Second Thoughts - Need You Design Experts!!

[matthewsunshineflorida]

I came up with a design that I thought looked pretty nice "on paper" but walking in my backyard and laying out rope outlining a pool makes me feel several things that I'm having a really hard time visualizing:
1) The pool feels really small! I can't help feeling like it looks so small at 14ft and 11ft at the bottleneck - maybe that will be different with the deck and everything? Does this look size appropriate?
2) The deck feels really tight. You can see where the pergola is (notice the 1ft grid), we have about 8.5ft to the spa and about 14ft to the actual pool. Does this feel bigger once there's a deck and everything?
3) It really does make the yard feel tiny imagining the rest blocked off. I could still fit a large swingset but I wouldn't be able to throw a ball across the whole 90ft of the yard anymore (or maybe I could I guess, but no kids playing football). Any regrets for those of you with smaller yards?

Basically I just feel like in person it's making the whole yard feel cramped all around and if I do this thing I want it to be a nice functional space for outdoor entertaining and plenty of space. I don't want to feel super tight in the pool or on the deck. We don't really have a budget, by the way, and are open to reasonable suggestions of switching things up.

What are your experiences and thoughts on this? Should I move the pool up within like 3 feet of the fence?

EDIT: Just found out that the pool I grew up with is about 17' x 32' so this isn't that far off. Maybe it's just really hard for me to visualize?


Larger Pool Option:

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Oh I would go with the second pool....larger is better! 7' deep allows for some shallow dives and great space, IMO.

I personally lose the spa and get a stand alone hot tub and place it closer to the screened in porch. They're so much better at heat, jets, etc, and it would buy you some more space directly on the pool deck area near the pool.

Maddie

 

[Dirk]

Never having owned any spa, pool-integrated or stand-alone (disclaimer!): I never understood the appeal of integrated, other than the look of how it joins the pool (which is arguably very cool). I've read threads here of people struggling, both before, during and after their build, with the dimensions and jets and all kinds of issues of integrated. When the stand-alone industry has been around for so long and absolutely perfected the experience. Integrated owners are starting from scratch and trying to re-invent something that doesn't need to be. With stand-alone you get all the zones and jets and massagers, and who-knows-what-all-else, in terms of comfort. With integrated you get a square concrete bench and six jets, that may or may not hit your back just right, because even if you spec them exactly, they rarely come out that way, apparently. Pool builders don't necessarily have the fine control over gunite and plaster to make the perfect spa experience.

Anyway, I agree that the spa is in the wrong place. I'd move it over in front of the master bedroom. Does that bedroom have access to the yard (glass door or something)? It should. Add a nice slider or french doors if not. Then the spa would be a few tip-toes away, on a cold night, from your "master suite."

The spa is dominating and consuming your entertaining space. And if it's raised it's blocking your view to the pool, which could be a safety issue. From where you will most likely sit to watch family and guests and kids, you should have a clear view of the entire bottom of the pool. I'd want a table under that overhang, and I don't think there's room for that as is. Plot out a big table with chairs, then figure what it'll be like with chairs pulled out and people trying to get around it.

I really like the idea of your staking out the pool to conceptualize it. I've suggested that before to others, but also encourage them to go one step farther. Get some stakes and string from the hardware store and lay everything out. Pool perimeter, including steps and benches, etc, everything, spa, too. Then plot out the decking and that overhang if it's not already built. Use your own, or borrow, or buy or even stake out everything else: table(s), chairs, lounges, drink tables, the fire pit and chairs, everything. Pull chairs out from tables and pit. Lay a few towels on the deck (kids do that) and throw some big loungie toys into the "pool." Then walk around everything, in and out of the pool. You'll get a much better idea of what it's going to be like. Now's the time to take this extra effort. Otherwise, everything will be in stone, literally, and you'll be stuck with it if you later realize your pool or deck are not practical and/or designed to your liking. Stare at if for a few days or weeks. Adjust the stakes and strings as needed throughout the process.

A bigger pool is more fun, and can hold more people. A smaller pool is less expensive to operate, especially if you plan to heat it.

All pool lights should be on the wall nearest the house, pointing away from the house and sitting area(s). You won't like them on if you can see the bulb from where you want to enjoy them.

I like your big, long bench.

I like a deep end, I'd go 7.5' or 8'. I like to dive into my pool, and "swoosh" through the deep end. Kids like to jump into a pool: cannon balls and jack knifes. I have a jumping rock that gets used a lot. My pool is 7.5 and I wish it was a little deeper. You've got a good swim lane (uninterrupted stretch from end to end). Your bench should be an extension of one of the steps (you don't have it drawn that way), so that that second or third step is on the same level as the bench, and you can just walk right off a step onto the bench. If you do go with an integrate spa, or a stand-alone that is very close like that (which I think is cool), you might have another step for that. Leaping out of the spa into the pool and then getting back in will be a common pathway, why not make it easy to do.

I don't see any chaise lounges in your design. Can't have a pool without at least two, and room for them out in the sun. Better plot those out. Along with the little drink table between the two, they take up a lot of room, like 6' square at least, plus room to walk around them. You don't want where to put them to be an after thought.

Think about shade over your pool. I fly a small shade sail over mine, because even though I'm in the water, I still like a place to hide from the sun. Others use umbrellas for that.

That's all I got for now...

 

[riley00dog]

I also suggest loosing the spa. It really divides the patio where it is and looks like it would interfere with the flow of traffic. I would go a rectangular shape in the larger size. To me the bigger size seems that you won’t be loosing any more yard, just deck space on the sides and back. As long as you can comfortably walk around it and brush etc it’s enough. Your design looks like most people will go from patio into pool and back.

We have a smaller yard but similar set up, in that the pool takes up the majority of one side of the yard. We didn’t have room to go bigger and at the far side of the pool we can’t walk around as the roller for the pool cover is in the way. That’s how tight it is. Any regrets? Absolutely none. Sure I miss having a bigger yard, but it was never awesome. Now it is [emoji41][emoji16]

 

[JamesW]

Go with a bigger pool and deck.

When you're young, you are smaller. So, the relative size is hard to judge.

I would do 5 foot deck all around. 3 foot is too narrow.

 

[Arizonarob]

I personally lose the spa and get a stand alone hot tub and place it closer to the screened in porch. They're so much better at heat, jets, etc, and it would buy you some more space directly on the pool deck area near the pool.

^^^^^This.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Thanks so much for such diverse input guys! Really really helpful. A few things that I guess I did not explain well and will try to clear up (along with a design with extra deck space and some clarifications)...

1 - FIBERGLASS: I'm looking at fiberglass pools so these are Viking Molds (same for the spa). Leaning toward this because my parents concrete pool has needed constant work over the years and fixing leaks/resealing 3 times in 20 years has made me wary. I don't want to replace a vinyl liner every 3-5 years and I want my dog and kids to go crazy in the pool without scratching a liner. Because of that, the pool mold is how it is so I can't make changes to it (though I haven't hired a company so I can go with any manufacturer if you guys have other suggestions).


2 - STAND ALONE SPA: My main complaint with stand alone spas is in my experience (maybe 10 of them), they are rarely comfortable for more than 3 or sometimes 4 people and it would be nice to have 6 or even 8 - even if that means there aren't as many jets on each of them. I would want to be able to entertain and the step built into the pool from the spa just seems so nice to be able to get out of the spa and sit on that ledge in the pool and still talk to people in the spa to get some change of temperature (maybe that's just me?). Also, I figure when it rains, it will be easy to have your stuff under the covered pergola and then get into the hot tub to enjoy the rain.


3 - DECK SPACE: The slats thing represents an idea for a sort of 10x28 pergola that will extend out from the house (like a "modern" porch) with one of those retractable liners for shade. So there's almost 15ft of deck from the screen to the pool and 9ft to the spa - you guys feel like that still bottlenecks at the spa too much? My main concern was the left/right of the pool, I thought there was enough at the bottom.


4 - NO SCREEN: This is in Tampa, Florida so I plan to have no cage and let the sun heat it up. We aren't near any bodies of water so I figure the bugs won't be bad with some tiki torches and/or spray and/or zapper systems (even just the torches we have do great). Therefore, I was thinking about not doing a spillover to make the spa easier to heat?


5 - MASTER ACCESS: There's no access from the Master Bedroom into the yard - there are five 3'x7' windows separated by a half wall to create a sitting area. Sliders would severely take away from the symmetry but there are sliders from the master to the screened in porch so the current design does give access directly to the outside.


6 - LARGER POOL: So many of you seem to really think the larger pool is worth it. My main concern is that eliminates a walkway above the pool (2-4 feet) and on the right/left side (2 feet). I could move it to the right but that would mess up the symmetry. I could make the deck wider on the right, but that too might look odd unless I extend the left? Is the fire pit too tight up against the pool in this arrangement? It also makes the deck jut out into the first master bedroom window - not a huge priority but might look odd and reduce the feeling of master bed privacy.


7 - NEW LAYOUT: I widened the deck space to give more room and made it a big rectangle. Put an umbrella on the bottom left to fill the space? I don't really know - I'm fluent in photoshop but am terrible at actually visualizing stuff which is why this is so helpful for me to map it out to scale and get input from people!

 

[Dirk]

1. Can't advise. My pool's pebble is only a year old. So far no issues. Except: shop around for other layouts. Neither of these seem to really fit that space all that well.

2. Excellent reasoning. You gotta do what's right for the way you want to use everything.

3. I don't get the slatted roof thing. Mine had those when I bought the house, first thing I did was put a metal roof over both. I still get plenty of light and plenty of air, and real shade. And they're now usable in the winter, and will never fade or become damaged due to age or sun. Your retractable sounds cool, but when would you retract it? When do you not want shade? I'm guessing it'd stay open all summer, and you'd miss it in the winter (unless you can use them in the rain and they don't drip on you).

4. Your neighbors would know if the screen/no screen is sound thinking. Heating an integrated spa is something I was just learning about the other day. It sounds like something one needs to understand and be clear on up front. Good to hear you have a handle on that.

5. Roger that.

6. Let go of symmetry. That is something you're seeing in your drawing, from a bird's eye view, and not something that will matter much to anyone in reality (except you maybe?). As a graphic designer often tasked to start from others' ideas/sketches, I have to deal with the notion of symmetry all the time. It's not necessary. Don't get me wrong, it's fine, and sometimes appropriate, especially if you like it. But symmetry is not particularly interesting. The juxtaposition of positive and negative space, when done correctly, is every bit as attractive, often more interesting, and can free you from the bonds imposed by trying to center everything. Your existing house and yard are not cooperating with your attempt at symmetry anyway, why fight them. Put the pool where it makes practical sense, then balance the design in other ways.

7. JamesW's post: I agree, where you can: five foot minimum on the surrounding deck, minimum. Extend the right side. I liked some of the curves in your original layout. Maybe follow the curve above the pool with the deck, see what that looks like.

Try moving the pool down and to the right. I like seeing my pool from my master bedroom window. Get more deck above (behind). Maybe move the pergola to the left of the pool? Put the table and chairs under it. Get rid of umbrella (it'll just be blowing over in the wind, and it's shade will only cover the table and chairs for an hour a day). Move the fire pit to where the umbrella is now. (Yes, currently those fire pit chairs are too close to the pool.) Do they offer a "flipped" version of that same pool, the stairs would be better on the other side if you move the pergola. With the spa closer to the screen room door, you'll still be able to sneak out to it while it's raining.

Keep playing around with it. Don't get locked into what you have, necessarily. Use those Photoshop skills to your advantage, start spitting out totally different designs, even if you're sure you won't like them. I sometimes get stuck in a design, and realize only after forcing myself to break free of it that I come up with something better by doing so. Crank 'em out. Sometimes even the ones that don't work can inspire an idea that will.

 

[kimkats]

Here are MY ideas!

-push bigger pool all the way to the left. Lose that seating area at the end to push the pool that way. That frees up a LOT of your yard for play space. That is SO important for kids! You will still seating with the space where the umbrella is. The decking can end at the right side of the pergola. That way your bedroom privacy is saved as well.

-Go with the smaller pool (booooooooo but.........) and turn it so the long edge is along the left fence area. The main thing I don't like about this idea, other than a smaller pool, is the fact the steps will be way over there instead of right as you walk out. BUT look at the yard space you have then!!

Now lets see you make a picture of that so we can see what it looks like.

Kim

 

[Dirk]

I just looked, Viking has other pools with the steps reversed. If you do a version as I suggested, shoved over to the right, plop the Trinidad in there.

 

[Arizonarob]

On your pergola. Don’t get the retractable cloth kind, as a friend of mine over in West Palm did that, and it lasted 2 years before it was done.
Look for the type that the slats open and close with the push of a button. They can be angled anyway you like, and waterproof when closed. Which will come in very handy during those downpours FL is notoriously know for.

 

[sktn77a]

I've never heard anyone say "I wish my pool was smaller" but I have heard people say "I wish I'd gone bigger"! Also, each type of pool comes with it's own pros and cons. Fiberglass, for example, blisters, cracks, chips, chalks, etc, etc. There's no such thing as the perfect pool, 20 years down the road.

 

[Qwijib0]

As a counterpoint to the separate spa folk, I love having one integrated system and not having to manage separate always-hot low-water-volume chemistry. I don't really miss the fancy jets, I have bubbles and hot water.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

You guys are AWESOME. So helpful to hear fresh ideas when you're stuck in the same mindset (thanks for the reassurance about the integrated spa too Quijib0). I've done some new renders at the bottom and I'll put topics again below because as Dirk called me out on, I am ridiculous about organization of information flow and it helps me think (ha):


1) SYMMETRY: You're absolutely right, I am type A personality with strong emphasis on organization and have a hard time letting creativity flow without symmetry. I have tried to get away from that a bit with my renders even though it hurts my soul - let me know what you think.


2) PERGOLA: You're right about its existence exclusively for shade - I don't really ever plan on retracting it, I just want it to be a "second porch" for shade. However, I don't think my HOA is going to approve a permanent metal roof on a structure. One of you mentioned (vinyl?) slats that turn - that is REALLY helpful and I will look into it.


3) FIRE PIT: The fire pit is, ironically, my wife's only absolute non negotiable big thing she wants. She wants plenty of space for it too so I can't just do a corner or even semicircle against the wall. Anything you guys can suggest in the way of that would make her more willing to let me go big (hard time getting the big pool so far).


4) MASTER BEDROOM: My wife clarified even the deck can't extend past the Master Bedroom wall even if the pool doesn't (thought I was slick trying to get around that though). Change to the original render and new ones because of this.


5) DIRK SUGGESTIONS: I can't move it to the right because of the above. However, I did try the Trinidad - see my renders below. I actually really like that there are benches built into the pool right next to the spa. Spa does look a bit small at 6.5' round (4 people max I'd assume) and the steps are on the wrong side it looks like but it looks interesting otherwise. I also used a variation of your suggestion moving it aysmmetrically left - thoughts??


6) KIM SUGGESTIONS: I think I used what you were basically talking about moving it left - let me know if that's what you mean or if you have other thoughts! Your smaller pool sideways is interesting but unfortunately the yard is only 33' deep so a 30' pool isn't possible. I really like your line of thinking too though, it's so helpful to get me out of my set mindset.


7) OTHER THOUGHTS: The Poseidon could work with these modifications (is it too tight or okay?). The trinidad looks okay but comes with some inconveniences (notably steps in wrong place and spa is quite small especially once you factor in the steps to the spa but still a possibility). The only thing I'm seeing that looks visually fantastic is the Triton but with her requiring the deck end at the master, it's offset to the left and there's definitely wasted yard space on the top left and bottom left. I also included a render of Synergy (Trilogy Pools) that I like the look of but don't know that it fits any better.


Can't thank you guys enough for such helpful input!! Renders below:

Poseidon Left Pergola



Poseidon Right Pergola



Poseidon Upside Down



Synergy Right Pergola



Trinidad



Triton Offset

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

 

[kimkats]

Okay I think it is time to have pics of the "real porch and yard". I am really liking the first pic of this bunch. It just feels right. I like how you walk past it to get to the pool. The covered area to the left will not block the sight line from the screen porch to the pool as much there.

Your pick is a good one but your Type A is showing with it LOL shift the covered pergola over to the right so it is centered on the screen porch instead of centering it on the pool. I do worry about the sight line from the screen porch.

You got what I was saying! Good job! Looks like your wife and I am on the same page for the master bedroom LOL Your not a slick as you think you are!

So am I reading that wife wants the 30' pool instead of the 40'? What is her thinking/reason?

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Now you're cookin'! Love that you tried all sorts of ideas. Keep going, or start staking, or both!! How much time do you have? To stake out one or more of these ideas? Or use different colors of contractor's string to layout more than one, if you think you can visualize more than one at a time that way.



Is freeform gunite completely off the table? Maybe something to revisit... to maximize the space you've allowed for the pool, and fit everything in where it needs to live. As I look over your current set of options, there seems to always be at least one thing that could be in a better location... mostly the dern steps!

Curious, is the porch door in stone? Can it and/or those columns be moved? Or made much wider? Like a set of sliders or folding doors that could open up that whole room to the pool?

Bummer about the HOA rule on the solid pergola roof. How do you get that determined? Do they have an "exception" policy? Crazy idea (yah, that's what I do around here!): any thought to solar heater for pool? That, or some portion of that, could go on top of the pergola, which would require a solid roof. It's illegal for an HOA to forbid solar. There are some "rules" to how that goes down, but it might be something to leverage if push comes to shove. You want to honor the spirit of the rules of the HOA for the sake of the neighbors, as you would want them to, but everything is negotiable, one way or another.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Kimkats - I agree, the first one was my favorite (and your quips about my personality and wife are so right haha). The main issue with that is the fire pit closes off access to the right side of the house and to the steps. Also, she apparently really likes circular pits and there's just not enough room there (she also really doesn't like it so close to the house). Still a REALLY solid pick IMO looks natural and open - but take a look at the one she sat down with me to come up with below. Also, pool size is mainly because she really doesn't want the deck to feel cramped and needs room for her fire pit. I THINK we have some good solutions to that issue though. I've seen a bunch of photos of the Triton 30' vs the Poseidon 40' and it just seems so much more functional for (I would guess) not that much more money.

Dirk - Timing? Whenever. I don't personally care but my wife would LIKE to have it done before thanksgiving but is that really practical? Probably not. Gunite freeform? I don't like the texture unless it's expoxied and that feel still doesn't seem to last - and I really don't want to have to refinish it all the time. My parent's gunite was done 3 times in 20 years and frankly could have been done way more often (seemed to always have cracks forming even though the epoxy). I'm hoping with proper care and install, a fiberglass pool could last for decades with little to no shell fixes but maybe that's far too optimistic. Porch door is just aluminum frame and could be moved relatively easily. Columns are block and load bearing so no. Solar? Yes, something to consider in the future but at least initially I'd like to see how it does in direct sunlight (vs being screened in). Others have it so I know it's allowed and our roof is MASSIVE so it's a good candidate but again my biased history with panels on roof is my parents' issues with leaks so I'd rather see how direct sun does. Pergola roof? I think I could get away with a roof for it, but I'd just be shocked if they let it be sheet metal (my backyard goes to a cul de sac on the other side so highly visible). My guess is I could shingle it or do slats or white vinyl slats or something but not metal for aesthetics and noise.

My wife cooperated with me to do a design with a live production of her feedback and we came up with a design that we both REALLY love that I think fixes some of our issues. Let us know what you guys think!

Couple Pros:
1) SUN - The top is West which means when the sun sets, it would be ideal to be facing the house.
2) FIREPIT - She doesn't want the fire pit on the side of the house (lol) but really loves where it is in this design.
3) SHADE - Smaller 18x10 pergola for shade but should still have enough room for at least 2 lounge chairs and 4 can be squeezed in.
4) SPACE - Walkway to the right and left are completely clear to go to the other side of the yard or to get around the pool much easier

Cons:
1) RAIN - Can't go right from the porch to the covered pergola in the rain
2) DISTANCE - Gotta walk around the pool to get inside the porch.
3) STAIRS - If I could, I'd switch the fire pit and lounge chairs if the stairs could be swapped but not a big deal.

Anyway, just because I'm excited that my wife agreed to something doesn't mean it's all kosher so please be as critical as possible to help us get to the right final plan.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that there is irrigation all through the back yard. Where the pool is there are 3 heads that go to the right and could be rerouted but I'm not sure the best way to do that before laying concrete. I can do anything that needs to be done with irrigation but would need some direction in terms of where to make the runs in a design like this - i.e. do I just reroute the stuff that goes within 5 feet of the pool and then just eliminate the heads that are under the concrete and leave the runs and let them pour over them?

 

[Dirk]

Landscape irrigation is no biggie. It'll likely all get torn out, either from the dig or the plumbing trenches. Discuss a plan with your PB, and his plumber. Not really something to be concerned too much about at this stage. You'll get advice to run all kinds of things under and/or around your deck, for extra hose bibs, extra power outlets, irrigation, speaker wires, landscape lighting, pergola lighting, overhead fan(s), heck, even video, ethernet, etc. Run it all! Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

I like the round pit, for sure. I like areas in and out of shade for the big loungers. The pergola could be wider, you'll know once you stake everything out and try out how things fit. Buy now or borrow your pool furniture so you can see it in place with the stakes and strings, walk around it, sit in it, etc. "Pool life" will be on the back side of the pool, in which case the stairs are on the correct side. It'll be a trek to the bathroom, and to refill drinks, etc. That's the trade off. One other con: I had mentioned the light placement: if they're on the house side, you won't like looking at the bulbs while in the spa or hanging out at the pit. If they're on the pergola side, you won't like looking at the bulbs from inside the house.

If it was up to me? I'd have four colored pool lights, two on each side, all on separate switches. Turn on any or all to fit the mood. Landscape lighting. Pergola bistro lights. A few floods to light it all up when needed.

Come to think of it, just give me or Kim your credit card number, we'll have this all straightened out for you in a jiffy.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

AUTOMATION! Speakers!!! Yes! I have already made the rest of the house a smart home - every single light fixture, the AC, the vacuum, they all change when we are home/leave, time of day or in response to Alexa all over the house. I can't wait to say "Alexa, turn on 'Long Week' mode" *Turns inside lighting to 3000k warm dim lights, turns inside ceiling and outdoor speakers to some Bethoven, turns on spa heater, turns the TV in the gazeebo to ESPN, set landscape lights... OH MAN I CAN'T WAIT. Okay that's probably not all practical without giving you my card and ignoring the bills as they roll in, but I'll definitely ask about that stuff and see what's reasonable. I think running some power and speaker wire to the gazeebo/pergola might be reasonable though. I could do a portable fridge under some sort of cabinet right next to the hot tub to make drinks easier. Good call on the "in pool" lights - did not occur to me either.

Pergola size - I agree, made it 24' here, I think that looks better, yea?


So it's looking like we're between that design or the 2nd offset Triton design depending on the wife, cost, and whether we can for sure do a pergola/gazeebo up against the fence like that. I think I like the design of the larger pool better too except that it would be more convenient to have the sitting area closer to the door. Still more than up for changes from all these pros though and either way I'll be asking about equipment!


Waiting to hear back from one builder tonight and another 2 this week. Let me know if you have any suggestions on dealing with these guys (questions to ask, things to look for).