Serious help needed

[JamesW]

CC is where the chlorine atom from hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid substitutes for a hydrogen ion in a compound like ammonia instead of oxidizing the contaminant.

NH3 + HOCl --> NH2Cl + H2O

Ammonia plus hypochlorous acid --> monochloramine + water.

In other words, the chlorine combines with the contaminant to form a chlorinated compound.

Chlorinated compounds are poor oxidizers and can be irritating to swimmers.

To test for CC, one adds iodide R0003, which is very easily oxidized into iodine, even by chlorinated compounds like chloramines.

The iodine combines with the R-0870 powder like chlorine does to form the pink dye. The test solution is titrated to determine the CC level.

FC + CC = TC.

Chlorine does oxidize ammonia, so the answer to CC is to add more chlorine until the ammonia is completely oxidized.

When chlorine oxidizes the nitrogen atom in ammonia, the chlorine is reduced to inactive chloride and the nitrogen becomes nitrogen gas.

 

[pooldv]

FC and CC are also discussed here, ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

 

[richardc]

CC is where the chlorine atom from hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid substitutes for a hydrogen ion in a compound like ammonia instead of oxidizing the contaminant.

NH3 + HOCl --> NH2Cl + H2O

Ammonia plus hypochlorous acid --> monochloramine + water.

In other words, the chlorine combines with the contaminant to form a chlorinated compound.

Chlorinated compounds are poor oxidizers and can be irritating to swimmers.

To test for CC, one adds iodide R0003, which is very easily oxidized into iodine, even by chlorinated compounds like chloramines.

The iodine combines with the R-0870 powder like chlorine does to form the pink dye. The test solution is titrated to determine the CC level.

FC + CC = TC.

Chlorine does oxidize ammonia, so the answer to CC is to add more chlorine until the ammonia is completely oxidized.

When chlorine oxidizes the nitrogen atom in ammonia, the chlorine is reduced to inactive chloride and the nitrogen becomes nitrogen gas.

I understand that. Please explain what the FAS DPD tests for? I can follow the formula to do that test, but I have no idea what is being tested nor the importance of same. Thankk you

 

[JamesW]

FASDPD tests for chlorine (it also registers bromine).

 

[Swampwoman]

Let me try

FAS/DPD tests two things that are critical elements of TFP pool care, which is why its necessary to use this specific test.

First, it tests your free chlorine - FC.
- add powder to 10 mm mark on tube, turns pink, add and count drops of reagent 087 until clear, divide the number by 2 and that's your FC.

This test is superior to other Free Chlorine tests because it can test to a higher range and is more accurate.

Knowing FC is one half of the "trouble free" equation you can see here: [fc/cya][/FC/cya]

The second part of the FAS/DPD test is for cc, or combined chlorine, whch is chloramines. Think of it as "spent" chlorine that has combined with something, like algae or bacteria or urine or sweat, to neutralize it.

After testing "free" chlorine (chlorine that is ready to go to work) and you've added the last drop to get the sample clear, you now add 5 drops of reagent 003 until you see color -- if there's no color, there's no CC.

If after 1 drop it turns clear, you have .5 ppm of CC. If it takes 2 dros, you have 1 ppm of CC. And so on.

Your CC information is used in part to determine if you might need to slam...or if something else is combining with the chlorine. So if you have a CC of say 2 ppm, its one part of an indication that your "free" chlorine is getting tied up killing something and might need some extra help

In the SLAM Process protocol, CC of .5 or less is one part of the equation that tells us the water is stable now (together with minimal FC loss overnight and visibly clear water) and that if all 3 are good, you're finished the slam.

So while in end effect, if you add up your FC and your CC from the two steps, you do have 'total" chlorine, that in itself is meaningless.

But each of the FC and CC reading steps is important in the TFP method because it tells you, via the FC/cya ratio, if the water is properly sanitized, and/or in the case of too-low FC and high CC, if trouble is afoot and a slam is in order.

The slam will oxidize the cc material, which is what you want

Its the CC material that gives a heavy chlorine smell. TFP pools don't smell heavily of chlorine.

 

[richardc]

Let me try

FAS/DPD tests two things that are critical elements of TFP pool care, which is why its necessary to use this specific test.

First, it tests your free chlorine - FC.
- add powder to 10 mm mark on tube, turns pink, add and count drops of reagent 087 until clear, divide the number by 2 and that's your FC.

This test is superior to other Free Chlorine tests because it can test to a higher range and is more accurate.

Knowing FC is one half of the "trouble free" equation you can see here: [fc/cya][/fc/cya]

The second part of the FAS/DPD test is for cc, or combined chlorine, whch is chloramines. Think of it as "spent" chlorine that has combined with something, like algae or bacteria or urine or sweat, to neutralize it.

After testing "free" chlorine (chlorine that is ready to go to work) and you've added the last drop to get the sample clear, you now add 5 drops of reagent 003 until you see color -- if there's no color, there's no CC.

If after 1 drop it turns clear, you have .5 ppm of CC. If it takes 2 dros, you have 1 ppm of CC. And so on.

Your CC information is used in part to determine if you might need to slam...or if something else is combining with the chlorine. So if you have a CC of say 2 ppm, its one part of an indication that your "free" chlorine is getting tied up killing something and might need some extra help

In the SLAM Process protocol, CC of .5 or less is one part of the equation that tells us the water is stable now (together with minimal FC loss overnight and visibly clear water) and that if all 3 are good, you're finished the slam.

So while in end effect, if you add up your FC and your CC from the two steps, you do have 'total" chlorine, that in itself is meaningless.

But each of the FC and CC reading steps is important in the TFP method because it tells you, via the FC/cya ratio, if the water is properly sanitized, and/or in the case of too-low FC and high CC, if trouble is afoot and a slam is in order.

The slam will oxidize the cc material, which is what you want

Its the CC material that gives a heavy chlorine smell. TFP pools don't smell heavily of chlorine.

Thank you, I did some reading after that post, and I think I understand the point of the tests. I have my numbers, and they are not pretty:

FC 16.5
CC 5.5
TC 22
PH 7.8
CH 250
TA 220
CYA off the charts, top of the tube still visible (same result from using 10 yr old solution)

I realize that CYA is now an issue, but draining and refilling is not a good option for me as I am on a well, and available water levels are always limited and suspect. If superchlorinating is an option that might be a better way to go for me. Please advise, and as always thank you for your help, and support!

 

[stodds]

CYA off the charts, top of the tube still visible (same result from using 10 yr old solution)

Do you mean that you can see the dot with the tube completely filled? If so, that means zero CYA, not off-the-charts high.

If that is not what you meant, please explain.

 

[richardc]

If draining is the only option to reduce CYA, how much water need be drained? Is there anyway to know? I would worry that my well volume would not sustain the amount needed to flush the system.

Any ideas what trucked in water might cost?

Is it possible that my CYA levels are so high from using powder shock this year (5 bags), or is it an acculmation of chlorine powders that was used in the pool years ago before it was closed?

Does anyone have any experience reducing such high volumes of CYA?

Thank you

 

[stodds]

CYA off the charts, top of the tube still visible (same result from using 10 yr old solution)

Do you mean that you can see the dot with the tube completely filled? If so, that means zero CYA, not off-the-charts high.

If that is not what you meant, please explain.

 

[richardc]

Yes, I can see the dot. It is perfectly visible.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you mean that you can see the dot with the tube completely filled? If so, that means zero CYA, not off-the-charts high.

If that is not what you meant, please explain.

Yes, I can see the dot, it is perfectly visible with solution all the way up the top of the test tube. At best, it is a little cloudy but is perfectly visible.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you mean that you can see the dot with the tube completely filled? If so, that means zero CYA, not off-the-charts high.

If that is not what you meant, please explain.

I took another look at the test tube, and it appears I was reading it backwards...I now see that the numbers decrease as the tube fills. Thus, if I am reading this correctly, with your kind assistance, it appears that CYA is non-existent. Yes???

- - - Updated - - -

A chemist I am not...gees talk about being a novice !!!!!!!

 

[kimkats]

Your CYA is LOW if you can still see the dot when the tube is filled. That is good news! NO drain is needed.

You need to get and add CYA to the water. I would ONLY add enough to get it 30 to start with because you MAY some CYA in the water from the bags. That way you do not overshoot.

We already know you need to do a SLAM. Get the CYA in the water and start the SLAM. Lets get that water looking good!

Kim

 

[richardc]

Your CYA is LOW if you can still see the dot when the tube is filled. That is good news! NO drain is needed.

You need to get and add CYA to the water. I would ONLY add enough to get it 30 to start with because you MAY some CYA in the water from the bags. That way you do not overshoot.

We already know you need to do a SLAM. Get the CYA in the water and start the SLAM. Lets get that water looking good!

Kim

Good morning, and thank you. So how do I add CYA ??? Will the SLAM instructions indicate how much shock to use???

 

[stodds]

Richard,

Pardon my persistence. But, I wanted to save you any trouble, as I suspected you were reading it backwards. This is great news!

This community has been so helpful to me, I try to give back every now and then (there are many that know way more than I do).

 

[richardc]

Richard,

Pardon my persistence. But, I wanted to save you any trouble, as I suspected you were reading it backwards. This is great news!

This community has been so helpful to me, I try to give back every now and then (there are many that know way more than I do).

No, thank you...you gave me a huge relief !!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Can anyone comment on my numbers from my test above. I am curious as to what the FAS DPD test results indicate....thank you

 

[stodds]

pH test results are skewed by FC > 10. Given your low CYA, that level of FC may be bad. So, you should probably use pool math to get CYA to 30 ppm, quickly, while letting your FC drift down. Once FC is less than 10 ppm, test and adjust pH to 7.2 before starting your SLAM.

the CC is an indication that you have organics in your water and the chlorine is attacking it. But, then again, we already knew that!

 

[pooldv]

Yes, high CC means algae and bacteria are growing in the pool. Add 30 ppm of CYA in a sock or knee high in front of a return. More here on how to add chems to your pool, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

Once you get pH adjusted then start the SLAM Process process asap and keep your FC at shock level for CYA of 30. Follow the steps diligently and it will go quickly, SLAM Process

 

[zea3]

Richard, how long ago did you add chlorine before you ran the tests? Back when you used powdered shock in your pool, do you remember if the active ingredient was calcium hypochlorite or dichlor?

 

[kimkats]

Richard have you seen and played with Pool Math? We talked about it earlier I think. That will be your best math friend for the SLAM. It tells you just what to do as far as adding chlorine to reach your goals.

Kim

 

[richardc]

Richard, how long ago did you add chlorine before you ran the tests? Back when you used powdered shock in your pool, do you remember if the active ingredient was calcium hypochlorite or dichlor?

One gallon of pool shock was added last night; today's tests were run about 11 hours later.

- - - Updated - - -

Richard have you seen and played with Pool Math? We talked about it earlier I think. That will be your best math friend for the SLAM. It tells you just what to do as far as adding chlorine to reach your goals.

Kim

Will do, thanx

 

[richardc]

Richard, how long ago did you add chlorine before you ran the tests? Back when you used powdered shock in your pool, do you remember if the active ingredient was calcium hypochlorite or dichlor?

Tests were run about 11 hours after I last added one gallon of pool shock. The shock was added last night.

Years ago, when the pool was up and running, my pool guy used strictly powder; dichlor as the main agent, and trichlor tabs in a dispensing machine.

When I added powder a week or so ago, it was Clorox Xtra blue shock, Dichlor, and copper.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand that I need to add stabilizer. Is leslie's stabilizer ok? What amount should get me up to 30 ppm ? Or will I find that in pool math?