Review Pool Plumbing Design

[Glitterbub]

In the first draft of pool plumbing design. I know the PB is supposed to do this, but I want to get ahead and make sure all the functionality I want is there. This is for a pool with a spa. There's a dedicated spa loop.

Functionality Required:
1. Spa heat only
2. Pool heat only
3. Spa and Pool Heat
4. Turn on/off deck jets
5. Turn on/off bubblers
6. Turn on/off pressure side vac
7. Spa to pool spillway on/off
8. Filter spa while spa in use (want to be able to replenish FC)

Three types of valves in this diagram. "|O|" is a non automated on/off valve. The two triangles are an on/off automated valve, and the three triangles are an automated three way.

Appreciate suggestions/feedback.

 

[DavidArmenB]

Why do you have a two way valve on the spa suction line when you already have a three way valve right above that which will close the spa suction line when in pool Mode?

 

[JJ_Tex]

Is that a SWCG after the heater?

Also you have 3 pumps. If you go with a robotic cleaner you can lose one of the pumps and save you some $ and arguably get a better cleaner.

 

[Glitterbub]

Why do you have a two way valve on the spa suction line when you already have a three way valve right above that which will close the spa suction line when in pool Mode?

Glad you asked because this is something I'm fuzzy on. My understanding is that automated valves only have two positions. I want to be able to suction pool only, spa only, pool and spa. My thought was to set the automated valve to both or spa only as the two options. If I wanted pool only, automation would switch to both, but the spa valve would stay closed. If I wanted spa only, automation would switch to spa, and spa valve would open. If I wanted both, automation would switch to both and spa valve would also open.

My thought on having the option to run both is that would be the default state for the pool/spa with the pump constantly running at slow speed. I could set automation to rotate between spa only and pool only, but figured this would be overall less cycles on the valves/automation.

Is that a SWCG after the heater?

Also you have 3 pumps. If you go with a robotic cleaner you can lose one of the pumps and save you some $ and arguably get a better cleaner.

Yes, couldn't get the label on there. Agree that the robot is more efficient and a better clean, but we don't have someone to take it out of the pool every day. I was going to use a pressure side cleaner that didn't need a booster but was cautioned against that. I can always add a robot later, but I can't add a pressure side cleaner without the right plumbing (even if I abandon it later).

 

[DavidArmenB]

Glad you asked because this is something I'm fuzzy on. My understanding is that automated valves only have two positions. I want to be able to suction pool only, spa only, pool and spa. My thought was to set the automated valve to both or spa only as the two options. If I wanted pool only, automation would switch to both, but the spa valve would stay closed. If I wanted spa only, automation would switch to spa, and spa valve would open. If I wanted both, automation would switch to both and spa valve would also open.

My thought on having the option to run both is that would be the default state for the pool/spa with the pump constantly running at slow speed. I could set automation to rotate between spa only and pool only, but figured this would be overall less cycles on the valves/automation.

If that is the reason, it is a legitimate reason and you can certainly set it up that way. As you said, that second valve will allow you to have an additional mode (pool and spa) in addition to the three default modes of Pool Mode, Spa Mode, and Spillover Mode (if your spa is a spillover spa).

 

[pjt]

Install a heater bypass. Main drain is optional. I'd suggest a robot instead of a pressure cleaner. Consider a three-way diverter between the pump and filter so you can vacuum to waste. Use all Jandy or Pentair diverter valves (no ball valves).

 

[Glitterbub]

Install a heater bypass. Main drain is optional. I'd suggest a robot instead of a pressure cleaner. Consider a three-way diverter between the pump and filter so you can vacuum to waste. Use all Jandy or Pentair diverter valves (no ball valves).

Suggestions incorporated. @pjt What do you mean by main drain is optional?

PB wants to use all Hayward, but is willing to put in what I want. Are the Hayward valves rebranded Jandy's? Model: PSV3S2. They're not listed on the Hayward site, but Amazon lists a 2 way and 3 way. They look very similar and not like a cheap ball valve.

 

[pjt]

What do you mean by main drain is optional?

You don't need a main drain. Removing it simplifies your plumbing, zero entrapment risk, zero plumbing leak risk, and maximum skimmer suction. I built my current pool without a main drain and I'm very happy with that decision. A main drain is like the intestinal appendix: it doesn't really do anything, has the potential to cause severe problems, and you can live just fine without it. It's optional if you want one. You have to decide if it's right for you.

Is a main pool drain necessary ?

We had our pool remodeled due to cracks in the wall/leaking. A pool within a pool was constructed. All new filtration, skimmer, pumps, bubblers, heater/chiller. Pool equipment was removed from one side of the house and new equipment/plumbing installed on the opposite side. We began filling...

www.troublefreepool.com

PB wants to use all Hayward, but is willing to put in what I want.

In that case, I would suggest Jandy Never Lube valves:

Never Lube Jandy Valve: Jandy Pro Series Valve | Jandy

Looking for a Never Lube Jandy Valve? Find this Jandy Pro Series Valve for the Perfect Pool Experience. Buy Now w/ a Pool Pro Near You!

www.jandy.com

 

[BMerrill]

1. Go with the Hayward OmniLogic Panel, run 100 amps to the panel. Add a boltshield surge protector in the lower right slot.
2. For value actuators, suggest the Pentair Intellivalve. Very easy to setup, finetune, manually use and work with the Omni. You are correct, actuators presently only have 2 stop positions. With todays technology, its disappointing actuators are still more like a light switch than a multiple position regulator.
3. The Omnilogic HLBASE comes with spots to operate 4 valves. You will need the addon HLIOEXPAND board to add 4 more.
4. Salt cell for 40,000 gallon pool.
5. I have the Tristar 950, IMO it is a very good pump. After the pump and before the filter add a Flowvis flow meter and temp sensor (2 included with the Omni).
6. Filter; increase the size to the C5030, only a few $100 more for more filter area = more time between cleanings.
7. Use the Hayward Colorlogic 320 lights. These lights work the best with the Omni.
8. Hayward also have a new transformer with 4 zones. All lights you want to work together have to be on the same zone or if using individual transformers, on the same transformer.
9. Lights should face away from the house or the area where most people will gather.
10. Do you want deck jets with lights? aka Laminars.
11. Eliminate the vacuum and get a robot.
12. Heater bypass before the heater with 3 way valve (Auto); out from the heater comes the check valve, replace the valve with a tee, then the SWCG.
13. After the SWG add a 3 way valve (Auto) see attached. One side is for pool returns and water features, the other spa returns. The OmniLogic has a pool mode and spa mode; will work better if split this way.
14. Pool/features side: Split the water features from the pool returns with a 3 way valve (Auto).
    • Pool Returns: Install a 3 way valve (manual), suggest only running 2 lines to the pool, one to each side of the pool. Tee the lines at the pool between the returns.
15. Water Features: Install a 3 way valve (Auto) one side to the bubblers, other to the deck jets. Depending on water flow/pressure requirements, you may/ may not be able to run both features at the same time. This setup assumes you will not be able to.
    • Bubblers: With 2 bubblers a single pipe can be run to the bubblers and split with a tee centered on the bubblers and have no issue with balanced water flow. More than 2, it becomes a creative task, but can be done without using valves.
    • Deck jets: Balancing water flow requires a valve for each deck jet. I have 4 laminars and chose to to run one 2" line to an irrigation rectangle valve box in a flower bed /lawn. Has a 4 way manifold with 4 pvc ball valves, one to each jet. Box is about 25 feet from the first laminar and 55 feet to the last one.

 

[Glitterbub]

1. Go with the Hayward OmniLogic Panel, run 100 amps to the panel. Add a boltshield surge protector in the lower right slot.
2. For value actuators, suggest the Pentair Intellivalve. Very easy to setup, finetune, manually use and work with the Omni. You are correct, actuators presently only have 2 stop positions. With todays technology, its disappointing actuators are still more like a light switch than a multiple position regulator.
3. The Omnilogic HLBASE comes with spots to operate 4 valves. You will need the addon HLIOEXPAND board to add 4 more.
4. Salt cell for 40,000 gallon pool.
5. I have the Tristar 950, IMO it is a very good pump. After the pump and before the filter add a Flowvis flow meter and temp sensor (2 included with the Omni).
6. Filter; increase the size to the C5030, only a few $100 more for more filter area = more time between cleanings.
7. Use the Hayward Colorlogic 320 lights. These lights work the best with the Omni.
8. Hayward also have a new transformer with 4 zones. All lights you want to work together have to be on the same zone or if using individual transformers, on the same transformer.
9. Lights should face away from the house or the area where most people will gather.
10. Do you want deck jets with lights? aka Laminars.
11. Eliminate the vacuum and get a robot.
12. Heater bypass before the heater with 3 way valve (Auto); out from the heater comes the check valve, replace the valve with a tee, then the SWCG.
13. After the SWG add a 3 way valve (Auto) see attached. One side is for pool returns and water features, the other spa returns. The OmniLogic has a pool mode and spa mode; will work better if split this way.
14. Pool/features side: Split the water features from the pool returns with a 3 way valve (Auto).
    • Pool Returns: Install a 3 way valve (manual), suggest only running 2 lines to the pool, one to each side of the pool. Tee the lines at the pool between the returns.
15. Water Features: Install a 3 way valve (Auto) one side to the bubblers, other to the deck jets. Depending on water flow/pressure requirements, you may/ may not be able to run both features at the same time. This setup assumes you will not be able to.
    • Bubblers: With 2 bubblers a single pipe can be run to the bubblers and split with a tee centered on the bubblers and have no issue with balanced water flow. More than 2, it becomes a creative task, but can be done without using valves.
    • Deck jets: Balancing water flow requires a valve for each deck jet. I have 4 laminars and chose to to run one 2" line to an irrigation rectangle valve box in a flower bed /lawn. Has a 4 way manifold with 4 pvc ball valves, one to each jet. Box is about 25 feet from the first laminar and 55 feet to the last one.

2: I'm seeing Hayward at $196 vs. Pentair at $269. Is the Pentair worth that much more?
3: Thanks
4: Spec'd
5: Thanks
6: What's the practical difference here. Are we talking about once a year vs. once every nine months?
7: That's what is spec'd, but concerned about long term durability.
9: Spec'd
10: No. They look cool but I've heard they are not durable and are expensive to replace.
12: I think I did this in V2, but will check out the file.
13: Is there somewhere I can learn more about the native way the app works? This is good info. Will it be able to have all of the functionality I'm looking for?
15: Want to be able to run both at the same time.

 

[BMerrill]

2: I'm seeing Hayward at $196 vs. Pentair at $269. Is the Pentair worth that much more?
IMO yes, the Intellvalve is worth the difference and is available online for less than $269.

13: Is there somewhere I can learn more about the native way the app works? This is good info. Will it be able to have all of the functionality I'm looking for?
Link to the Omnilogic to get the manuals. All setup is done at the panel. In the app you can turn on/off everything, change pump speed, chlorinator output, select light shows, set schedules, check diagnostics, etc. There is a phone app and a desktop app. Create your account in the desktop app.

 

[Glitterbub]

1. Go with the Hayward OmniLogic Panel, run 100 amps to the panel. Add a boltshield surge protector in the lower right slot.
2. Heater bypass before the heater with 3 way valve (Auto); out from the heater comes the check valve, replace the valve with a tee, then the SWCG.
3. After the SWG add a 3 way valve (Auto) see attached. One side is for pool returns and water features, the other spa returns. The OmniLogic has a pool mode and spa mode; will work better if split this way.
4. Pool/features side: Split the water features from the pool returns with a 3 way valve (Auto).
   • Pool Returns: Install a 3 way valve (manual), suggest only running 2 lines to the pool, one to each side of the pool. Tee the lines at the pool between the returns.
5. Water Features: Install a 3 way valve (Auto) one side to the bubblers, other to the deck jets. Depending on water flow/pressure requirements, you may/ may not be able to run both features at the same time. This setup assumes you will not be able to.

@BMerrill
1: Any specific reason for the boltshield vs. other similar products? I think the panel takes BR breakers and Culter Hammer has a similar product.
2: Why put the bypass on auto? Figure I would rarely use the bypass. Trying to save an auto valve because of the overall limit on the number of automated valves.
3: If I do this, will I be able to run the returns in the spa and the pool at the same time? I wanted that to be the default state of the pool.
3/4: What's the benefit of doing this vs. having a manifold that feeds all pool returns and features with two way valves that open/close depending on what I need?
5: 4 deck jets at 5 GPM each. One bubbler that I think can go up to 30 GPM

Getting to the final stages of design. We've been through multiple iterations as the design has changed.

"Plumbing PB" is the PB's suggested design. "Plumbing Owner" is my draft based on prior and pending feedback from here.

Usage info:
On on every day basis, I want to have the pool and spa have a constant flow of sanitized water. Is this possible or do I risk draining the spa?

We would regularly keep the bubbler on.

We would run the spillover when we were in the yard or for guests. This is both to control pH and limit scaling on the side of the spa.

Deck jets will be used for when guests are here. They will probably be our least used feature.

When the pool temp is too high in the summer we will run the bubbler, deck jets, and spillover to attempt to decrease temp.

The PB is suggesting a feature pump to ensure we have good flow over the spillover. He initially suggested this when we had more of sunken in inifinity spa, but now we're back to more of a raised spa with a corner spillover. Probably 2ft wide spillover total. The PB's design has a dedicated line from the pump to the spa for the spillover. My design uses the pool return jets.

The main place where our design differs is he plans to run the spa jets off of the 2.7 VSP pump. The second pump would feed the deck jets and spillover. My design has all of the features off of the main pump and a dedicated pump for spa jets. With at max 50 GPM for the features, 20 of which will be rarely used (and not 100% sure of the bubbler GPM), I don't know that it makes sense to dedicate a pump for just features. This way I can run one pump on a regular basis vs two.

If I look at the Hayward design in the user manual my design closely matches what's in the manual if I take off the items I don't have. One thing I see is that there's a 3 way valve that allows you to pull from the pool or the spa for the spa pump. Does anyone know why that's needed?

Some distance info- Distance to spa is about 60 feet plus 4 90's.

Opinions appreciated.

 

[Glitterbub]

Forgot to add- pool will have 2.5" suction and 2" returns. Likely 2.5" return on spa.

 

[mas985]

How many spa jets are you planning and what is the flow rate requirement for each? That will determine the pipe size to use for the spa jets.

 

[Glitterbub]

How many spa jets are you planning and what is the flow rate requirement for each? That will determine the pipe size to use for the spa jets.

I was afraid someone would ask. It's an 8x8 spa for 6 or 8 people. PB has said we would have 8 jets. I expect these to be basic jets. Don't have details beyond that. I've started to explore therapeutic jets for two (owners) of the seats. Possibly something from the jetarray system. If we can't support the clusters, then the inline.

I doubt we will host many parties where the spa is packed with adults. This will mostly be for the two owners and kids.

 

[mas985]

The most common jet is 3/8" and requires 15 GPM per jet. So 8 would require 120 GPM and I would not go with less than 3" suction/return lines.

If they are 25 GPM jets, then you would need two loops and two jet pumps.

 

[mas985]

Also, I would skip the pressure side cleaner and go with a robotic. Much more efficient.

 

[Glitterbub]

The most common jet is 3/8" and requires 15 GPM per jet. So 8 would require 120 GPM and I would not go with less than 3" suction/return lines.

If they are 25 GPM jets, then you would need two loops and two jet pumps.

He's looking at a 1.8 VS Pump from Hayward. I believe it's the 900 model. Given the length of pipe to the spa, what's the max GPM I can expect out of that pump for this application?

I'm able to follow the chart on hydraulics 101, until the 33+5 head calc. I thought it would be 37+5 or 38 total. Not sure where the 33 came from.

Also, I would skip the pressure side cleaner and go with a robotic. Much more efficient.

Hearing this a lot, but we're not able to put it in/take it out every day.

 

[mas985]

He's looking at a 1.8 VS Pump from Hayward. I believe it's the 900 model. Given the length of pipe to the spa, what's the max GPM I can expect out of that pump for this application?

Do you have an exact model #? I don't want to mislead you.

I'm able to follow the chart on hydraulics 101, until the 33+5 head calc. I thought it would be 37+5 or 38 total. Not sure where the 33 came from.

I changed the head loss model for the jets and updated the chart but not the text. I will fix that. Thanks.

Hearing this a lot, but we're not able to put it in/take it out every day.

No need to. I hardly ever take my robot out the pool. Going on 7 years now. Not necessary IMHO.

 

[Glitterbub]

Do you have an exact model #? I don't want to mislead you.


I changed the head loss model for the jets and updated the chart but not the text. I will fix that. Thanks.


No need to. I hardly ever take my robot out the pool. Going on 7 years now. Not necessary IMHO.

I think it's the SP32900VSP. Do you know anyone who has used the XL series? They "commercial," but not sure of the increase in cost.