Tanning ledge pool draining into main pool when pump is off

[Ahultin]

If we call it a spa (at ~1ft deep lol) the system looks to be a pool spa combo with booster pump but setup all wrong or a dual body pool and spa ...setup wrong.
I like the idea of looking at it as a pool spa combo.
1. Pretending the "booster pump doesn't exist.
2. The tee at the main pump should be a jandy 3 way.
3. If doing 2 above , add high temp pump unions which should resolve the leak here
4. Add make-up bypass (tee out of vertical "B" to check valve to shutoff to tee into "A"
5. Keep 3 way "C" off to "A" and new 3 way off to "spa" drain
6. When you want jet action at "spa" turn "C" 180° and new 3 way 90° shutting off pool suction and pool return.
7. When you want higher spillover rotate "C" 180° and leave new 3 way on pool suction.

 

[Ahultin]

Essentially every night at 6 the pump turns off, and by 6:30 the spa has lost all water so it's under that verticle return, and the main pool is very high water level (almost top of skimmer).

Close ball valve on "A" and turn off pump. Does "spa" still drain.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Right now I'm just trying to understand your plumbing.

But.. it appears to me that your check valve D is in the wrong place.. It needs to be above the blue valve to make things work the way they should and not drain at night.

As a test, I like @Ahultin idea of shutting off the blue valve when the pump is off and see if the spa still drains down.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[dBsooner]

dBsooner, the chemicals I use are in the pic as well. Basically acid x2 and Leslie's Clening Fluid (plus salt, of course).

I’m purposely staying out of the convo at the moment. Much easier to concentrate on one task at a time. We can tackle the stains later. I still suspect iron or copper stains, especially if they have been there since you bought the house. Previous owner may not have used the TFP methods and put nasties in the water.

But quick one: no need to buy that extremely overpriced liquid conditioner from Leslie’s. Go to Walmart. Get the Clorox chlorine stabilizer in dry form. I assume you meant “liquid conditioner” instead of “cleaning fluid”.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Just to be clear.. Never shut off the blue valve unless the pump is off, when the Return valve is set to all A.

 

[TDTPool]

So first off, frustraingly, that return in the spa isn't draining (at least not right now) even with pump off. I am not sure why, or why not.

Now for the tests:

Return Jandy valve set so that all the water goes to A (Spa) and nothing to B (Pool). The handle needs to point away from the house..

So this is how it is in my most recent pics (Not the one with the letter). But the handle points 'towards' the house when it's this way, doesn't it? This pushes all water to the top, -and- will stop to draining when the pump is off.

Then move the valve by the spa so that you only have one open pipe at a time and see if it has any effect on the operation at all.

I did finally manage to get it to turn, and it -looks- like it is controlling which of the 3 returns gets more pressure. This doesn't make sense to me so I need to play with it more (Like the 3-way can't JUST be the returns, or how tf would water get in there in the first place?)

If closing that and A stops the drain down, the solution is a check valve at a between the jandy 3 way and the blue handled ball valve.

I also tested this, but as I said for some reason the draining isn't happening right now. I'm trying to think of any valve I may have left open/closed that wasn't before.


Question: Is there a downside to leaving the Polaris open even if I don't have it hooked up? To just circulate more water/be another return?

(Some new pics of me trying to figure some stuff out)

https://imgur.com/a/VbvXopf

- You'll notice in the last one I added the directional flow of everything, I -think-. I am still a bit confused on the 2nd pump in general.

 

[TDTPool]

Just to be clear.. Never shut off the blue valve unless the pump is off, when the Return valve is set to all A.

Appreciate the warning! That I did realize as I think 'that' section is the only thing I'm confident on how it works.

 

[Ahultin]

There is another check valve on the supply side of the 2nd pump , does not look like that one was replaced but I don't know that that one does anything more than the one of the return does.
You also have the black ball valve closed in the recent photos - if the three way on the returns happens to be higher than the "spa" then closing the black ball valve may be enough to prevent the drain down.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

So, when troubleshooting, you need to do one thing at a time.. For now, let's not worry about other stuff.

So your "spa" has three returns??? If that is true, then the valve by the spa make some sense.

Black ball valve still closed
Blue ball valve open.

The next test is to set the Return valve so that 80% of the water goes to the Pool (B pipe) and only about 20% goes to the Spa (A pipe).

This should still make the spa overflow into the pool, but at a slower rate.

Once you confirm this, you can shut off the pump and see if the spa drains. If it does, then close the blue ball valve and see if it stops.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

So your "spa" has three returns??? If that is true, then the valve by the spa make some sense.

If they're all considered returns, yea. It has 2 in the floor, and one on the wall; the one opposite of the three way. That three way looks like it controls which of the returns gets more of the incoming water; so I assumed a single drain by the pump splits into the 2 pipes, that converge at the jandy, and the central point is 'return 3'.

The next test is to set the Return valve so that 80% of the water goes to the Pool (B pipe) and only about 20% goes to the Spa (A pipe).

I did test this, it is actually the opposite of what I normally do - If I only send 20% (Or even 50%) to the spa, the spillover is... a drip over and just looks stupid, and weirdly attracts more bees.
Normally I go 80% to the spa, 20% to the pool. UNTIL this drain issue; right now I am doing 100% to the spa, and 0% the pool, just in case I am not able to go out there and shut it off at 6PM to make sure it doesn't backfill.

If it does, then close the blue ball valve and see if it stops.

Yea, if I close the blue valve, the draining issue stops.

So I think it sounds like I need to get a valve injected between the jandy and the blue like @Ahultin said. I don't know why this is a new issue, but if y'all are in agreement, I will consider that the 'solve' of this issue.
(Next moving to seeing if we can somehow get the sub-pump to work, then to chemicals. One at a time.)

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Ok.. The things on the floor of the spa are normally called 'drains' as the spa water goes into to them and back to the pump.

The things on the wall are normally called 'returns' as water comes out of them and into the spa. So, you only have one single pipe on the spa walls???

Not sure that is how your system is plumbed or not. We have to keep testing to see what we have.


You can run your system anyway you want, but right now, I'm just trying to make sure we all know what is what.

Please let me know if you want to move on with our testing..

We have two options..

1. See if we can get the spa to circulate the water without a spillover.. This is how you would heat just the spa.

2. We can see what pump #2 can do.


Question for you.. When was the last time your backwashed your filter? In normal systems you do not need to run 80% to make the spillover work. Then again, what you have to not close to normal.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

The things on the wall are normally called 'returns' as water comes out of them and into the spa. So, you only have one single pipe on the spa walls???

So my terms 'might' be wrong, but I just want to be clear that all 3 holes in the spa output water, when I have the jandy going to the spa. In fact, the 2 in the ground output majority of the water - It was shoot 'up' ~3-4" over the water line with pressure. When I have this 'draining' issue, they actually do NOT drain; only the return on the wall does.

I'd love to keep testing more tomorrow when the sun is back.
I'd like to see what pump #2 can do, but I am patient. I'm hopeful if we can figure out how pump #2 works then I might be able to actually have the full overflow WHILE circulating the pool. Primarily I'd like to keep following y'alls recommendations on #1 as it's teaching me a lot about how to figure out what every pipe/valve does.

I will cautiously offer I really don't know if I have a way to circulate -just- the spa without it spilling over, but I am def curious.
I feel like if there is a way, it involves that black valve I -never- open near my question mark at the bottom. It comes from the 'mystery' pipes connected to the 2nd pump. (I assume something on the 'to figure out' soon is what the jandy leading to the skimmer does. I assume one is pool, one is spa. I -always- have it in the middle, unless I'm cleaning the skimmer.)

https://imgur.com/0YuFYHx

Question for you.. When was the last time your backwashed your filter? In normal systems you do not need to run 80% to make the spillover work. Then again, what you have to not close to normal.

I try to do it once a week until the water runs near clear. I also clean the skimmers daily (I have a bee suicide problem right now, unrelated to all of this).

 

[Ahultin]

In fact, the 2 in the ground output majority of the water

You have three suction lines coming out of the ground at the equipment pad, do you know where they come from?

 

[TDTPool]

three suction lines

How do I know which is a suction line? I was thinking perhaps it's the two bigger pipes leading to the skimmer, but that's only 2. (If it isn't obvious, I probably don't know your answer, but curious)

 

[Jimrahbe]

In fact, the 2 in the ground output majority of the water - It was shoot 'up' ~3-4"

TDT,

There is no doubt your plumbing is different, as water does not normally come out of the floor drains, but I don't doubt what you say at all. I just have to readjust my ideas of how things are plumbed on your pool/spa. In my mind it worked well with the drains being drains, but now that they are actually returns, I have yet to figure out how things are connected.

I have an appointment tomorrow so won't be back until late Sunday..

If you want, you can try this...

The Black valve in front of the filter to OFF
The Blue valve by the 2nd pump OPEN
The Gate Valve right at the 2nd pump OPEN
The Blue valve on pipe A OFF (Make sure the Jandy return valve is set to all Pool.

Turn on the second pump, but watch it to make sure it is pumping water. If not, just shut it off and reset the valves.

What I hope to see is the second pump suck water out of the spa Drains/Returns and then that water should come back out of the single return in the side wall of the spa. No overflow.

Note that I could be totally full of Bull Feather, but "suspect" that the 3rd pipe that goes into the ground in front of the heater is connected to your Spa Drains/Returns.

If it works, great, if not I will just have to adjust my thinking. At this point I have no idea where else it could go.

Talk with you late tomorrow. Maybe by then your and Ahultin will have it all figured out.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Ahultin]

How do I know which is a suction line?

Anything going to the front of the pump Is a suction line. You have three. The far left leading into the jandy 3 way and the 2nd from the right that goes to the tee to pump 2/ black handle ball valve / tee at pump 1

 

[TDTPool]

Anything going to the front of the pump Is a suction line.

Ahhh! I get you. I am fairly sure that one that isn't connected to the jandy is going to the heater, but will check when I'm home.

https://imgur.com/MuflCIZ

looks like it also.

 

[TDTPool]

The Black valve in front of the filter to OFF
The Blue valve by the 2nd pump OPEN
The Gate Valve right at the 2nd pump OPEN
The Blue valve on pipe A OFF (Make sure the Jandy return valve is set to all Pool.

Like you I also had a busy day so only got out to test it just now. I believe I followed everything right, but honestly I am not sure what happened (as in, anything?)
I did get my wife to come help me in real-time and the 'drain-back' (Source issue) is still happening as soon as I put any water towards the pool. I still don't get why this issue is 'new', since they replaced that one valve.

To confirm I did what you asked right I marked up an image. You also mentioned a gate valve which is a new term to me - I assumed it was that box thing, and I did set it so the handle went along the water flow, vs against.

https://imgur.com/a/4fHGIty

1st 2 are to confirm I did what you want right, but thanks to you guys I'm starting to get the concept... And in the 3rd, there is no way for the 2nd pump (Can I call it a sub-pump? Is that right?) to get water if the black gate is closed. Do you agree?
Which if we open the black, it means it hits a T, and one side of it... immediately goes underground and does IDFK what. The other goes to the 2nd pump. (In this pic the arrow coming to the switch valve is a pipe 'on top' of the one I have pointing to the 2nd pump.

I kept thinking the black valve was to stop water from getting to the filter, but just based on pressure (and him teaching me what a suction line is) I believe my new understanding is right.

One thing that might help - The second pump is never 'gushing' with water; shouldn't it be overflowing as soon as water is getting to it? There is some standing water (Usually to the bottom of the intake) as long as the pump is off, but wouldn't I expect to see it just flooding with water if I ever had the right combo? (Also I somehow got off topic of the weird spa draining issue, but honestly I think this is all helping)

 

[Ahultin]

Blue handled valve on the far right needs to be rotated 90° to close it.
The thought behind this is activating pump 2 should suck from the mystery pipe 2nd in from the right coming out of the ground.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

First.. If you look at what you call the sub-pump, connected to the input pipe is a funny looking valve. This type of valve is called a gate valve. To open the gate valve you pull the handle out away from the pipe, you don't turn it.

Second.. I can't tell if you actually ran the test or not..

Third.. This test has nothing to do with the spa draining when the pump is off.

Please let me know what you find.

Thanks,

Jim R.