Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

[Leebo]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

I am using a stirrer. I think it may be a timing issue? What's happening is that the pink turns to purple, and then kinda stops getting any bluer. So I put in an extra drop, to see if it'll go blue. Then another. Then stop. Thinking I'm done. Then a minute or so later it turns a much bluer color. So while I'm waiting a bit in between drops, I may have to wait a bit longer, to let the color develop. Anyway, at some point I kinda lose track of which drop actually made it turn blue, and so I have to kinda guess at the true CH number.

Are you on a well or city water???



Edit.......
Never mind, I see that answer now. Can read the following link,
Pool School - Calcium Hardness


The purple and pinks you’re seeing my point towards something slightly different. Give this a read and try looking for a “fading endpoint.”

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Are you on a well or city water???



Edit.......
Never mind, I see that answer now. Can read the following link,
Pool School - Calcium Hardness


The purple and pinks you’re seeing my point towards something slightly different. Give this a read and try looking for a “fading endpoint.”

"Fading endpoint." OK, at least now I know I'm not seeing things!!

I'll read that two more times (at least) and give it a try.

My case is slightly different than the article describes, though (I think). It goes from pink to purple, then kinda maxes out. Doesn't go back to pink, doesn't get any bluer. But a minute or so later, after I've stopped adding drops, after it just sits there still stirring, it goes to a bluer blue.

No matter, I'll try the "5 drops first" tip. Thanks for sending it!

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Good job! If/when you do a total drain and refill you will have to use the hard water line so kudos on keeping that.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Thanks. In my puny brain I'm imagining that by adding ONLY bleach and acid, like, forever (T-F-P, yah-bay-bee!), and topping off only with soft water, I'll never have to drain and fill again!!

But if the reality actually works out to be draining a little less often, and enjoying better pool water in between, then it will have been worth the work...

Keeping the hard water line was actually a no brainer. It's hard to see in the pic's, but that line actually continues on to a hose bib. So it was going to stay there anyway. All I did was T it into the autofill manifold, for about $20 extra.

 

[peirek]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Nice job and seems a great step to keeping your CH in check. While CH is important don't forget about pH (and TA). They have a big effect on CSI. When you have your SWG operating the general consensus is to keep CSI slightly negative to keep from getting scale build up in the cell.

The tabs are very acidic and while they drive the CYA up (we all have learned that the hard way) they can also drop the pH into the 6's. I am convinced that is what did my plaster in.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Nice job and seems a great step to keeping your CH in check. While CH is important don't forget about pH (and TA). They have a big effect on CSI. When you have your SWG operating the general consensus is to keep CSI slightly negative to keep from getting scale build up in the cell.

The tabs are very acidic and while they drive the CYA up (we all have learned that the hard way) they can also drop the pH into the 6's. I am convinced that is what did my plaster in.

"The puck stops here!!" Ooh, I'm going to trademark that!!

I replaced my tab feeder with a SWG. I'll never use another tab. Like you, and even before I found TFP, I determined that they were instrumental in the plaster's failure. My plaster guy told me that. He's a big muckie-muck in the Plaster Board (whatever that's called) so he'd know. He said they did a huge study on it (threw a lot of money at it), and that's what they came up with for plaster deterioration: bad water chemistry and CYA.

I've been fooling with Pool Math to learn about CSI, as I was curious what drives that. pH seems to be the biggest factor, but I tried out all the variables. Interesting stuff. I'm planning on pinging you guys when the time comes. When I add my salt, and get a decent CYA and CH test result, I was going to ask how best to move CSI. Good to know about a little negative. I would have guessed a little positive. I'll be asking about the give and take of it. What levels are more important to keep where, and which ones to mess with. Like I can dial in the CSI with pH, but at what point do your eyes feel that? Like that. Next spring I add salt and turn on the SWG. In the meantime I'm staying on top of the CSI as much as I can while bringing down my TA (I'm at 100, down from 260 (if Leslie's was right, I didn't have my K-2006 when the pool was first filled).

I haven't yet tested my city water. Would you happen to know? Could that TA have come only from the fill supply? Or was it a byproduct of the new plaster? Or both?

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

I know we are up to 5 pages for this thread - but Post #4 discussed keeping the CSI slightly negative. Also in that time frame we discussed that the curing plaster will not raise TA. Only your fill water or baking soda or soda ash.

Take care.

 

[peirek]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You definately want to measure your fill water a few times a year as I suspect it will change with the seasons.


---- Edit -----
Marty beat me too it. But the good news is I was accurate! 6 months ago I wouldn't even be able to understand the question.
--------------


TA came from the fill water. The plaster curing will raise the pH, not TA. Lowering the pH with MA will also slowly drop the TA. I been adding MA for several months now and my TA is still at ~70. I am targeting 60 to see if my pH will level off. I did intentionally drive up the TA as I did the bi-carb startup method. You can check my fun with the linky in my sig.

Want more fun? Go into PoolMath and at the bottom play with the Effects of Adding Chemicals section. Lots of ah ha info can be found there.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Ah, thanks for the reminder, Marty.

I'm learning a lot here, but with my old brain it doesn't all stick permanently!

I was actually trying to bring this thread to a close, as I've accomplished what I started it for. The software fill system and getting a handle on the first couple weeks of new plaster.

But then got off on a couple tangents. Do you have a preferred thread length here? Or a guide as to when to start a new one, elsewhere? I feel there's a lot of good info in this thread, but now it's buried pretty deep in my goings on!

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Keeping all relevant things in one thread is easiest. I would suggest you just use this one for the winter unless you come up with a question that is really not relevant to this process. Getting Started (forum this is in) typically does not get as deep as this one but that is OK.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You definately want to measure your fill water a few times a year as I suspect it will change with the seasons.


---- Edit -----
Marty beat me too it. But the good news is I was accurate! 6 months ago I wouldn't even be able to understand the question.
--------------


TA came from the fill water. The plaster curing will raise the pH, not TA. Lowering the pH with MA will also slowly drop the TA. I been adding MA for several months now and my TA is still at ~70. I am targeting 60 to see if my pH will level off. I did intentionally drive up the TA as I did the bi-carb startup method. You can check my fun with the linky in my sig.

Oh, man. Every time I get a question answered I need to ask two more!

OK, TA from fill. Got it. So can TA rise just as CH can when evaporated water leaves it behind? Does TA leave the pool? Or only go away with acid? In other words, once I get my TA to the target, will I be done with it, like CYA, or will it move around over time, like pH?

I have a whole-house water filter in front of my softener. Now I wonder if TA will get past either, or if filling with my filtered/softened water will help control both CH and TA.

And I think I've read that salt water requires constant added acid, for pH. If that's true, will that mean my TA will continue to drop, needing to be adjusted up at some point?

I dont' necessarily need these questions answered, my pool will tell me eventually! Hey, I know, why don't I get a good test kit and check all these levels once in a while and adjust them when they need it!?!

Want more fun? Go into PoolMath and at the bottom play with the Effects of Adding Chemicals section. Lots of ah ha info can be found there.

I use that a lot. Pool Math is an incredible resource. As a javascript coder, I can only imagine what went into that page to get it to work right!

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

The pH of your eyes is 7.5, I believe it is recommended to drop to 7.2 pH and to adjust back down at......7.6 or 7.8.... so the ph stays around your eyes pH.

This forum is one of the most relaxed that I visit, as long as you are using a proper test kit.

 

[kimkats]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Don't forget the water temp will play role in the CSI as well.

Dirk, go ahead and test your fill water and write it down and put inside you test kit. This will remind you when you add any water to the pool. In fact get a sample from both of your lines-softened and non softened just so you know.

I so understand where you are coming from. See I lost my first pool to the Pool $tore I listened to them and added what they told me to. Come to find out from what I have learned here my PH and CYA as well as everything else was so out of wack and high it "rotted" my liner I was in the pool when I found a crack on the bottom. I messed with it with my toe and the whole thing gave way!!! Thankfully I was right by the wall so I was able to grab it and get out before the water took me with it

You are going to have some long lasting plaster in a pool that will always look like a jewel! You are a true TFP person now! Just wait until you go to a motel and see the pool there..........ewwwwwwwwwwww to the max LOL

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

I only use 4 drops in my K1000 pH test. It helps me compare colors. Try it.

Waaay better! Thanks for the great tip!!

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Yes - add a half gallon of chlorine before you leave.

Your pH may rise. Right before you leave, test and drop the pH to 7.2.

Your and kimkats' advice was dead on! (Which I followed to the letter.) I had a nice three days away, and came back to FC3.5 and pH7.5. She lives!! Goosed the chlorine just now. EZ PZ.

I think I'll watch what the pH does for a week, and then resume the "Hunt for TA."

It stayed level at 100 while I was away. If pH continues to creep up on its own, I'll level with MA. And if that alone doesn't continue to nudge the TA down, I'll start in again with the aerating.

But as of right now, I'm feeling really good about the water and, I don't mind saying, my ability to maintain it. I have it in my head that if I stay on top of it everyday (or two), that I shouldn't get into any kind of emergency mode. And that's cool beans!! Basically, unless I've missed something, I (we!) just accomplished a pool plaster startup!!!

Thanks for all your help so far.

 

[kimkats]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

SWEET! It is almost like magic! Things you buy at the grocery store works like Pool Math and TFP says they will LOVE IT!

Glad you had a good time away and your pool was purrfect when you got back!

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

POOL STARTUP STRATEGY UPDATE:

Did my first salt test today. Confirmed Leslie's: ±500



So...

I'm on DAY 19 of new plaster/pebble startup.

I've turned down my pump interval. It's now running 12 hours instead of 24. I'm researching and the number of days to run 24/7 for new plaster is all over the place on the 'net. As I haven't had any visible plaster dust since DAY 1 (because of the initial acid wash), I felt 18 days of 24 hour filtering was enough.

At 33GPM flow rate, I have the water turning over just under twice a day (1.93 times, to be exact!).

My Rebel vac runs three hours a day (that's included in the 12 hour pump cycle).

And I still brush the pool everyday (right after I add MA).

I've removed all but one of my aerators. It's pretty weak (they spray better when all three returns are jammed up with my PVC aerators).

I've installed the eyeballs and have the water moving around the pool slowly. I thought having the pool water moving was at least as important as bringing down TA, so now that my TA is at 100, I can slow that process and get the water moving better than the aerators allowed.

My plan is to continue to bring down my TA, but more slowly. I'll still bounce between ph7.8->7.2 (or 7.7->7.3), aerating and adding MA at each end of the cycle. But that cycle is now more like days instead of half a day. I'm hoping, this way, my TA will approach 70-80 right around the time my new plaster is done messing with pH. That's based on virtually nothing but my newbie instinct, so I'm checking in with TFP to gather a consensus.

And I'll maintain my FC around 5, probably bouncing between 4 and 6 to minimize my efforts. Unless you all think it's more important to keep it at a steady 5 (or whatever number) as much as possible. Is 5 my target? Pool Math app keeps defaulting to 4. Marty had suggested 5 (CYA is 30).

I've got the pool topping off with soft water now (it's about CH 60 out of the softener).

I'm testing FC and pH and TA every day. CYA is based on adding 1 gal of CYA to my 12300 gal pool.

And now that I've read about Bulldogdave's leaf fiasco, I'm removing leaves from the pool and skimmer every day!!

Thoughts? Anything else I could be doing? Or doing different?

After the panic I was in around Day 2-4, now that I've been TFPing, it feels a little too easy! What did I forget?!?

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Just follow the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] based on non-SWCG pool. Target is 4-6. Aim for 6 when you add liquid chlorine and let drift down to 4 then add, repeat.

All else -- steady she goes!

Take care.

 

[kimkats]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You got it! Very solid plans!

Throw some ping pong balls in the pool to watch your water movement. The cats like to watch them too so LOL.........this will help you tweak the eyeballs to make sure you don't have any dead spots.

BulldogDave-the rest of the story was his pump was also out for 4 days AND the leaves came to visit so he did not stand a chance against the leaf soup! It is still a good idea to get the leaves up and out as much as possible to keep your new plaster from getting any stains.

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You got it! Very solid plans!

Throw some ping pong balls in the pool to watch your water movement. The cats like to watch them too so LOL.........this will help you tweak the eyeballs to make sure you don't have any dead spots.

BulldogDave-the rest of the story was his pump was also out for 4 days AND the leaves came to visit so he did not stand a chance against the leaf soup! It is still a good idea to get the leaves up and out as much as possible to keep your new plaster from getting any stainS.

Ping pong balls. Good one.

You bring up an interesting notion. I practice a lot of redundancy in my line of work. But haven’t given any thought about what to do if the pool filtration system fails. My Pentair dealer is a half hour away, so not too bad, but they’re not particularly responsive. And I won’t be on any preferred list now that they’ve been TFPed! What does one do when the pump stops working on a Friday night during the middle of a hot spell?

Ironically, I just sold my old two speed pump! Would one of those pool draining pumps be good to have on hand? Say, to move water from the deep end to the little end, until the repair guy shows up? Can you keep the chlorine level up without the water moving? The leaves were the fuel, but if BulldogDave had been able to keep up with the chlorine demand, would he have had just leaves to clean up, instead of the algae, too?

Just thinking out loud...