of mine shows what I was talking about. Not the blisters, but what I thought were chunks of the cream layer popping off (or burned off with acid). The second picture is the polishing damage, where you can clearly see the pebble aggregate revealed by the polisher.

The point of all that was to warn the OP that acid washing should not be considered, and that polishing can introduce it's own set of problems. onBalance has explained (thank you!) that polishing can be effective, assuming the plaster was installed correctly to begin with, but I can attest that is not always the case. Obviously the OP's plaster was not installed correctly, so trying to save it seems like it would be a lost cause.

Here's hoping rccarps2's contractor sees things as we all seem to...

20160518_193045.jpg

Is that a blister?
 
Dirk said:
My plaster finish definitely had some sort of cream layer, so I've been assuming that was normal. It was about 1/32" to 1/16" deep. The picture below, posted by the OP, has that one light spot in it. In addition to the sanding blemish left by my contractor's polishing effort, the pool was also blistering. Quarter-sized bubbles formed, that cracked and popped off, revealing the same aggregate layer underneath that the polished spot revealed. I had only mentioned that because the OP's pool seemed to have at least one of those same blisters, and I was warning about having his contractor try to sand out all his blemishes and footprints, which didn't work at all in my pool.

The first picture in this thread of mine shows what I was talking about. Not the blisters, but what I thought were chunks of the cream layer popping off (or burned off with acid). The second picture is the polishing damage, where you can clearly see the pebble aggregate revealed by the polisher.

The point of all that was to warn the OP that acid washing should not be considered, and that polishing can introduce it's own set of problems. onBalance has explained (thank you!) that polishing can be effective, assuming the plaster was installed correctly to begin with, but I can attest that is not always the case. Obviously the OP's plaster was not installed correctly, so trying to save it seems like it would be a lost cause.

Here's hoping rccarps2's contractor sees things as we all seem to...

View attachment 83476

Is that a blister?
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I think what you are looking at is the umbrella sleeve for the sun shelf. Not a blister. The plaster in general is very smooth.
 
OK, not blisters, whew. You can see my blisters (gross!) in the lower part of this pic. The white spots. Kinda looked like the spots on your shelf. In the upper part of the pic you can see the very prominent polishing damage (big white spot). All this damage began with an acid wash to "fix" my pool. Which is why I am now very much anti-acid-wash and anti-polishing. I think both those techniques can be used appropriately, by someone skilled in their application. I also think both those techniques are often used inappropriately, by "pool pros" who use them as a quick fix to mask or otherwise defer the real problem.

blisters.jpg
 
Yikes.....

So a few days ago I filled out the form "Ask the technical expert" on the National Plasterers Council website. I put in the same basic information as I did on here and was able to attach one picture.

A nice gentleman just called me to discuss my issues (will withhold his name, PM me if you would like to know). Started off very nice and went over the background of the pool and issues. The conversation progressed into him reading me section of various manuals. Then progressed into an analysis of my water test results where I was told that my water is "aggressive" due to its "Carbonate Alkalinity" score of "55". That aggressive water would cause carbonation and light colored spots to appear throughout the pool. Leeching various things out of the plaster. He said these spots are not workmanship defects, but are water composition issues. He continued on about he sees tons of footprints, trowel marks, hand prints and even "v" shaped hose marks from poor water chemistry after installation.

I politely asked about potential excess calcium chloride use, or late troweling, or wet troweling, or premature water-filling to be an issue. He immediately became very abrasive and verbally aggressive on the phone. Making statements like "you can't believe the internet", "why am I wasting my time", "I have 50 years in this industry", "I have visited over 10,000 pools", "examined over 50,000 pictures", " you can read Auschwitz didn't happen on the internet", " you can read George Bush launched planes into the towers on 9/11", and probably a few more statements I can't even remember. I even asked him to calm down as I don't know why you are getting upset and agressive, as I am just trying to educate myself. His reply was "you haven't even seen me aggressive yet". I was close to replying "Is that a threat?" as I don't take well to threats, but I bit my tongue.

I am really easy going and very non-confrontational on the phone. I was shocked at how quickly this guy came after me the moment I asked if it could be workmanship issues. I even said how the PB and Plaster Co. said that water chemistry does not seem to be the issue, and this guy still came after me basically calling me a POS.

In the end he said "send me more pictures" and then hung up. Arizona number, in Tempe from what I remember he saying at one point.

From my point of view this guy has a hot button for anyone thinking plaster issues aren't caused by water analysis. Not going to be sending him any pictures.

What just drives me nuts is his immediate jump to conclusion that water composition causes just about every problem with plaster. He literally said that to me on the phone. He was spinning out various numbers and ranges and readings so fast that he could have given me the recipe to my moms spaghetti and I wouldn't have noticed. My gut tells me his go to is just to spout off tons of random numbers and phrases to try and re-enforce his position of water balance issues.
 

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You have learned that someone in the industry rarely throws a collegue under the bus for a stranger. These industry councils are to protect the industry, not to help consumers.
 
ajw22 said:
You have learned that someone in the industry rarely throws a collegue under the bus for a stranger. These industry councils are to protect the industry, not to help consumers.
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So true. My Plaster Co. is a member of the NPC. I actually feel for the guy. His job is probably to answer questions and concerns and has to fight that battle everyday, regardless of presented information.

I have no doubt if I gave him water test results that were "perfect" in his eyes he would have spun it to still be a water issue.
 
ajw22 said:
You have learned that someone in the industry rarely throws a collegue under the bus for a stranger. These industry councils are to protect the industry, not to help consumers.
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Allen, thanks for the insight, I don't know why this didn't occur to me before. When my pool maintenance guy destroyed my pool with acid, he and I disagreed about liability (obviously!), so he sent a "third party plaster guy" to come out an assess the damage. My maintenance guy claimed it was a bad plaster job. The "third party guy," who claimed to be a big NPC mucky-muck, said my plaster was shot and most likely caused by poor water maintenance. Since my maintenance guy was in charge of the water since day one of the pool, and the same guy that burned the plaster off, that all worked in my favor, so I didn't research it beyond that (this was all before I met TFP). It didn't occur to me that the NPC guy was protecting the original installer, even while throwing the guy that sent him to my pool under the bus. They all deserve each other, as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry, just thinking out loud. The problem is, there is so much art and science mixed together in plaster installation and maintenance, with sometimes so many players involved, how can a consumer, or anybody, determine with any certainty who or what is to blame for a problem?
 
I would quietly do some poking around in the company to find out where your *new friend* is in the chain of command. I would then call back and ask to speak to the next person up.

Gurrrrrrrr ! How dare he talk to you like that!!!!
 
kimkats said:
I would quietly do some poking around in the company to find out where your *new friend* is in the chain of command. I would then call back and ask to speak to the next person up.

Gurrrrrrrr ! How dare he talk to you like that!!!!
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He is pretty high up. Googling his name shows some heated debates between him and OnBalance.

The whole situation is painful, and I am the one stuck in the middle. The moment I brought up a few points that I learned on here the guy went nuclear. All I was trying to do is ask a few simple questions. I wanted to see why he doesn't think it's poor workmanship, and for him to explain why. But the moment I showed any "anti-water caused this" the guy went postal.
 
Kim, you and I have joked about this before. As soon as they drag out the ol' "I've been doing this for xx years!" line, that's when they lose me. The higher the number, the less impressed I am. Just means to me that he learned his stuff that many more years ago, and probably hasn't bothered to learn anything since, including any more recent science that g-forbid might actually prove him wrong. People that actually know they know what they're doing do not offer up meaningless credentials.

The other math I use: The angrier they get when you confront them is indirectly proportional to their confidence in what they are saying.

Hey, I've been dealing with blowhard, know-it-all contractors for over 40 years, so I know what I'm talking about. Oh... wait... ;)
 
So the PB wrote me a little bit ago with pricing for a PebbleTec re-plaster.

Normal cost for PebbleTec on a new build - $12,800
Normal re-Plaster cost - $16,900
My cost - $9,620. That I am confirming includes everything. Drain, chip out, prep/bond coat, Pebbletec, fill water, startup and balancing.
 
rccarps2 said:
He is pretty high up. Googling his name shows some heated debates between him and OnBalance.

The whole situation is painful, and I am the one stuck in the middle. The moment I brought up a few points that I learned on here the guy went nuclear. All I was trying to do is ask a few simple questions. I wanted to see why he doesn't think it's poor workmanship, and for him to explain why. But the moment I showed any "anti-water caused this" the guy went postal.
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wait so was this guy a member here? since he had heated debates with onbalance?

anyway. . . so you are still going to have to pay for the replaster but at a "discount"?

man i feel so bad for you needing to go through all this.

oh btw what is the 55 number he was talking about? what reading is that. i don't remember talk about it on here? or am i missing something?

jim
 

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