The Ultimate Thermometer

[Dirk]

When @Dirk does something he DOES it + some! Well done and great use of extra electronics.

Thanks. I thought the old iPhone mounted in the cabinet for access to both pool temp and Pool Math would get more applause. That's one of my favorite "inventions." I rarely carry my phone around at home, so having Pool Math always available at my "pool water testing station" is super convenient. You can't sell those things for spit, so I just repurpose them. I'm still using my 12-year-old iPad 1 (that's the bedroom temperature/weather display gizmo). The iPhone 5 is my pool water testing gizmo. And my iPhone 4 can still run my grocery list app, so that lives in a kitchen cabinet! I still have to find a use for my iPhone 1 (yah, I'm a pioneer! ) and my iPhone 3.

I wonder if you could put a 'cage" over the pool probe? I am seeing a domed pvc thingy. Maybe someone with a 3d printer could make one.

That's a great idea, and I'm a bit embarrassed I didn't think of that! So I fired up the printer and made one this morning. What do you think?



OK, just kidding (about the making, not the great idea). This is a garden drain pipe cover. I'm going to fit this one, or one like it, to the equalizer port! (Well, when the water warms back up I will!!) I'll make it break-away, so it won't torque the PVC port if someone kicks it or something else bangs into it, but it's just the ticket for keeping little paws from messing with the probe. WIth this, I could pull the probe out a bit more and maybe reduce temperature interference from the auto-filler well.

Thanks for the tip!!

 

[Dirk]

If you know the flow rate and the temperature rise, you can calculate the amount of heat a heater is putting out.

A gas heater has a known expected amount of heat that you can use as a comparison.

A solar heater has a variable heat output, so you don’t know how much it should put out, but you can still calculate how much it is putting out.

By watching relevant data such as how much solar radiation your roof gets, you can begin to develop a formula for expected heat output based on solar radiation.

For example a UV index is an indication of how much solar radiation is reaching the ground.

This, combined with other factors like the angle of the sun, can be correlated with the calculated heat output of the panels to allow for an expected heat output formula.

I'll have a make-shift version of this, eventually. I plan on accessing the EasyTouch data bus protocol. Some here know how to do that, so I'm counting on help figuring that out. Then my HA will know when the solar valve turns my heater on and off. I'll add that to my daily temperature history chart, and I'll be able to see when the heater is active plotted over the pool's temperature changes. If I can get at the EasyTouch's rooftop temp sensor reading, I could add that, too.

Of course, I can always just stick my hand in front of a return port and see if the water coming out of it feels warm! But that's a bit pedestrian... not really my style.

 

[rstrouse]

The upcoming 8.0 release of njsPC will include connectivity to the ScreenLogic adapter over the network so you can access your Touch controller without an RS485 adapter. This is in testing now and you can pull it from the 8.0.0 branch on Github if you want to try it out.

The current version, has a built in interface to Grafana and InfluxDB for graphing as much data as you like. As for home automation platform support, there is a Vera, Home Assistant, HomeBridge, SmartThings, and Hubitat interface already created. If you are using something like Indigo you can link it up either through sockets or MQTT. I also seem to remember Indigo having a direct interface to Grafana. The heater status transitions are already reported to Influx and can be plotted against your temperature charts. I plot the freeze protection cycles that way. The purple section indicates that IntelliTouch was in freeze protect mode during that time.



I have a Vera implementation and a Home Assistant currently running.

 

[JamesW]

I can always just stick my hand in front of a return port and see if the water coming out of it feels warm!

What, like a caveman?

I don't think so.

 

[Dirk]

The upcoming 8.0 release of njsPC will include connectivity to the ScreenLogic adapter over the network so you can access your Touch controller without an RS485 adapter. This is in testing now and you can pull it from the 8.0.0 branch on Github if you want to try it out.

The current version, has a built in interface to Grafana and InfluxDB for graphing as much data as you like. As for home automation platform support, there is a Vera, Home Assistant, HomeBridge, SmartThings, and Hubitat interface already created. If you are using something like Indigo you can link it up either through sockets or MQTT. I also seem to remember Indigo having a direct interface to Grafana. The heater status transitions are already reported to Influx and can be plotted against your temperature charts. I plot the freeze protection cycles that way. The purple section indicates that IntelliTouch was in freeze protect mode during that time.



I have a Vera implementation and a Home Assistant currently running.

Yes, I'm definitely after freeze mode, too. I love the notion of not needing another hardware component. I wouldn't mind limiting additional software components, too (I have no idea what Grafana and InfluxDB and MQTT are). But I'll bang my head against that problem once I get njsPC in place. I'm curious:

Does njsPC just get you what ScreenLogic communicates? Or everything EasyTouch? Example: The EasyTouch screen can report all three temperature sensors, while ScreenLogic only reports two (air and water). Missing from ScreenLogic is the third sensor reading: from the sensor on the roof when you have a solar heater. I have a use for that data.

And would that answer differ if there was an RS485 adapter or not?

 

[Dirk]

What, like a caveman?

I don't think so.

While I find all the raw data interesting, what I'm actually after is the practical aspect. In the case of pool temp, I want to know when I can turn my SWG back on, and when I should turn it off. Watching temperature trends over a week/month/year help me, practically, in that regard. And my house is programmed to tell me when the pool hits 80 (or any other temp I choose), so I don't even have to go check the interface to know it's time for a swim break.

Air temps, inside and out, help protect my citrus crop and keep my house comfortable while also keeping my energy use and its associated expense in check. Stuff like that.

Point is, yes, it's all very geeky, but I actually use this stuff to make my daily life easier, better and more efficient. I like building it, and pushing the boundaries of what's possible, that's "fun" for me, but it's all driven by an actual real-world purpose.

 

[rstrouse]

Yes, I'm definitely after freeze mode, too. I love the notion of not needing another hardware component. I wouldn't mind limiting additional software components, too (I have no idea what Grafana and InfluxDB and MQTT are). But I'll bang my head against that problem once I get njsPC in place. I'm curious:

The really good thing about having software components like this are that they give you really robust tools to craft how you manage your data. For instance I decided I wanted to see when my freeze protection was kicking on so I added the data to my chart in Grafana. Choosing the color took a minute or so and I was off to the races. InfluxDB is an open source time series database that keeps track of values over time. It is lightweight and can handle large amounts of data. Grafana is a visualization tool that digests the data and allows you to create charts and graphs of it using a point and jab interface. So if you want to plot the trends of pool temperature vs when the heater was running you can simply add those series to a chart to get the answer.

MQTT is simply a messaging software that things like Indigo use to integrate devices. You can for instance use MQTT to include all of your pool controls into Indigo. Given you have Autelis I assume that you are running Autelis to integrate into Indigo. Being an ex-Autelis user myself, my involvement with njsPC was to get away from all of these short lived devices and into something that would last as long as my home. My most recent foray is into Home Assistant to replace my Vera(s).

Each of these additional components are optional and do have some learning curves. On the flip side you will find very active communities behind all of them and since they are hardware independent and open source, I can reduce the rate at which my retired devices box gets filled up.

Does njsPC just get you what ScreenLogic communicates? Or everything EasyTouch? Example: The EasyTouch screen can report all three temperature sensors, while ScreenLogic only reports two (air and water). Missing from ScreenLogic is the third sensor reading: from the sensor on the roof when you have a solar heater. I have a use for that data.

And would that answer differ if there was an RS485 adapter or not?

I don't have ScreenLogic but the outputs I have seen do include Solar Sensor1 and separate water sensors on the IntelliTouch i10D. I think there are some items that are just not displayed on the app.

I do know that with an RS485 adapter there are even things that do not show up in EasyTouch but are part of the pool definition and display in njsPC/dashPanel.

 

[Dirk]

The really good thing about having software components like this are that they give you really robust tools to craft how you manage your data. For instance I decided I wanted to see when my freeze protection was kicking on so I added the data to my chart in Grafana. Choosing the color took a minute or so and I was off to the races. InfluxDB is an open source time series database that keeps track of values over time. It is lightweight and can handle large amounts of data. Grafana is a visualization tool that digests the data and allows you to create charts and graphs of it using a point and jab interface. So if you want to plot the trends of pool temperature vs when the heater was running you can simply add those series to a chart to get the answer.

MQTT is simply a messaging software that things like Indigo use to integrate devices. You can for instance use MQTT to include all of your pool controls into Indigo. Given you have Autelis I assume that you are running Autelis to integrate into Indigo. Being an ex-Autelis user myself, my involvement with njsPC was to get away from all of these short lived devices and into something that would last as long as my home. My most recent foray is into Home Assistant to replace my Vera(s).

Each of these additional components are optional and do have some learning curves. On the flip side you will find very active communities behind all of them and since they are hardware independent and open source, I can reduce the rate at which my retired devices box gets filled up.



I don't have ScreenLogic but the outputs I have seen do include Solar Sensor1 and separate water sensors on the IntelliTouch i10D. I think there are some items that are just not displayed on the app.

I do know that with an RS485 adapter there are even things that do not show up in EasyTouch but are part of the pool definition and display in njsPC/dashPanel.

OK, it sounds like the RS485 adapter (and hopefully njsPC 8) expose the EasyTouch data without ScreenLogic involved. Perhaps I can look at them as clients. Where both njsPC and ScreenLogic are "clients" of EasyTouch, and don't interact with each other. That would be my preference.

Given you have Autelis

I don't know what that is... so I don't know that I have it or not.

Thanks for the primer. Very helpful!

 

[rstrouse]

Oh I did what my mother used to do with me and my brothers. Call out all of our names in the hopes that the one she was trying to address would answer. @tucsontico is the one with Autelis which is an old RS485 connected hardware interface (now defunct) to the Pentair controllers. This had an API that could be used to integrate Pentair into home automation systems.

njsPC with an RS485 adapter exposes the EasyTouch data without ScreenLogic being involved.

 

[cj133]

And here all I want is a wireless outdoor thermometer that reads two sensors and reports whichever the lowest reading one is. So if one reads 85 and the other reads 75 the output is 75.

Reasoning is the front of the house gets sun in the late afternoon, but the back of the house gets sun in the morning. I chose where it's less likely to have issues, but it still does.

 

[Flying Tivo]

 

[Dirk]

And here all I want is a wireless outdoor thermometer that reads two sensors and reports whichever the lowest reading one is. So if one reads 85 and the other reads 75 the output is 75.

Reasoning is the front of the house gets sun in the late afternoon, but the back of the house gets sun in the morning. I chose where it's less likely to have issues, but it still does.

Before this setup, I had two outdoor sensors (they came with digital alarm clocks). One sensor in the back, the other on the side. There was a significant difference.

Now I just have the one. I chose my backyard because that's where I hang out. And in fact, I located the sensor under the patio overhang where I most often sit. I figure that's the temperature that most matters. I originally struggled with numbers from a local NOAA weather station (even when they were available), because just a few miles away in any direction makes a big difference, sometimes 5-10 degrees.

It's all relative. So do I need to know it's exactly 75° outside? No. I just need to know what my day is going to be like. If I see 70°, I know I can go do some gardening. If I see 80°, I know I can only work on the shady side of the house. If I see 95°, I'm gunna stay inside and take care of the week's mail! Like I said, it's interesting to see the numbers on a chart, but really my use for the temperature readings is more practical.

And you probably know, but just in case, for outdoor ambient air temperature, you have to locate the sensor in the shade. As I mentioned, under an eve didn't work for me because the eve was collecting heat from my BBQ. You might have to experiment a bit for the ideal location.

 

[cj133]

Before this setup, I had two outdoor sensors (they came with digital alarm clocks). One sensor in the back, the other on the side. There was a significant difference.

Now I just have the one. I chose my backyard because that's where I hang out. And in fact, I located the sensor under the patio overhang where I most often sit. I figure that's the temperature that most matters. I originally struggled with numbers from a local NOAA weather station (even when they were available), because just a few miles away in any direction makes a big difference, sometimes 5-10 degrees.

It's all relative. So do I need to know it's exactly 75° outside? No. I just need to know what my day is going to be like. If I see 70°, I know I can go do some gardening. If I see 95°, I'm gunna stay inside and take care of the week's mail. Like I said, it's interesting to see the numbers on a chart, but really my use for the temperature readings is more practical.

And you probably know, but just in case, for outdoor ambient air temperature, you have to locate the sensor in the shade. As I mentioned, under an eve didn't work for me because the eve was collecting heat from my BBQ. You might have to experiment a bit for the ideal location.

Yeah, that's the issue I have.
There's no place around my house which is shade all day every day. Ergo, the reason I want two sensors and just to pull the lowest reading.

For a pool thermometer, and many think I'm nuts, I just use my hand. If it feels cold, it's cold.
Except for recently where I started using 2 thermometers to keep an eye on the possibility of freezing.

 

[Dirk]

You could build some shade. Literarily. Like a box. Anything that keeps the sensor out of direct sun but allows air to circulate. Even a thick bush (though something solid is better). You have to account for exterior walls, especially stucco. They can skew the ambient air temp. Mine is located under my patio cover, away from the house, and away from the roof. It's about 18" from the roof and about 12' from the house, and gets plenty of air. Because of the twin beams, there is no way for the sun to get at it.

If you can't find a spot like this, grab a couple of pieces of wood and make one!

 

[tucsontico]

Thanks! Indigo (MacOS and iOS only, they don't develop for any other platforms).

What makes this all possible is Indigo's interface customization capability, third party plugin support (that's how I get NOAA data), and python scripting support.

Indigo's built-in capabilities are very robust, but if the developers didn't include something, a third party developer probably made a plugin for it. And if that still doesn't get you what you want, you can turn to python scripting and roll your own. I counted them the other day, I have over 200 python scripts. Most of them just short one or two liners, but some are pages long. Some were developed and improved over years.

The javascript and html I ether figured out or swiped from elsewhere (usually W3Schools or Stack Overflow).

I've been goofing with HA for some 40 years now (geez, that's rough to say out loud). I started with two X-10 modules and an X-10 button controller. Older than old-school, baby! Pre-school? Maybe pre-old-school?

View attachment 463987View attachment 463988

I'm running Indigo as well. Recognize the X-10 lamp module and the controller! I, too started with X-10 then migrated to Indigo as I've been an Apple convert (fanboy?) since 1987. Not near as adept at scripting as I should be. Need to PM you sometime regarding your HA setup. Since Smarthome went out of business I've been transitioning to Z-Wave devices. Keep up the great geek work!

 

[rstrouse]

I have been through a lot of different platforms over the years starting with X10 and 433Mhz EnOcean then burned through 3 Vera versions and OpenHab. I have recently begun fiddling with Home Assistant. While it started out looking like it was going to be a huge learning curve. It turned out to be an act of installing software.

I have not messed around with it but there is a home assistant bridge to Indigo as well as direct X10 support libraries. This might give you a path if you are looking to move. I fully expected coding to get started but it recognized every TV, receiver, homekit, phone, DirecTV and AppleTV in the house. And it just worked.

I installed a Z-wave dongle and was blown away at how good it was with healing the network and reporting the strength of the network. For once I finally found a platform that works with all the command classes from the 300 all the way up to the 700 series chips. Since all the device definitions are done in metadata, they add support for many of them long before the others get around to it. I have almost 200 devices to convert so we will see how it all works together.

 

[Dirk]

I got rid of all the X-10 long ago. And I finally got rid of all the power-line-only stuff too, except a couple of stragglers. That's when my automation really started working well. Finally! I'm 100% Insteon still, and now that they are all dual technology (power line + RF), I rarely get drops. I am slightly future-proofed (near-future proofed?) because I caught wind of the Insteon debacle early enough to grab a slew of devices. I have quite an inventory of spares. And I've stumbled on a few articles that describe how to fix a few of the most common module failures, so I'm hoping I'll be able to Frankenstein a few modules here and there if it comes to that. There is a group trying to buy and revive Insteon, fingers crossed. If I Iater decide to move to some other protocol, I could probably sell my Insteon stuff for a fortune. The last few I bought were pretty pricey.

Indigo's weakness (major, IMO), is that it only supports Insteon, Z-wave and X-10 (and X-10 doesn't really count). I'm hoping the developers get their heads out and start expanding support. I may foray into Z-Wave, but I've heard it is an inferior product/protocol. Though to be fair I've never used it myself.

I had an extensive collection of AppleScripts, which I developed over years and years. And then Indigo dropped support (because Apple has let it languish and won't fix its bugs). I was none too happy and dreaded relearning another scripting language. Indigo chose Python, and because of my background in AppleScript and php and a few others, I picked up Python pretty quickly. I'm now semi-proficient and have been able to get some amazing things working.

The reality is, nothing lasts forever and these products and brands and protocols are going to come and go. Ya gotta accept that as part of owning an HA system. It's constantly evolving, and so you also have to accept that some of the effort required to build and maintain a system might never reap an equal amount of time and effort saved by the automation. For me, building HA is a hobby I enjoy. The fact that it may later become a convenience, or save me time or money or effort, I treat as a happy bonus. I've also had to accept that, seen as a whole, HA is just an expensive appliance (a fussy one at that). You can cook on a $500 GE range, but you might prefer the "prestige" of a $30K Viking Tuscany Range. I can still get off my butt to turn off the living room lights and turn on my TV and receiver and start my movie, but I really like not having to!!

@tucsontico, I'd be happy to help if I can. I can at least point you in the right direction if I can't.

 

[tucsontico]

I got rid of all the X-10 long ago. And I finally got rid of all the power-line-only stuff too, except a couple of stragglers. That's when my automation really started working well. Finally! I'm 100% Insteon still, and now that they are all dual technology (power line + RF), I rarely get drops. I am slightly future-proofed (near-future proofed?) because I caught wind of the Insteon debacle early enough to grab a slew of devices. I have quite an inventory of spares. And I've stumbled on a few articles that describe how to fix a few of the most common module failures, so I'm hoping I'll be able to Frankenstein a few modules here and there if it comes to that. There is a group trying to buy and revive Insteon, fingers crossed. If I Iater decide to move to some other protocol, I could probably sell my Insteon stuff for a fortune. The last few I bought were pretty pricey.

Indigo's weakness (major, IMO), is that it only supports Insteon, Z-wave and X-10 (and X-10 doesn't really count). I'm hoping the developers get their heads out and start expanding support. I may foray into Z-Wave, but I've heard it is an inferior product/protocol. Though to be fair I've never used it myself.

I had an extensive collection of AppleScripts, which I developed over years and years. And then Insteon dropped support (because Apple has let it languish and won't fix its bugs). I was none too happy and dreaded relearning another scripting language. Indigo chose Python, and because of my background in AppleScript and php and a few others, I picked up Python pretty quickly. I'm now semi-proficient and have been able to get some amazing things working.

The reality is, nothing lasts forever and these products and brands and protocols are going to come and go. Ya gotta accept that as part of owning an HA system. It's constantly evolving, and so you also have to accept that some of the effort required to build and maintain a system might never reap an equal amount of time and effort saved by the automation. For me, building HA is a hobby I enjoy. The fact that it may later become a convenience, or save me time or money or effort, I treat as a happy bonus. I've also had to accept that, seen as a whole, HA is just an expensive appliance (a fussy one at that). You can cook on a $500 GE range, but you might prefer the "prestige" of a $30K Viking Tuscany Range. I can still get off my butt to turn off the living room lights and turn on my TV and receiver and start my movie, but I really like not having to!!

@tucsontico, I'd be happy to help if I can. I can at least point you in the right direction if I can't.

Dirk,

Thanks for the offer! I have about 40 Insteon devices and 10 Z-wave on my Indigo HA system. I've used the Z-wave to replace my failing Insteon stuff (mostly switches and motion sensors.) The Z-wave devices seem to be working pretty well. Cannot speak to their longevity as most have only been installed in the last 9-12 months.

I, too, have a small stash of Insteon products but the critical item is the PLM. When mine dies (and it will), I have no backup. I'm impatiently waiting for Apple to release their proposed HA system tentatively called "Matter". I'm also looking at a the HA system "Savant" because I'm growing weary of the care and feeding of my DIY HA system (so is my wife!). My family doesn't share my joy in geeky stuff and I won't be around forever!

 

[Dirk]

Dirk,

Thanks for the offer! I have about 40 Insteon devices and 10 Z-wave on my Indigo HA system. I've used the Z-wave to replace my failing Insteon stuff (mostly switches and motion sensors.) The Z-wave devices seem to be working pretty well. Cannot speak to their longevity as most have only been installed in the last 9-12 months.

I, too, have a small stash of Insteon products but the critical item is the PLM. When mine dies (and it will), I have no backup. I'm impatiently waiting for Apple to release their proposed HA system tentatively called "Matter". I'm also looking at a the HA system "Savant" because I'm growing weary of the care and feeding of my DIY HA system (so is my wife!). My family doesn't share my joy in geeky stuff and I won't be around forever!

Yah, building an HA system is one thing, but making it user-friendly for anyone else is the real challenge.

I was busy with guests this past 4th of July, and suddenly every light in my house turned on. I was all "What the..." So I head for my wall-mounted control pad and there's my buddy staring at it, desperately trying to reverse what he had done! I take over and straighten it all out. He had pushed my "panic" button labeled "Lights." Well, I know what that means! And he was all "Why would you have a button named Lights that turns on all your lights?" I let the logic of that question pass, and I'm all "Why are you messing with my system?" To which he replies "Well, I was trying to get a light turned on over the food on the patio table 'cause it's getting dark out." Whaddayagunnado?

I've done some work in this area, but primarily in the use department. No one but me could ever maintain this monster. I feel for the next owner! I've considered writing a manual of sorts, but that would be a massive undertaking. I had maintained a "help" page for a while, mainly because even I was losing track of what did what. But I mod my system so often that I've let it languish. I worry about how I will be able to maintain all this when I get older. Am I always going to remember how to code in Python when I'm 90?! Or next week??!! I try to comment my code, but that is quite a chore and takes discipline that I don't always have time for. I keep some notes (Indigo allows for some), but only I can decipher most of them.

I think I have a spare PLM, I lose track of what I've got in stock. There's nothing to be done about that now, everything is bought up, I think. But I seem to recall that one of the repair articles I stumbled across was about the PLM. A capacitor repair, I think. My memory is about as reliable as my HA! Point was, before you abandon your entire system if your PLM dies, do some research on its repair. I expect there will be more and more "how to" YouTubes popping up, as more and more of them poop out.

I just fixed a $1200 10-year-old laser printer for $150 bucks and 10 minutes in front of a YouTube video describing exactly how to do it. I saved probably $400 fixing my washing machine via YouTube, it was just a quick solder trick that someone had posted. YouTube will save us all! Well, from our Insteon failures maybe...

 

[Katodude]

Well dont despair too much, that group you mentioned did end up buying Insteon and their servers are back to life. You do have to pay them a fee to use the servers, but it is fairly nominal (something like $35 a year). They also now have stock of the controller so if yours fails it can be replaced. I believe they are trying to get more stock of all the other stuff. Anyway at worst it’s breathed a few more years of life into my Insteon.