Second Thoughts - Need You Design Experts!!

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Yea I'm definitely not feeling the urgency now and feel "talked off the ledge" but still hanging out nearby ha. I still am willing to entertain suggestions and quotes to either see if that makes a big enough difference for us or at least help us prepare for the future and will keep you guys updated and try to keep an open mind.

Speaking of which, I finally got an email from the initial person I talked to (who was my initial preferred with good reviews but has been extremely slow getting back to me). Here is the relevant part of his email:
All things needed for the pool build would probably budget $64k - $67k. That would include all, permits, crane, water, pool, spa, waterline tile, electric heat pump, automation for the valves/controls, color led lighting, salt water, variable speed pump, paver deck per your layout, and rough grade on yard. An actual site visit, would help fine tune the numbers.

This seems like a noticeable difference given the other quote was over $60k for no deck, no coping or waterline tile, no gas hookup/permits, lighting, salt(?), and no electric heat pump. Couple questions: Is this guy planning on using that heat pump for the pool AND spa or just the pool and a gas one for the spa? I thought heat pumps didn't work well below like 50 degrees and wouldn't be able to heat the spa on demand? Also, is everyone doing salt now - I thought that was a California thing that was bad for your pool long term despite being good for skin? What does rough grade the lawn mean in the context of already having had to grade for the pavers?

Anyway, this seems like it's all in $10k-$15k lower than the other quote once you factor in the other stuff. Still way higher than I wanted to spend, but does that mean there's margin for negotiating this down a little? Why is there such a large gap between PBs for something as straight forward as fiberglass? Either way, it would be helpful to get as much info as possible for now or the future (I do really feel like I want to do this one day).

Also, just to be thinking as long term as possible, I did look at other homes even up to 40% more expensive than ours and I really don't see anything I really want in another home other than a larger backyard which is rare and usually comes without the community we have here. I don't feel that's something worth it when we have so many parks and a usually dry huge drainage field a few minutes walk away (for football, running the dog etc) - I really love everything about this house and don't feel a pull to anything on the market. I wish we backed up to a preserve instead of a cul de sac with another person's driveway and part of the side of their house but maybe that's a simple fix with tall shrubs/trees to make it feel more secluded? We already have huge oaks and it's a very mature area.

Here's my (years old) actual satellite image and a few photos of the house with the back highlighted so you can get an idea of what I'm looking at with the other house/cul de sac and general layout of the area. Do you think it's even possible to get some privacy and create my Oasis back here one day? The big tree on the side has been removed and the others have been significantly trimmed back away from the side and back yards just to clear that up.






From Inside Patio - This would be looking right out at the pool:


From Corner Outside Master Bedroom:


Wide View:


Layout For Reference:

 

[Dirk]

You're not wrong Dirk - that is absolutely fair criticism! Thanks for being patient. I'm a young guy trying to imagine things that aren't here and it's tough to make life decisions based on that

Oh, no, not meant as a criticism at all. Please don't take it that way. I was just messin' with you. I work through threads in which the OPs are just looking for others to say "Great, you're brilliant, do it just like that." and are not open to fresh ideas, at all. Patient? Me? No thanks needed. It's rewarding to have someone listen to your ideas, whether they use them, reject them or modify them. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you, and I really was only teasing about the second thoughts. As I said before, I applaud your thought process and we could all take note of how its done.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

It's been a real pleasure chatting with you, and I really was only teasing about the second thoughts.

Oh I absolutely know that! It's very much sincerely appreciated and did not take me down a notch in ANY way - I am very much thankful for your helpful input! Sorry if I came off frustrated with ya, I positively am not and have felt jovial from the get go.

Also, I'm not sure if you got a chance to see my post because it was just a couple minutes before yours but feel free to take a look and your honest criticism sincerely really is appreciated!

Finally, I threw together a couple quick renders of the actual yard that are SO good I bet you wouldn't even know it's a render and not real life without me telling ya Let me know if you think this is plausible whether now or long term or if I'm just trying to do too much in too little of a space:

 

[riley00dog]

It is absolutely possible. I can pm you later a photo of our yard. As I mentioned earlier, although our yard is smaller, proportionally it’s quite similar. We feel like our yard is quite private, despite being surrounded by houses like you. I love your yard render with the pool. So much better than what our pb gave us lol.

 

[Dirk]

I got a better sense of your yard from the photos, but not yet any new inspirations. I'll keep staring at the photos. Keep doing what you're doing, and now that you've taken a step back, I think you're in an excellent space for this process, one in which I think you'll be able to better decide the right course of action.

I'll say this, though. I make a living using Photoshop, and often render non-existent objects in front of or behind others, including matching 3D perspectives. I'm pretty good at it, so I can say with some authority... you've got some chops, sir!

How much time did you spend on those chairs? (Even if you did cheat on the net!)

PS. OK, I do have one actual criticism for you, now that I can see from inside the screen room. I can't figure out how you've gotten that BBQ setup to work. I would think it would choke you out in there, and/or trash your screens or ceiling with smokey/greasy stains. My exterior wall behind my grill doesn't look too good, I know that. I'm not seeing that as a long time good idea, and might suggest you include some sort of exterior location for the grill. Which might influence how you "spend" your yard in terms of fitting everything in...

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

It is absolutely possible. I can pm you later a photo of our yard. As I mentioned earlier, although our yard is smaller, proportionally it’s quite similar. We feel like our yard is quite private, despite being surrounded by houses like you. I love your yard render with the pool. So much better than what our pb gave us lol.

Thanks and definitely send that over - that's super helpful!

I'll say this, though. I make a living using Photoshop, and often render non-existent objects in front of or behind others, including matching 3D perspectives. I'm pretty good at it, so I can say with some authority... you've got some chops, sir!

How much time did you spend on those chairs? (Even if you did cheat on the net!)

PS. OK, I do have one actual criticism for you, now that I can see from inside the screen room. I can't figure out how you've gotten that BBQ setup to work. I would think it would choke you out in there, and/or trash your screens or ceiling with smokey/greasy stains. My exterior wall behind my grill doesn't look too good, I know that. I'm not seeing that as a long time good idea, and might suggest you include some sort of exterior location for the grill. Which might influence how you "spend" your yard in terms of fitting everything in...

Hahaha only someone who uses photoshop would realize the chairs were irritating. Well the full yard photo was quick but yea the patio photo took me 5 minutes JUST messing with the distort tool to figure out how to get the angles close to right (ended up using Distort and warp but WAY far out literally stretched onto my other monitor) and yea another 10 minutes or so cutting the screen out with polygon lasso and after cutting out one of the forty holes in the chairs I just went crazy with the magic wand which is tacky but worked fine... anddd I definitely did NOT notice my ping pong table net until you just said that! Sat there looking at my photo like "what the heck net is he talking about?!!" before I saw it. So funny. Oh well, none of the rest of it is excellent work either if you look closely - I just wanted it to be good enough to trick the mind enough to be able to understand spatially about how it would look - feel like it turned out pretty decent for a quick thing.

For the BBQ - that fan actually kicks it out almost completely since the smoke has two directions to go and I don't get wind coming in because of the fence. We hang out there with friends while grilling and never have had an issue for a year and a half. Now, I'm sure there would be some staining at the top if it wasn't blue but that's part of the magic Not worth messing with a hood or anything - it really does a fine enough job and if I have to degrease and repaint the ceiling in 5 years that's ok with me. Or I guess I could put one of my Vornados on top of the fridge - that sucker would blow smoke out the screen all the way to the neighbor 3 doors down. Also, these are old photos so that tree behind the fridge is gone and the new grill has 4 great wheels so we could easily wheel it out if we had a deck out there.

 

[kimkats]

Looking at the mock up in the real yard and by the real house I say you have the set up purrfect! I really like the pergola over on that side. It make the whole area really tie into the house and screened porch.

Your house and yard is SO pretty! Did you pick the house color? Those trees are outstanding! I see why you would not want to move AND then what you say about your neighbors......yeah you are in for the long run!

Kim

 

[Poolbella]

I definitely agree about calling for appointments vs online forms or email, I hate talking on the phone because they can never understand my foreign accent, but sometimes it’s the only way

We went through a lot of the same thoughts you are having. We’re spending 20% of the value of our home and getting what is really a low budget pool for this area. But I spent weeks looking for houses that would cost the same as our total spend on this and couldn’t come even close to what we will have in the end. And that’s without factoring in the actual cost of moving, with fees and movers and all the other things you end up having to pay for. We built this house with everything we wanted in it, and I’m just not ready to leave it!

 

[Dirk]

the patio photo took me 5 minutes JUST messing with the distort tool to figure out how to get the angles close to right

With the pool on its own layer, try "Free Transform" and drag the handles (any of the 8) with somewhat obscure key combinations and you'll be able to skew an object into 3D perspective with ease, much easier than with Warp, though same principle (not sure how you're using Distort, I rarely use those menu commands)...

 

[Dirk]

You're all set.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

So I come back to you all in shameful recompense for having abandoned my project in 2018, but ask for your most gracious forgiveness as we have now decided to commit to it and pray you will take us back into the fold.

Because we had so much time to think and pay attention to dozens of neighbors/friends pools over the past couple years, we are taking a different direction with a few changes in priorities. Your input has been so helpful, and we now are ready to work on a final design and find the best builder here in Tampa (if anyone has recommendations!). Let me know your thoughts, here is what we're switching up from before:
1) We're definitely screening in. In October/Nov 2018 we felt like the weather was nice and the bugs were rarely out but after paying more attention to what most of the year is like in Tampa, it just wouldn't be swimmable anywhere near dusk and sometimes even hours after because of the number mosquitoes we have.
2) We decided to go gunite so that we could customize it. I have read that, done right in stable soil, we could expect gunite to last 2-3x as long as fiberglass especially with a good pebbletec finish - so the maintenance might not be as bad as I thought, assuming we get a really well done install.
3) It occurs to us that when we have kids, it would be nice to have a small sunshelf/stairs for them to play on which allows us to make the shallow end slightly deeper (3.5'? 4'?). The sunshelf is sort of like deck space anyway so I don't think we'd lose much by adding it. I also like the idea of having the stairs go down one side but not the other, so that you can swim/walk up to the top step to play with the kiddos or smack the wife's rear or something.
4) We love the outdoor kitchens and our neighbors finished a fantastic one that is under the roofed patio that connects to the pool - cool idea and I can do all the work except tying in a drain line, wonder if we can get PB to rough in the plumbing for us and I'd do the rest? Also trying to decide on a little side dry bar or an L shaped deal.
5) Also under the patio roof, we think it would be cool to do a sectional with a gas fire table in the middle (with at least a 12" space around the edge for plates/cups), and a TV on the back wall.

Everything else is the same. I still want a built in spa with room for 4 comfortably and 8 if we squeezed in, my wife still wants her designated fire pit, a shaded space to eat, lounge chair space. I am still concerned about pool size but do feel like if we section off the pool with unique freeform shaped spaces it might feel plenty large for kids and adults to hang out. The main things I don't like about friends pools is too small deck space, too boring pool design/landscaping, and generally just feeling like a hole in the ground instead of an aquatic escape all around. I want to have landscaping, water features, and elements that make me feel like I'm at a nice small private resort, instead of in PVC fenced in green grass suburbian yard.

So this is the design that I have tentatively done (so far, feel free to critique!). A spa with a 7x9 ft. inside diameter spa, the left edge of the pool (below the spa) to the right edge of the pool is ~26ft, top most part of the pool to bottom steps is showing ~23 ft. I made pool seating shelves on the left and back sides, thinking those would be areas for kids to swim up to or for adults to chill near similar to a hot tub bench but for hotter months. The black rectangle represents the screened in area, and each grid is 1x1 ft. I'm also considering taking the screen out to the left of the patio to be a square instead of going forward before left, but it would be about a foot away from the tree and wife feels like it might look like a weird add on.



Let me know your thoughts about anything from practicality of design to picking a builder because the PB part, especially, just seems so terrible vs any other industry I've hired out to.

EDIT: Also please let me know if I should be starting a new thread instead. Just realized the title is no longer relevant

 

[kimkats]

Let me read over the thread again. My gut says lets keep it all here to keep the story together! Be right back!

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Ahh true - we all love a great redemption story of the prodigal son, makes sense to me haha thanks Kim

 

[kimkats]

@Dirk our son is back!!! Come on over and see what he is up to now!!! LOL

Matthew I have thought about you and your pool a few times wondering what was happening in your life!! SO sweet to see you coming back home!

Bird cage=good idea!! I am guessing the budget grew just a bit over 2018.

I'm also considering taking the screen out to the left of the patio to be a square instead of going forward before left, but it would be about a foot away from the tree and wife feels like it might look like a weird add on.

Not sure what you mean. Please use your skills to show me what you mean.

-What are you thinking of for depths? I will tell you no LESS than 3'5" but would love to see 4' for the shallow end.
-Will you take off the the screen porch screen so it all one large space from the patio out to the pool all under the bird cage? (don't want to guess so asking to make sure)
-shelf-I don't want to show you my very babyish paint skills so hope you can follow what I am saying.....ready? Look at the lounge chairs. See the square the left one is in.....see where the thick line touches the pool? Start the shelf there and over to decking "bump" on the left side of the shelf. That makes it bigger without taking up much more room.
-steps and bench-have the steps smaller and hugging the wall. I would remove the bench on the left side of the spa BUT do keep the one on the right. That will allow you to have the steps there. This will give you a swim lane from one end of the pool to the other as well.

On your mark, get set, GO!!!

Kim

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

our son is back!!! Come on over and see what he is up to now!!! LOL
Matthew I have thought about you and your pool a few times wondering what was happening in your life!! SO sweet to see you coming back home!

Lol I really appreciate that! Not too much has changed in our lives other than that we go out a little less (especially now) and have been improving the house. I ended up buying another rental property instead of the pool in 2018 because it was more of a sure thing for me, and I actually was weighing doing the same this year vs a pool, but COVID has made me leery of another property until I see some stability in the market so we figured we'd just take the proverbial plunge and do this thing.
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Bird cage=good idea!! I am guessing the budget grew just a bit over 2018.

Yep, although I still would like to still be in the higher end of that same ballpark $60k, $70k, $80k ideally absolute max. I'm hoping gunite will be cheaper as some other Tampa people mentioned on TFP and that will offset the screen some - but yes we do have more flexibility so if we get our dream space for $80k I'd be willing to go there now, knowing how consistently we would use it. Last time, one of the guys came to $62k for the fiberglass 14x30 Triton and the 8x9 spa with all the automation, VSP, SWG, footers for screen but no screen. We'll see what the quotes look like and go from there.
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Not sure what you mean. Please use your skills to show me what you mean.

I just mean extending the deck space to the left of the current patio (which is connected to the rest of the house with a seamless roof). I actually think it looks good on the 2D but wife is concerned about the roots of the tree being a PITA over time, dropping sticks/stuff on the screen, and not having any green space visible on that side of the patio.

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-What are you thinking of for depths? I will tell you no LESS than 3'5" but would love to see 4' for the shallow end.
-Will you take off the the screen porch screen so it all one large space from the patio out to the pool all under the bird cage? (don't want to guess so asking to make sure)
-shelf-I don't want to show you my very babyish paint skills so hope you can follow what I am saying.....ready? Look at the lounge chairs. See the square the left one is in.....see where the thick line touches the pool? Start the shelf there and over to decking "bump" on the left side of the shelf. That makes it bigger without taking up much more room.
-steps and bench-have the steps smaller and hugging the wall. I would remove the bench on the left side of the spa BUT do keep the one on the right. That will allow you to have the steps there. This will give you a swim lane from one end of the pool to the other as well.

1) I'm not opposed to 3.5' or even 4' because I feel like it would make the shallow end more useful (I could sort of kneel and feel covered), if we had the sun shelf and stairs area that large so that young kids could hang there. I don't know what the discussion is though. On the deep end, I really enjoyed being able to swim down playing games as a kid, but I think for a smaller distance the most use of the space would be in the 5.5-7' range. I wouldn't want a slope that makes most of the middle of the pool unusable for lounging though so as you can see I'm pretty undecided about this part...
2) Yes the porch screen would be taken off, all under one screen now - that way the area is tied together.
3) That might allow us to have two lounge chairs on the shelf or something, good idea - going to try it. The only negative I could see is that half of the square could be a great hang out space away from kids who would be more towards the middle of the pool - whereas if I extend the shelf it pushes you more into that lane. Something to think about, will talk to the boss and see what she thinks.
4) Yea I guess the steps do jut out a bit too far, especially that last one would be right in the way of someone walking, good point. Are you saying remove that bench and have the stairs hug the left side of the wall? That could be interesting, would have more swim space. I do like the idea of the bench there since it's shallow end and creates two different spaces but it might not work if there's not enough space - definitely need to adjust those stairs.

All great points, really helpful. Let me know if you have any other thoughts about the pool or even the deck/patio areas - it's hard to visualize scale when you're just putting down cartoonish chairs and lounge stuff so I want to make sure I have plenty of room to feel spacious but still have the ability to put well spaced large plant pots in various places. I want it to feel like I'm outside even though I'm under a screen. Lots of landscaping and open feeling has been my favorite feature of larger screened in pool decks.

 

[kimkats]

extending the deck space to the left of the current patio

Just think of some bar stools on the "outside" of that bar top! That would be a neat seating area. For the door over there or even if you don't take the screen that far you will want a double door there. It will make your life so much easier getting things in and out of the pool area.

4' because I feel like it would make the shallow end more useful

4' to 6' would be purrfect-less slope but deep enough to cannon ball into and play diving games from the surface (NO real diving though!)

Remind me to work on your shelf and steps tomorrow. I am wore out tonight about it hit the bed.

Kim

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Just think of some bar stools on the "outside" of that bar top! That would be a neat seating area.

I really think so! And actually I think the shade would be perfect there. Maybe wrap it around the column or even just do it on the other side and have a TV on that back wall. If we can get a talented designer to render this stuff in detail for us, I think it would really help clear that up as far as perspective. She's afraid of too much concrete not enough green, but I feel like we can accomplish that by doing a really good job on the landscaping. Currently it's just a boring green rectangle - can't get any worse than that IMHO. We'd still have the entire right side of the house about 37ft x 27ft for a swing set or something, and all the pool stuff would go on that far right side of the house (it's already set up for 240v and gas, and it would be hidden that way).

4' to 6' would be purrfect-less slope but deep enough to cannon ball into and play diving games from the surface (NO real diving though!)

That actually sounds really good to me - I feel like much more of the pool would be usable that way! My parents pool is probably 3.5' to 8' with 1/3 of the pool flat and then a huge drop off, so the entire middle of the pool was only for swimming across it. On a unique shape like this, would I do like 4' until that first hump then slope to 5' to the left and 6' kind of to the right?

Remind me to work on your shelf and steps tomorrow. I am wore out tonight about it hit the bed.

I would absolutely so appreciate that! I'd like to have a relatively solid design before getting quotes from PBs, or at least have a few options and ask them to render it for us to get a final pick. I don't even necessarily have my heart set on this particular shape, it just seems like a great use of space for the things we'd use it for - and I like the visibility of the whole pool (no spa obstruction), the bench seating, the kid/tan area being front and center, the spa being near the fire pit (those would be used in similar weather), with space for lounge chairs/umbrella on the right - just seems like a good fit so far anyway.

Look forward to your thoughts! Also, I got a notification that the thread was more than 60 days old and I probably shouldn't respond because people might not see it... should I make this into a new thread to get other voices in or should I just wait until I'm picking stuff where I need equipment experts and you can help me ask those people directly? Thanks for believing in my redemption Kim

Larger Shelf, Stairs Moved


Stairs Moved, Same Shelf

 

[kimkats]

Here is what is in my head.............sorry for the baby paint job put it at least shows what I was thinking.
Note how the shelf is bigger and the steps are smaller. I did remove the bench on that side. You have one on the other side and the spa by the fire pit.


Now remember it is okay to not like my idea. Just tell me what your thoughts are and we can go from there.

 

[kimkats]

I was looking at the above one thinking about your bench.......I came up with one. Note the pool has been increased a bit on that side. Black is shelf and bench. Purple is the steps.