Tanning ledge pool draining into main pool when pump is off

[TDTPool]

Second.. I can't tell if you actually ran the test or not..

I'll re-run the test tomorrow with pic; I did run the test, but I didn't take new pics, so I used old ones and showed what I closed/kept open.

Everything else, understood and expected. Will do it again tomorrow in the sun and take pics.

I do have two question(s) I have as I'm working through and labeling everything with y'all -
Question 1) This is about your test. Am I understanding which black valve you mean closed?

I did close it in the test, but if it's closed I don't see how the 2nd pump would ever get water.


Question 2:
Is there a way to tell which of these comes from the main pool, vs the spa? I assume I can turn it to one side, and if the skimmer (in the pool) loses pressure, I closed it; but... would it do anything from the spa, knowing that everything is for some reason a return? Or is there likely to just be 2 pool pipes to control overflow?
(I'm not trying to introduce complexity/new question intentionally; I'm trying to label every pipe as we work this out.)

 

[Ahultin]

Red yellow and blue are all suction lines. Most likely one comes from the spa (ideally red) , one from the skimmer and one from the main drain.
Theoretically closing the black valve isolates pump 2 so it is only pulling from the mystery suction line.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Question 1.

Yes, that black valve needs to be off to run the test. If you look to the right of the black valve you will see the pipe goes down into the ground. I'm trying to understand were that pipe is going. My theory is that it is going to your Spa Drain/Return. I suspect that depending on where valves are set, you can either force water up and out of the two drain covers in your Spa, or you can connect them to the input of your sub-Pump #2 and suck water out of the spa. I don't know that for sure, but that is what the test should prove..

Question #2.

I suspect that the two pipes coming out of the ground in front of your main pool pump, go to your Pool's Main Drain and your Pool's Skimmer. I am assuming these were part of the original pool and have nothing to do with the added on Spa. I told you how to test this theory in post # 11... see below...

"I suspect that your Intake valve (in front of the pump we can see) is set up to select the Pool's main drain and the Pool's skimmer. I could easily be wrong, but you will have to run some tests to see what is what. Turn the valve so that handle points toward the house. Then go look at your pool's skimmer and see if you have water flow or not. Then turn the handle 180 degrees so that it points away from the house and check the skimmer again. If the flow changes at the skimmer, then you will know for sure that the Intake valve is connected to the pool's skimmer and main drain."

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

Got it, I'm starting to get it. I'll do your test tomorrow, and I have one I'm curious about as well.

I guess I'm torn on what'll happen if red is a suction from the spa, assuming blue is closed in this image (below) I get what you're telling me now. It'll circulate JUST the spa water... I wonder how it'll decide which one becomes a drain and which one becomes a return...

 

[TDTPool]

So I went to do the test (in between thunderstorms) and it ended kind of how I expected, but I think we're right in all our hypothesis so far.
Doing this combo was the first time I've ever seen that... 'gate'? in the second pump actually get pulled open.

I turn it off pretty quick because it looks water starved to me, and I don't want to fry the motor.

https://imgur.com/a/ZYBqfkJ

Based on what we learned so far, this was kind of the expected result, though, wasn't it? Like if none of the 3 inlets in the spa are dedicated returns, it's always just fighting itself for pressure if we have it set to suction and return.

Curious on y'alls thought; if I'm being too cautious of the pump and that empty filter is fine, I can test it for longer, but it felt dangerous to the motor to me.

 

[Ahultin]

Can you tell where the second pump is sucking from?

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

I'd run the pump for at least 30 seconds.. you will not hurt it unless it is run a long time without water.

I'd take the pump lid off of the sub-pump and make sure the basket is full of water and the lid gasket has been lubed. And then try it again..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

Can you tell where the second pump is sucking from?

Could I turn off the main pump and feel for pressure? I assume we don't need the main pump for any of this.

 

[Ahultin]

Could I turn off the main pump and feel for pressure? I assume we don't need the main pump for any of this.

Correct, the way Jim had you set all of the valves should have the 2nd pump completely isolated from the 1st pump

 

[TDTPool]

I went to do the tests, but Ahultin your guess that the 2nd pump is set to the first pump is correct; power wise. I can't turn off the pump and give it power. What I did do is put the pump into backwash mode to reduce the vibrations around everything.
I -think- the red is the suction from the spa.

I tried the test multiple times, and brought a friend over to help watch the spa at the same time.
When I have this config going, as you saw in the video, the pump is pulling in air, and very little water. The spa itself isn't really spraying, or sucking. Just VERY light output if I had to side one way or another.

And with the guidance y'all gave me on the pipes, it makes sense (Yes, it has to be wrong) why. There is no dedicated drain; so how could it circulate it's own water?
I also don't think it was built to 'be' a spa. Like... I would never sit in there - We normally have a chair and an umbrella and use it as a psuedo tanning ledge. (Honestly I just hate it but I like the waterfall effect).

I'm not sure there is a next step, but ask you guys. I think we've solved the second pump; Ahultin told me what I suspect to be the fix to make the 'draining' stop (Check valve before waterfall pipe so nothing can backfill). WHY it's new, I don't know.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

So.. Would you be fine with just never running your sub-pump? Since it sounds like in the past you ran it with the gate valve closed, it is probably toast anyway.

I've got one more thing you can try in an effort to suck water from the non-spa tanning ledge... If you want, totally up to you.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

Would you be fine with just never running your sub-pump?

Absolutely! And just to clear the record, I actually never used this pump. Each time a pool person has come I've asked what it's for, they've tried to guess, but I never leave it running. I think the pump is working, and seems in great condition motor-wise. I've just kind of come to the idea "I have a back-up pump of the other one ever dies."

I've got one more thing you can try in an effort to suck water from the non-spa tanning ledge

I've be curious of the idea! Just because it might help me learn more about the pump setup. I am fine just using it to waterfall over, since it's nice looking/sounding. Is it to close the waterfall (blue) valve, and open the black valve? I was thinking about that one time.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Is it to close the waterfall (blue) valve, and open the black valve?

TDT,

Yep... Just to make sure we are both on the same page..

Make sure the blue valve and gate valve by the 2nd pump is off or closed.
Then open the black valve that is just behind the gray valve in front of the filter
Then make sure the Jandy valve is set to send all the water back to the pool and none to the Spa/ledge.
I would set the Jandy in front of the pump to suck water from just the skimmer.

If the pipe with the black valve actually goes to the spa/ledge drains, all the water in the spa/ledge should be sucked out pretty quickly, so be ready to turn the pump off.

The only thing we are trying to do with this test, is to see where the unknown pipe is going.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

I would set the Jandy in front of the pump to suck water from just the skimmer.

Got it, I'm with you. I'll have to test tomorrow as it's major TStorms right now.
This will also help, because I need to drain the top anyway to deep scrub the grossness that brought me to the 2nd post here originally.

I do still have to figure out which side of the jandy is skimmer vs drain but I know how to figure out that one easily.

 

[TDTPool]

So good news, I can do that to drain the spa. It did cause the pool to get high so I just flushed some out.

First off, I want to thank both of you for all the help; while I didn't walk out with an immediate reason of 'why' it's suddenly draining, I feel MUCH more familiar with the pump setup, and am confident with what everything above ground does. That is something I've been trying to get since I bought this house.

Now that I can drain the spa, I am going to drain majority of the water, and try to scrub the weird discoloration out. I say that ending with a long pause for a "Whooooa, don't do that!" - If there is no interjection, I am curious of recommendations of what to use? I've tried some spray-n-wash stuff before (I don't have it's name on hand) and it worked decent for the light stains.

(I'll use this time to tag back in @dBsooner)

Most of the discoloration is super new, but it's gotten worse. The 'green rings' (copper? IDK) near the 'drains' have been there since shortly after I bought it. (Pre-purchase there was lots of furniture in the spa so truthfully I could have just missed it).

My chemistry is good last time I checked it; a bit off from all the stuff I've been doing, but close. I just don't know what I need to offset for the spa being plaster, and also how to make it stop chipping (Paint? IDK). Happy to take more pics, or anything else upon request.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

The last test proved that the mystery pipe going into the ground goes to the spa/ledge drains.

Since this same pipe was used when you tried to use your #2 pump, it means the #2 pump is not working. The motor may be working, but it is not pulling any water in to it. Best to just keep it off.

If you want to stop the spa/ledge from draining when the pump is off, you just need to install another check valve, either right above or below the blue ball valve on the pipe "A".

You've been a good sport allowing us to help troubleshoot your "modified" plumbing...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

You've been a good sport allowing us to help troubleshoot your "modified" plumbing..

Hah, I've enjoyed learning more. I really just want to tear it all up and replace it but my wife isn't as eager for a 150K project.

Since this same pipe was used when you tried to use your #2 pump, it means the #2 pump is not working.

This confuses me though. If the pump was working, how would we know?
What I mean is, all 3 'drains' (Should be 2 drains, 1 return, I understand that) are functioning as returns. We know that. However, they 'also' will drain if we set all returns to go to the main pool.
So if I have the 2nd pump going, all valves shut to the main pool from main pump, how would it ever circulate given the same pipes are returns and drains?
The main pump would try to 'pull' from the spa, while the second pump is sent to the spa. I feel like it'd just be making a very weak vaccuum, and lots of pressure.

Now I am not disagreeing the pump is broken. I just feel like the plumbing isn't set up to have ever made use of it?

If you want to stop the spa/ledge from draining when the pump is off, you just need to install another check valve, either right above or below the blue ball valve on the pipe "A".

Yep, I kept that memorized from when Ahultin mentioned it. Might be a fun project for me to do since I've yet to do any PVC repairs myself. But I am very tired of paying $175+ every time this company that has been wrong about everything so far to do it.

Thinking about it, since I am okay never using the second pump could I steal the check valve they just installed and move it?

This one.

 

[Jimrahbe]

could I steal the check valve they just installed and move it?

Yes.. but...

It would be more trouble than it is worth.. If you remove the new check valve, you will have to cap the line and there does not appear to be a place to easily do that. Then the cut side of the check valve would still have pipe inside it. You could put a larger pipe on the outside of the check valve, but then you would need reducers to get back to the size of your other pipes.

Yes, it could be done, but you would have to do a lot more work.

My labor time is worth a lot more money to me, than the parts I use..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

TDT,

Just to make sure..

The next time you shut off the pump, turn off the blue valve on pipe A and ensure the Spa/ledge no longer drains down.

Just want to make sure that a new check valve will fix the problem.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[TDTPool]

The next time you shut off the pump, turn off the blue valve on pipe A and ensure the Spa/ledge no longer drains down.

Thanks for trying to save my time/money! I have done that, and yea. As soon as I A) Open the waterfall valve B) turn the jandy to feed the main pool, I hear the water rushing back.
I think the check valve is the right play.