*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

[Newdude]

*also. Apologies if I miss any proper terms. Too many years of me and the coworkers making up our own funny terms that only make sense to us. You say there is 3V with 25A on a nuetral. I tell my buddy that it’s got some schmutz on it *that way* so be careful when near the panel. He knows exactly what I mean. Lol.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

Again, I’m uniquely qualified here in that I find stray voltage for a living. In places / directions where it doesn’t belong. AC, DC, or inductive from either without being a hard cross sending full voltage down any leg. The power company and electricians generally have it easier being one directional 99.99999% of the time and this is why you’ve stumped them both. Also, with all of the above testing, steers my opinions to missing/ bad bonds on one or all of the utilities somewhere down the street, sending inductive voltage to the house using the cable or phone drops as a leg.

We only have one way of zeroing in and that’s to cut it and test both ways. Go further back down the bad leg and sectionalize again. Eventually, Even if dealing with a miles long run, you get there.

Sometimes it’s shot all over and voltage is coming from both sides but each/all of those problems get located by doing the same sectionalizing.

I believe you and I are in complete agreement, with the fact that the property needs to be isolated from outside influences one at a time to try and find if any influences are coming in on the neutral or on a bond.

 

[Newdude]

Ground rod to actual ground (earth)? These are the same thing or should be.

If it’s only the ground rod and the electric ground, then yes.

If others are sharing the Ground rod as a common ground (as is modern practice) then they can be back feeding it and that voltage will be seen. Then each one gets lifted and both halves get tested. It could even be coming in on 2 legs. 75% on one and 25% on another, But we need to start pulling to get any answers.

 

[mas985]

If others are sharing the Ground rod as a common ground (as is modern practice) then they can be back feeding it and that voltage will be seen. Then each one gets lifted and both halves get tested. It could even be coming in on 2 legs. 75% on one and 25% on another, But we need to start pulling to get any answers.

Even if something is sharing a grounding rod, it is still at the same potential at that connection point by definition. So I am not following your train of thought here. What is feeding back to what? What is the current flow direction, from what line to what line? Be more specific. Trust me, I can follow pretty much anything to do with electrical work (MSEE). I am just trying to understand your scenario.

Here is what I think we do know.

There is a potential difference between the pool railing and the decking (based upon the shock). When the bonding is removed, the shock goes away. This can be caused by many different things. But one thing we do know is that the railing and the decking are at different potentials when the bonding is connected to house ground. So at a minimum we know that the railing OR the deck are not properly bonded. If both were bonded together, there should be no shock.

Here is one scenario:

A power wire near the deck is exposed but the deck is not bonded or poorly bonded to the railing (i.e. resistance between the two) and the house. So the current flow would be exposed wire to deck to person to railing to bonding to ground. When the ground / bond wire is broken, then no current flows as long as the railing is now electrically isolated (or very high resistance) from the ground which is possible.

So I am just looking for a detailed explanation like the above. What is the path of current flow in your example?

 

[Mike1162]

There is a potential difference between the pool railing and the decking (based upon the shock).

I believe it was between the water & the railing, also the water and the decking. Just want to be clear.

 

[Newdude]

So I am just looking for a detailed explanation like the above. What is the path of current flow in your example

Let’s go with Voltage from the street bleeding over to the CATV/Phone wire. Most likely through induction. Either they are too close somewhere or bonds have corroded / are missing out front or 3 houses over, maybe even in multiple spots. Or It could be a hard fault with direct contact and most of the current is bled off enroute to the house. This is where things get dangerous for me chasing the trouble if it’s actual / full voltage. It’s only a little at the house but it could be full voltage on the pole or in the buried splice.

So some voltage makes it to the side of the house to the main ground rod. It should go to earth right there but sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve seen many repairs where another utility backfed mine due to the common ground. We think we know the least resistance path it should travel, but a loose connection or the humidity level or 47 other could make a better path that we aren’t seeing / thinking about. So the current enters the house and chooses the pool area as it’s next easiest path.

We have all but ruled out the inside of the house (The kitchen circuit or central AC for example). as the voltage stayed when the main breaker were turned off. The kitchen / bedroom / etc only go to the panel and nowhere else they could pick up outside voltage.

I believe we have ruled out the power company (as in any inch of OPs yard) because when they cut the street service to the house (front of driveway to house, Aka ‘pole’ to house) the problem persisted. So whether it’s a neighbor or another utility it is coming from somewhere other than the actual electric feed to the house. When they cut service to the whole street, The problem went away because the fault was no longer energized, be it the neighbors well pump bleeding into the pool grid from the back, or the telephone line bringing it in from the front.

Another possibility is either CATV or Phones are fully hot and most is dissipating to the common ground like it should with only a little bleeding into the house. (And out to the pool)

I can always find it, but I can’t always explain it or fully grasp the why’s, other than ‘here is the problem’. Other times I have to punt it back to the electric company and never get the answer after I’ve narrowed it down for them.

 

[mas985]

Any AC mains hot voltage line crossing a CATV/Phone wire (inner or outer conductor) would be catastrophic and trip breakers/fuses up and down the line so I don't see that as very likely. The outer conductor of CATV is usually at the same potential as the house neutral/ground as they are grounded at the property entry point so the same potential and the center conductor does not usually have power after the branch hybrid. But a short to ground would just disable the CATV anyway.

However, an exposed telephone line near the pool could produce enough voltage to cause what we are seeing but it really doesn't have anything to do with the home wiring other than a separate path to ground.

 

[Newdude]

Any AC mains hot voltage line crossing a CATV/Phone wire (inner or outer conductor) would be catastrophic and trip breakers/fuses up and down the line so I don't see that as very likely.

Again, this why I think it’s inductive. Which, in itself is also unlikely, but with what we know so far, leads me to believe is what we have.

There was another tingle thread a month or two ago that the electrician pulled the CATV and found the voltage coming from the street on the Cable wire. He lucked out that the electrican took that step and found it right away. He didn’t come back to update yet so I don’t know what the fix was other than punting it to the Cable co.

 

[mas985]

Again, this why I think it’s inductive. Which, in itself is also unlikely, but with what we know so far, leads me to believe is what we have.

Inductive from where to where? To get any sort of voltage from inductive coupling, you need a lot of windings (think transformer). Two wires next to one other would not generate much in the way of excess voltage. Unless they were very very long parallel wires.

Plus I am still having a hard time envisioning how this creates the voltage differential between the water and the railing. Both should be connected together via the bonding wire from the railing directly to the pump bonding lug. This should force the water and railing to be at the same potential as the bond wire. Also, if the lights are bonded, this too should force the water to be at the same potential as the bonding grid. Now if there are two separate bonding grids, water/lights on one and railing/deck on another and they are not connect together or through the pump, then that could cause problems.

 

[Newdude]

inductive from where to where?

From the street. Long lengths of parallel runs between the utilities with improper bonding and or grounding. I see so many power upgrades going on. Many sub contractors remove the bonds / grounds while transferring services from the old pole to the new pole and not put them back or put them back in a hurried manner. (maybe here it was upgrading underground splices but same thing)

It could be in the buried parts of the neighborhood or it could be further down the line where it goes back on poles.

 

[Newdude]

Bottom line, we need to locate.

pull the main ground at the panel. Run a testing ground outside through a basement window to be able to test the now removed and no longer grounded panel. If it’s still hot we look in, one nuetral/ ground at a time, testing both ways using our temp test ground. If the panel is now dark we look out. First step there is to remove anybody sharing the ground rod and test them one at a time.

 

[Newdude]

And by ‘inside’, I really mean an outside wire that comes inside to the panel, Like the pool equipment. The kitchen, etc cannot be the cause here.

 

[mas985]

From the street. Long lengths of parallel runs between the utilities with improper bonding and or grounding. I see so many power upgrades going on. Many sub contractors remove the bonds / grounds while transferring services from the old pole to the new pole and not put them back or put them back in a hurried manner. (maybe here it was upgrading underground splices but same thing)

It could be in the buried parts of the neighborhood or it could be further down the line where it goes back on poles.

Telephone line and cable line to the house are both shielded which would prevent any inductive coupling unless seriously damaged (and over very long lengths) but then the service would be affected. Plus, the conduits underground are separated as well as the wires on the poles so very little inductive coupling would occur even without shielding. But inductive coupling doesn't really explain the potential difference between the railing and pool water. That needs to be something in proximity to either one. I see this as being a very low probability.

For troubleshooting, I would first do a continuity test from the railing to the bonding wire at the pump, disconnected from all equipment at the pad, to see if it is bonded or not. You may need another long wire to accomplish this but the resistance should be negligible with a heavier gauge wire. I would also measure the resistance between the motor shaft and the bonding lug. That should be very close to zero.

Another measurement would be a voltage measurement, both AC and DC, between the bonding wire and the ground wire (not connected to one another) and the railing to ground and railing to bonding wire. A high DC voltage (48v on hook) could indicate a telephone wire issue while a high AC voltage could indicate a mains or landscape lighting issue.

 

[NowintersinAZ]

Telephone line and cable line to the house are both shielded which would prevent any inductive coupling unless seriously damaged (and over very long lengths) but then the service would be affected. Plus, the conduits underground are separated as well as the wires on the poles so very little inductive coupling would occur even without shielding. But inductive coupling doesn't really explain the potential difference between the railing and pool water. That needs to be something in proximity to either one. I see this as being a very low probability.

For troubleshooting, I would first do a continuity test from the railing to the bonding wire at the pump, disconnected from all equipment at the pad, to see if it is bonded or not. You may need another long wire to accomplish this but the resistance should be negligible with a heavier gauge wire. I would also measure the resistance between the motor shaft and the bonding lug. That should be very close to zero.

Another measurement would be a voltage measurement, both AC and DC, between the bonding wire and the ground wire (not connected to one another) and the railing to ground and railing to bonding wire. A high DC voltage (48v on hook) could indicate a telephone wire issue while a high AC voltage could indicate a mains or landscape lighting issue.

A lot of what you said here has been said before.

I have asked a couple of times if the railing has been temporarily bonded, the bond can then be removed to facilitate testing.

The measurements I have seen have been from the railing to the deck and the railing to the water. The railing being the common factor. 4 volts RMS and 5 peak are a couple I remember.

I have also suggested a wire and continuity tester. Wire attached to the bonding lug on the motor and then carried around with the tester and testing all metal with in 5' around the pool to see what beeps and what does not. Including all metal in contact with the water.

There is also solar on the property that he has had looked into. I am still kinda stuck on this one as a possibility.

When the main breaker is shut off the voltage persists. When the power in the neighborhood goes down it goes away. So it's fairly local to the house, within the grid he is on. That's why I suggested turning off the main and lifting the neutral, then the utilities bonding. Remove the ground rod and the make sure the bonding jumper is intact and working.

One of the pictures the OP posted had voltage at 178Hz 3rd harmonic I also can't let that go either. Solar again has to convert from DC to AC in the inverter. We all know that silicone chopping up electricity will cause trouble including but not limited to the 3rd harmonic.

As has been stated if the voltage path(s) are going to be found or at least inside or outside the residence confirmed certain steps need to be done. That is up to the OP and his time table and what he is willing to take on or hire out.

At this point he or someone appointed by the OP should start at the beginning of the thread and list the tests that have been completed and the results then the ones that have not been conducted and list and prioritize them (this is be a sticky wicket as everyone will have a different idea of what is important). This will also help those that have been contributing and have not read the entire thread.

We have given him so much to do that it would take two experienced people a week to finish.

 

[mas985]

When I saw the voltage waveforms, the inverters were the first thing that came to mind. However, the op also posted that with power cut to everything, including solar, still had the same problem.

 

[Newdude]

Found the other thread. OP has been MIA since June. I do not claim to be able to fully explain the how, Or how it gets to the pool. I only claim that it’s a real possibility. One that I’ve seen enough to go after first. (Not the pool part, just the voltage to the house part) Especially when OPs 40+ year old buried street that predates conduits has all the services rotting in the same trench. (Unless one or both was upgraded to fiber).

Pool bonding problem caused by Cable TV service-any advice appreciated

I have a 20x40 inground vinyl pool. Pool installer was very experienced, put in about 8 years ago. The pool was bonded, I remember seeing the green wire around it before concrete and concrete rebar was wired together as well. He showed me some ohms tests showing ground to pump bolt was...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[gamerfan2004]

At this point he or someone appointed by the OP should start at the beginning of the thread and list the tests that have been completed and the results then the ones that have not been conducted and list and prioritize them (this is be a sticky wicket as everyone will have a different idea of what is important). This will also help those that have been contributing and have not read the entire thread.

This is a wonderful idea. The amount of input and assistance I've received about this issue has blown away any expectations, and I want to give all of you a huge THANK YOU!

I will attempt to make a list in the thread of suggestions, tests, and results. To really hammer this down, I'll need to do most of this testing at night. I appreciate everyone's patience with testing and trying to get more information in regards to measurements.

Also, I had the panels checked again. Three wires were not connected properly, I think on the roof. I'm now receiving my rated solar production but didn't resolve our issue.

I've attached two pictures. In the pic of the panel, you'll notice a bright green ground wire; this belongs to the solar inverter. The two GFCI breakers belong to the pool pump and the outlets/pool light switch near the pool (attached to the house).

The other picture is of the water meter in the basement.

As the novel continues.....

 

[Newdude]

I will attempt to make a list in the thread of suggestions, tests, and results

We are all basically saying the same thing, removing and testing. The only question is where to start. Speaking as someone who finds similar stray voltages everyday, Murphy’s is in FULL effect here. If you start at ‘A’, It’s ‘Z’. And vice versa. Every. Last. Time.

Keep us posted.

 

[mas985]

We have solar panels on the house. We had them come out to verify that there isn't a voltage leak or grounding issue on their equipment. With all of their equipment unplugged, power off, main breaker to the house turned off, we still had the voltage in the shallow end. Over by the pool motor, we were seeing around 3V on the ground. Absolutely NOTHING was turned on at this moment. All of the solar equipment checked out. The next course of action, check with the power company to see if there's a load issue. They came out, performed a load test, and everything checked out. The house grounding rod is secure and reads 0V. We've taken out breakers, disconnected all of the wires for the pool motor, timer, outdoor outlets, checked the GFCI's. Nothing, absolutely freaking nothing is leading us to the source.

When you said, "with all their equipment unplugged", did that mean that the inverter was powered down (i.e. panel DC disconnected from the inverters) or did you mean that the solar system was simply disconnected from the AC mains?


Also, what do you mean by "Over by the pool motor, we were seeing around 3V on the ground. "? Measured from where to where?

 

[ajw22]

If you start at ‘A’, It’s ‘Z’. And vice versa. Every. Last. Time.

You always find it in the last place you look.