Tanning ledge pool draining into main pool when pump is off

[TDTPool]

Happy to post more pics.
1074 is on the back side of the upper ledge pool. The upper ledge has 2 return lines, and one drain. I -thought- this was to control the 2 return lines, and choose where the water goes but I couldn't get it to move at all (I'd like too, as the pool is unevent so I'd like more water to go to lower side)
Very recently the drain started draining (reasonably high suction), 24/7. The only way to stop it is to have all returns pointed to the upper ledge (The valve in 1099). In this rotation I basically have it set to not send any water to the body of the pool.

I'm unsure how to troubleshoot this, though. I will say the check valve in 1099 is new, and my issue started right after it got installed, but I don't know if that is related.

Welcome any input, as I'd like to have pump circulation to the main pool, and not just all falling off the overflow.

 

[TDTPool]

My pool is vinyl liner, and the tanning ledge is plaster. The tanning ledge overflows into the pool.
I routinely check my water and treat it based on what is needed, but I am endlessly struggling with the tanning ledge. This is about 3 days of non-scrubbing. I am going to go out there and scrub all the algae (?) and everything else off, but I will still be left with plaster chipping, and green spots I just can't get out.
Does anyone have recommendations for how to treat this, or what I should add to the water to help the plaster side of it? The main pool looks really good, and its balance is usually good. This is just off-putting.

 

[dBsooner]

My pool is vinyl liner, and the tanning ledge is plaster. The tanning ledge overflows into the pool.
I routinely check my water and treat it based on what is needed, but I am endlessly struggling with the tanning ledge. This is about 3 days of non-scrubbing. I am going to go out there and scrub all the algae (?) and everything else off, but I will still be left with plaster chipping, and green spots I just can't get out.
Does anyone have recommendations for how to treat this, or what I should add to the water to help the plaster side of it? The main pool looks really good, and its balance is usually good. This is just off-putting.

What chemicals do you use? Those look like copper or iron stains.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

We need to understand what the entire system looks like, so we can try to understand how it should operate.

We need to see several pics of your pool(s) and several pics of your entire equipment pad.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

Thanks for reply - Will post in a bit with more pics. I notice it combined the two posts I had into one, so will add more explaination then also.

 

[Ahultin]

@TDTPool , label all of the pipes coming out of the ground in this photo to describe what they come from/go to and it will help everyone advise. I'm unclear on the intent of the second pump. It appears it uses the same suction and goes into the same returns (I.e. has the potential to push backwards thru the filter against the other pump)
On a side note - does the heater work? What's the story with the clearly bootleg gas line coming off of the sediment trap?

 

[TDTPool]

I'm unclear on the intent of the second pump

Tiny back-story; I bought this house before I closed the pool for winter, so a lot of this I am learning too. The best I could figure out is the second pump is meant to give more water flow to the 'tanning ledge'. I was told it could just high jets, etc. I will say the best I can figure out though is I have to block valves to make that work, and then it's no different than me just directing all water-flow to the top, anyway. It is basically always turned off ATM.

I have a loose understanding of how this all works, so I have labelled the image. (This image is also a bit older; I fixed that leak etc.)

A = line to tanning ledge.
B = line to main pool.
C = 'Flow valve'? (Is this called a valve?) ~75% to the left because I like the main pool to get circulation but I do like the waterfall overflow. Right now I keep it completely closed to B to stop this 'tanning ledge leaking into main pool.
D = Check valve I just had replaced. I don't believe this issue with it backfilling into the main pool happened before I had this replaced. They're recommending I add a check valve to B's side but that wouldn't make sense to me given how I think this works.
E = 3rd return inside of pool, meant for a Polaris vaccuum. I don't use the Polaris so I used to keep it closed, but now I keep it open in order to get more return to the pool. I wondered if this was my issue, but I've been doing this for 2 months, and the backfill issue is new.
F = I think this is just the intake from the pool, to the skimmer, back to the filter? That entire section I don't fullyt understand, but I know that's a skimmer I have to clean so I assume it's input from the pool. (Don't know it's technical name. Drain?)
G = The pump that is actually running majority of the time. I assume? It isn't the 'secondary pump' I keep off all the time.

On a side note - does the heater work? What's the story with the clearly bootleg gas line coming off of the sediment trap?

Reg. the heater - It does work, though it's extremely weak. I am thinking that yellow line is what goes inside to my living room fireplace. I never thought about it until you asked.

If I can answer anything else, happy too. Will offer full 360 pics as soon as I'm home. I'd like to spend some time this weekend to get it in a better spot.

 

[TDTPool]

https://imgur.com/a/cf3G54E

- Uploaded many images with context to Imgur.

One thing I am realizing is when the pump is on the return in the kiddie pool that I thought was the only thing 'leaking back to the main pool' when the pump is off, is actually a full return when the pump is on. So perhaps all 3 are leaking back? I'm really wondering if 'D' (check valve) from above is not working properly, but I don't know how those work, yet.

Welcome any feedback on
Tanning ledge constant dirtiness/plaster issues, any 'tips', even if it's an ELI5 about how the pump works/is setup.

I've gone through 3 companies when I first bought it trying to get a brain-dump but you guys always provide a lot more information. This is my first pool so it's pretty reactive learning.

Question: I closed the Polaris vent since I have all water going up top, but could I re-open it if I fix the drain issue and go back to doing hybrid? Would it just function as a normal return, at the loss of pressure? I also don't really know what the valve to the left of 'F' does in the image I embedded here. I know I keep it open unless I'm cleaning the skimmer, so I assume it's the pool drain, but why 2, is what I don't know.

@Ahultin / @Jimrahbe / @dBsooner just because I don't know if my reply informs you guys. dBsooner, the chemicals I use are in the pic as well. Basically acid x2 and Leslie's Clening Fluid (plus salt, of course).
Sometimes I also do calcium because I was trying to keep the tanning ledge healthy but my results for it are never good.

 

[Ahultin]

Is the line circled here the tanning ledge drain?
If you close the valve to this and to A does the tanning ledge stop draining?

 

[TDTPool]

Is the line circled here the tanning ledge drain?
If you close the valve to this and to A does the tanning ledge stop draining?
View attachment 504856

Your bottom circle comes from the 2nd pump I just gave more info about, I do not know what it does. If you meant the pip a bit to the right of it, yes; it's the tanning ledge.
The top line under A is the tanning ledge. I will try in a bit to see if I close that valve, if the draining still happens.
What I do to stop it now is turn C to put all water to the tanning ledge.... but if what you're saying works, what would the fix for that be? Wouldn't that mean the swtich valve on D isn't actually working?

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Thanks for the pics, but we will need more as we need to understand what is on the other side of the filter and how your heat pump is connected.

I suspect that they put the new check valve in backwards, but at this point I don't even understand how everything is supposed to flow.

See if you can look at the check valve and determine the direction of flow.. And then let us know..

I suspect that your Intake valve (in front of the pump we can see) is set up to select the Pool's main drain and the Pool's skimmer. I could easily be wrong, but you will have to run some tests to see what is what. Turn the valve so that handle points toward the house. Then go look at your pool's skimmer and see if you have water flow or not. Then turn the handle 180 degrees so that it points away from the house and check the skimmer again. If the flow changes at the skimmer, then you will know for sure that the Intake valve is connected to the pool's skimmer and main drain.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

Thanks Jim, I'll go play with that. I think I was overly cautious to do any real trial-and-error since I don't know how finnicky the pump can be if waterflow goes the wrong way. I know very little, but my guess since this started is that the new check valve is backwards.
I don't fully understand what these valves do, but I assume if it's backwards, then the water can freely 'run back' once the pump isn't pushing.

 

[Ahultin]

but if what you're saying works, what would the fix for that

I suspect that the line I circled is the drain for the tanning ledge. If closing that and A stops the drain down, the solution is a check valve at a between the jandy 3 way and the blue handled ball valve.

 

[TDTPool]

I suspect that the line I circled is the drain for the tanning ledge. If closing that and A stops the drain down, the solution is a check valve at a between the jandy 3 way and the blue handled ball valve.

A check valve here? Is there a reason this issue would have 'just' popped up, if that's the case? (I'll do your tests, for sure, just trying to learn.)

And I do think you're right about the pipe you circled. Just looking that it's connected to that 2nd pump, etc etc. It makes sense.

 

[Ahultin]

My guess is that the second pump is powered from the same timer as the first pump and the switch is just for servicing the second pump. They likely kept the ball valve on the line i circled closed at all times
While inefficient, this would prevent the upper pool from draining down thru A except when the pumps where off , leaving the upper pool to empty.

 

[TDTPool]

Awesome, I think y'alls input has given me some ideas to go play with.

The one last thing I am just unsure of entirely is what do we think this valve does behind the tanning ledge? My best guess is still that is controls if that main valve gets water? But then it has 2 pipes... and I thought originally it controlled which return gets 'more' water, but then how would it get water in the first place, etc... I'm mostly curious because I just can't move it at all; I can only untwist that center notch.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

I think we all need to be on the same page as to what we are calling things..

It does not appear to me that you have a "Tanning ledge" but you have a raised spa, that spills over into your pool.

It also appears that your pool was build as just a pool, and then some fool came along and added a raised spa. This is why your plumbing is such a mess.
My head still hurts..

The pump in the first pictures is your main pool pump and I suspect it also supplies water to make the spa spillover into the pool.

The second pump is for your spa jets.

Let's see if we can get your pool and overflow set up to run correctly and then worry about your second pump.

In theory, when in the spillover mode, no water should be flowing out of the drains in the bottom of the raised spa.

I'm still trying to figure out your convoluted plumbing..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

I'm still trying to figure out your convoluted plumbing..

You and me both, this has been a struggle for me since I bought the place.

The pump in the first pictures is your main pool pump and I suspect it also supplies water to make the spa spillover into the pool.

You're absolutely correct - That 'jandy 3 way' (Thanks for the name) in my above pic controls if main flow goes there, or the pool.

Naming-wise, makes sense - I actually called it "a kiddie pool, with weird dangerous spillover ledge", but I can go with raised spa.

Is there anything I can do to help confirm what each pipe, does what?
Second pump is for spa jets, but it is never on. If I turn it on, the skimmer runs dry due to other valves being closed. I haven't tried forcing water to it (successfully) yet.

For now I will completely ignore the second pump, and closed pipes to it. I would like to figure out how to get it usable, one day, since I do like the overflow/waterfall, without losing all main pool returns.

And finally, I appreciate y'all taking the time. I have given over $1,500 to 2 companies to come and look into leaks, replace valves, and I just want to start doing it all myself since so far they've only made more work, or been just as confused, except they're physically with the equipment.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

For the life of me, I can't understand what the Jandy valve next to the spa does..

Here is a quick test...

Black ball valve off
Blue ball valve on
Return Jandy valve set so that all the water goes to A (Spa) and nothing to B (Pool). The handle needs to point away from the house..

In theory, the spa should get plenty of water and spillover into the pool. Nothing should be flowing out the the spa drain.

Then move the valve by the spa so that you only have one open pipe at a time and see if it has any effect on the operation at all.

Please try that and let me know what happens.

I assume the problem that you are trying to solve is that your spa drains when the pump is running and not just when the pump is off. Is that correct??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

I assume the problem that you are trying to solve is that your spa drains when the pump is running and not just when the pump is off. Is that correct??

Going to test your theory now, but for this question - I want it to not drain when the pump is off. I will check when I'm out there if it's draining when the pump is on, but all pressure is going to main pool.

Essentially every night at 6 the pump turns off, and by 6:30 the spa has lost all water so it's under that verticle return, and the main pool is very high water level (almost top of skimmer).