Replacing all equipment and above-ground pipe. Advice very welcome

[snuggles]

I have just purchased a house with a beautifully replastered 30k in-ground pool in New England. The equipment is VERY old, the piping is patched to heck, and the pad is digusting. Also, the existing DE filter has started spewing de into the pool, and having replaced the manifold and grids, I gave up on it--too much hassle just opening it up. The multiport feels like it's about to give way and the pump is a single speed.

Overall, time time just start over.

There are 2" stubs out of the ground for the skimmers/returns, and a couple of 1 1/2 inch stubs for ?? I'm guessing old main drain and possibly a suction port that both appear to be plugged in the pool. (I got literally zero info from previous owners).




I have purchased

Pentair EC-342001 SuperFlo VS
Pentair EC-188594 Quad D.E.
FV-C Control FlowVis

those are on the way for next week.

I have some jandy valves and pvc fittings, and would love some feedback on my planned pumbing of the new stuff. Based on some feedback on this an other sites, I elected to not use a multiport, as I'm the kind of guy that doesn't mind opening up the tank when things need to get cleaned, and I'm going to plumb in a way to skip the filter if that is needed, using the three way valves:



My questions:

1. In the current plumbing, what the heck is that flex pipe that goes from after the pump to after the filter? Is that some kind of balance or... I dunno. I'm assuming it helps in priming or preventing airlocks or something, but I'm unclear on if I need it in my new design...

2. With the new design, for winterizing, I have shut offs before two full-size 2" plugs, then down into the ground--I think that provides what is needed on that end, but unclear to me if I need some kind of blow outs on the equipment side. Can I just open the drain on the filter and pump and gtg? Or should I cut in some inline blowouts or stub onto something somewhere. I am COMPLETELY NEW to pools, and have never opened or closed a pool.

3. For cleanout/troubleshooting I normally put cleanouts at as many turns as I can eg


But unclear on if that is something that is done in pool plumbing? Particularly for the vertical pipe stubs to/from the pool, is it worth putting the cleanout/blowouts "in line" with the actual pipe?

3. There are unions built in to the pump and filter. Should I add them around the flowvis? anywhere else? They are expensive, but I'm happy to add them wherever needed now vs struggle later...

4. The flowvis is also a checkvalve. It's unclear to me WHY it is a checkvalve or where I or even if I need a checkvalve. I don't have one in my current system, so I'm just wondering if having one is going to cause issues priming or winterizing or whatever, and if it's worth having this thing if it will cause headaches. I got it because some guy on youtube says he always puts them in, which, yeah, maybe not the best way to decide something. tldr: should I have a check valve. If so, is this the best spot. If not, is there a flowmeter recommended that is not also a checkvalve.

5. I plan on installing a swg later. Leaving space for it between filter and return line shut off. I feel I might as well add the T and jandy 3 way now (I ordered the valve, it's on the way but that's why I don't have a picture with it and you see this ham-handed text--hopefully you get the picture). Just wanted to confirm that my instinct to put the 3 way on the "main" line is correct. If you can picture it, I -could- put the T and the jandy reversed, but something about that arrangement I don't like. I like having the valves in line on the main line from filter.

EDIT, duuhh. Forgot the picture


6. Any advice on supports for the piping. I have used clevis hangers bolted into the ground to hold up pvc piping before, so I'm tempted to do the same here, but I'm not sure if there is a more typical way of supporting the pipes...

I'm sure I'll think of other questions, but mostly hoping to get some feedback on this and any suggestions on stuff that's worth adding now or re-routing.

Thank you!!

 

[snuggles]

Edit: reviewing the different sections of this forum, I kind of think I put this in the incorrect one. If there is some way to move this post to the Pumps, Filters, and Plumbing section?

I'm guessing no, but before I simply re-create this post there and delete it here, just curious.

Thank you!

 

[ajw22]

Edit: reviewing the different sections of this forum, I kind of think I put this in the incorrect one. If there is some way to move this post to the Pumps, Filters, and Plumbing section?

I'm guessing no, but before I simply re-create this post there and delete it here, just curious.

Thank you!

This thread fits in Under Construction fine.

 

[ajw22]

I have purchased

Pentair EC-342001 SuperFlo VS
Pentair EC-188594 Quad D.E.
FV-C Control FlowVis

You should be getting a Pentair CCP cartridge filter if you do not want an MPV on your DE filter and plan to just open it for cleaning.

The Superflo VS pump has been discontinued. You should be getting the Superflow VST pump.

SuperFlo® VS Variable Speed Pump

The SuperFlo VS Variable Speed Pumps bring the energy cost savings of variable speed technology to pools at an affordable price. Browse products here.

www.pentair.com

1. In the current plumbing, what the heck is that flex pipe that goes from after the pump to after the filter? Is that some kind of balance or... I dunno. I'm assuming it helps in priming or preventing airlocks or something, but I'm unclear on if I need it in my new design...

The prior owners had a pool cleaner boost pump or a tablet chlorinator or some other device connected to the flex pipe. When the device was removed they just connected the pipe together.

You do not need it.

2. With the new design, for winterizing, I have shut offs before two full-size 2" plugs, then down into the ground--I think that provides what is needed on that end, but unclear to me if I need some kind of blow outs on the equipment side. Can I just open the drain on the filter and pump and gtg? Or should I cut in some inline blowouts or stub onto something somewhere. I am COMPLETELY NEW to pools, and have never opened or closed a pool.

The diverter valves need to be after the blow outs so that you can blow into the pipe and air lock the line.

Pumps, filter, and heaters al have drain plugs for winterization.

I suggest you read Closing Pool for Winter - Further Reading and form your blow out plan.

3. For cleanout/troubleshooting I normally put cleanouts at as many turns as I can eg


But unclear on if that is something that is done in pool plumbing? Particularly for the vertical pipe stubs to/from the pool, is it worth putting the cleanout/blowouts "in line" with the actual pipe?

That is not necessary. You should have unions at the pump and filter to disconnect portions of the plumbing if needed.

3. There are unions built in to the pump and filter. Should I add them around the flowvis? anywhere else? They are expensive, but I'm happy to add them wherever needed now vs struggle later...

You do not need unions around the Flowvis. You do not need the Flowvis at all unless you just like gadgets.

The Superflo VS pump does not come with unions. Use CMP High Temp unions with the Superflo VS pump...

High-Temp Union - CMP

www.c-m-p.com

4. The flowvis is also a checkvalve. It's unclear to me WHY it is a checkvalve or where I or even if I need a checkvalve. I don't have one in my current system, so I'm just wondering if having one is going to cause issues priming or winterizing or whatever, and if it's worth having this thing if it will cause headaches. I got it because some guy on youtube says he always puts them in, which, yeah, maybe not the best way to decide something. tldr: should I have a check valve. If so, is this the best spot. If not, is there a flowmeter recommended that is not also a checkvalve.

You do not need it. You have no flow dependent equipment.

5. I plan on installing a swg later. Leaving space for it between filter and return line shut off. I feel I might as well add the T and jandy 3 way now (I ordered the valve, it's on the way but that's why I don't have a picture with it and you see this ham-handed text--hopefully you get the picture). Just wanted to confirm that my instinct to put the 3 way on the "main" line is correct. If you can picture it, I -could- put the T and the jandy reversed, but something about that arrangement I don't like. I like having the valves in line on the main line from filter.

There is no need for a T and 3-way valve around the SWG cell. Just leave about 20 inches of straight pipe where you can cut in a SWG cell and flow switch between the filter and return.

How will you be chlorinating your pool until you install the SWG?

6. Any advice on supports for the piping. I have used clevis hangers bolted into the ground to hold up pvc piping before, so I'm tempted to do the same here, but I'm not sure if there is a more typical way of supporting the pipes...

Cut a T in half to create a chair that an elevated pipe can rest in and use a PVC from the T to the ground to support it.

 

[snuggles]

You should be getting a Pentair CCP cartridge filter if you do not want an MPV on your DE filter and plan to just open it for cleaning.

Ok, yeah I was going to get the multiport, but because my own has failed and my own preference is for as simple as possible, I was swayed by this youtube from 2017 that it would be ok to skip the multiport and in fact maybe preferable



This is not at all to argue the point. I have ordered the multiport, and I appreciate your advice here. I like the idea of DE vs plain carts, so hopefully it all works out well.

The Superflo VS pump has been discontinued. You should be getting the Superflow VST pump.

Arrggg. I totally missed that. It looks like it's a little difficult to locate the ec-342002 (the new one) online, or at least I'm having trouble. I'll hold onto the pump I ordered while I poke around and try to locate the new version. I have 30 days to return it unused, so shouldn't be an issue. That said, I am not wedded to Pentair, so this will give me some time to consider which pump I actually want. The good thing is that I can swap out the filter immediately and hold onto the existing pump while I mull it.

The prior owners had a pool cleaner boost pump or a tablet chlorinator or some other device connected to the flex pipe. When the device was removed they just connected the pipe together.

You do not need it.

Makes sense. ty

The diverter valves need to be after the blow outs so that you can blow into the pipe and air lock the line.

ok, I missed that pinned post. I read it quickly and will re-read plus really dive into the existing docs. I actually have been meaning to support this site for a while, so this is reminding me how valuable it all is...

Pumps, filter, and heaters al have drain plugs for winterization.

I suggest you read Closing Pool for Winter - Further Reading and form your blow out plan.

I am in the process of reading, but from what I see so far, it seems like there is no need for anything after the shut offs before they go into the ground (to the pool). I will need at least one place to hook up the air pump on the *equipment side*. It seems like one simple solution to this is to connect my compressor to the waste port of my pump, then set the multiport to "recirc", then shut off the return port and blow out the skimmers. plug them and then shut the valve. Then turn on the return valve and do the same--plug and shut of *that* valve. Then just disconnect the pump and let everything else drain out the drain ports... But I know I need to re-read the pinned posts, just thinking about the simplest possible plumbing solution with the least amount of things that could break, haha.

You do not need unions around the Flowvis. You do not need the Flowvis at all unless you just like gadgets.

Got it. I just saw that youtube above and copied it. Silly of me.

The Superflo VS pump does not come with unions. Use CMP High Temp unions with the Superflo VS pump...

You know, the pump I ordered on amazon (Pentair EC-342001 SuperFlo VS on Amazon) shows unions in the picture, so I guess we'll see what it comes with. I guess it's likely I'll return it and it's good that I just assume I'll need to get those unions no matter what.

You do not need it. You have no flow dependent equipment.

Got it. I just like gadgets, but yeah, will skip it.

There is no need for a T and 3-way valve around the SWG cell. Just leave about 20 inches of straight pipe where you can cut in a SWG cell and flow switch between the filter and return.

Ok, so I do need to do my research on the SWG, but I assumed always good to be able to skip a part of your system if it's malfunctioning or something. Is that just not needed or am I way overcomplicating this?

How will you be chlorinating your pool until you install the SWG?

I have been using liquid chlorine and it's been fine if expensive. My local pool "pros" sold me trichlor tablets which I used for about 6 weeks before finding this site. My CYA is 100, and I'm just limping along with that until I can find the time to get a 10k tank out to do a partial exchange. I think I'll need 2 truckloads to get it under 50, but I'll do 1 and see...

Cut a T in half to create a chair that an elevated pipe can rest in and use a PVC from the T to the ground to support it.

This is a very nice idea that I will definitely do--thanks!!

Thank you again. I realize I didn't do all the work I should have before ordering and posting, so I appreciate your patience and thoughtful advice!

 

[ajw22]

Arrggg. I totally missed that. It looks like it's a little difficult to locate the ec-342002 (the new one) online, or at least I'm having trouble.

It looks like an EC-342002 does not exist.

Pentair wants you to buy the Superflo VST from a dealer while allow the old model to be sold through eCommerce as an EC model. All part of the channel games equipment manufacters are playing.

That said, I am not wedded to Pentair, so this will give me some time to consider which pump I actually want. The good thing is that I can swap out the filter immediately and hold onto the existing pump while I mull it.

Jandy and Hayward do not sell better pumps via eCommerce and are not friendler to DIY then Pentair.

Frankly for the pump which is the heart of a pool system I suck up the cost and pay the dealer tax to get the best one. The pump is not the place to scrimp. Buy the Superflo VST from a local Pentair dealer.

I am in the process of reading, but from what I see so far, it seems like there is no need for anything after the shut offs before they go into the ground (to the pool). I will need at least one place to hook up the air pump on the *equipment side*. It seems like one simple solution to this is to connect my compressor to the waste port of my pump, then set the multiport to "recirc", then shut off the return port and blow out the skimmers. plug them and then shut the valve. Then turn on the return valve and do the same--plug and shut of *that* valve. Then just disconnect the pump and let everything else drain out the drain ports... But I know I need to re-read the pinned posts, just thinking about the simplest possible plumbing solution with the least amount of things that could break, haha.

While some folks manage to use a compressor for closing the best tool is a Cyclone Blower. For blowing out water you want air volume and not pressure. A compressor gives you pressure while a Cyclone blower is a beast with air volume.

When you install the SWG the SWG union makes it easy to remove the cell and blow out the returns from that open pipe.

Then you blow out the skimmers from the pump intake.

Ok, so I do need to do my research on the SWG, but I assumed always good to be able to skip a part of your system if it's malfunctioning or something. Is that just not needed or am I way overcomplicating this?

When the SWG malfunctions it just dies a silent death. Water can still circulate through it.

Pentair sells a dummy cell that you can keep on hand to drop in if you ever need to remove the cell. The cost is less then what you would spend on the valves for your bypass.

Amazon.com

I have been using liquid chlorine and it's been fine if expensive. My local pool "pros" sold me trichlor tablets which I used for about 6 weeks before finding this site. My CYA is 100, and I'm just limping along with that until I can find the time to get a 10k tank out to do a partial exchange. I think I'll need 2 truckloads to get it under 50, but I'll do 1 and see...

I think you should put in the SWG as soon as you can. You will appreciate it once you experience it. Why put off a good thing?

 

[snuggles]

Buy the Superflo VST from a local Pentair dealer.

I will do it! I will do my research on this site, but is it typical that a dealer will sell you the pump and let you install it? My intent is to get the warrantee, but if that requires a dealer install, I may put it off just until I can figure out a better dealer that I trust more than the guys I've been using (whom I suspect were the ones that broke the filter in the first place, or at least were aware that it was broken and did not flag it to me).

Then you blow out the skimmers from the pump intake.

Got it, I disconnect the pump and the swg and fit the cyclone to those unions.

Pentair sells a dummy cell that you can keep on hand to drop in if you ever need to remove the cell. The cost is less then what you would spend on the valves for your bypass.

I had noticed this and forgot. Ty.

I think you should put in the SWG as soon as you can.

Definitely! Just still mulling the brands. If I end up with pentair VST I'll do pentair. Feels like something I should know the exact pump first and base my SWG on that... right?

Thanks!!

 

[ajw22]

I will do it! I will do my research on this site, but is it typical that a dealer will sell you the pump and let you install it? My intent is to get the warrantee, but if that requires a dealer install, I may put it off just until I can figure out a better dealer that I trust more than the guys I've been using (whom I suspect were the ones that broke the filter in the first place, or at least were aware that it was broken and did not flag it to me).

If you install the Pentair pump you get a 60 day warranty from Pentair.

Dealer prices usually include installation. I don't think they will sell you a pump at a different price for you to install.

Got it, I disconnect the pump and the swg and fit the cyclone to those unions.

You don't even need to disconnect the pump. Open up the pump lid and put the Cyclone hose into the suction side pipe.

Definitely! Just still mulling the brands. If I end up with pentair VST I'll do pentair. Feels like something I should know the exact pump first and base my SWG on that... right?

Only if you plan on adding automation in the future.

 

[snuggles]

Actually, I have another question that is related but not exactly the same. Not sure if this should be its own thread...

I am going to put in new jandy valves on supply and return side. Couple of questions/issues

1. I suspect that both sides are below the water line. I'd like to stop the water while I glue the new valves. Is there a best/easiest way to do this temporarily? I was considering sticking a winterizing plug in on the pool side--one in each skimmer and return jet (removing the directional thingys first)


and then just cut the pipes. Water would flow out but eventually stop, and I could dry the pipe, then glue in the valves. Is this the best way? Lmk if there is another/better method, but this seems simplest...

2. The jandy valves have an "in" and "out" side. Looking at the internals, the mechanism that swivels has seals that appear to compress against the body of the valve if you orient that bit AWAY from the pressure. That -usually- would mean that you orient the valve so that the "in" side would be where the flow of water comes -from-, and that would make the seal mechanisms orient against the "out" side of the body--creating pressure against the back of that plate and pressing the seals against the body. On the supply/skimmer side I will do that. But on the return side, it occurs to me that the only time I'm going to be shutting these off is when I want to drain the *equipment* side. That will involve blowing out the pool side and trapping air in there. That is: the pressure will be *coming from the pool* on *both supply and return*. What I think that means is that I want to orient the jandy valve to have the "in" side towards the pool on both sides. Does that make sense? I'm used to ball valves where the orientation doesn't matter, but with these I suspect you want to get it right...

3. I am considering gluing the Jandy valve on the return side vertically, just to give a little clearance from the pad. Any thoughts on if it matters and/or concerns about airlocks if I go up and then have to come back down to meet up with my horizontal run from the filter? The idea is that I'd put the 90 in above it--basically replacing the rubber coupling (lol, what the heck) with the valve and putting a new 90 (or maybe another T with a cleanout?) above. OR I could top the vertical stub with a 90 (or T with cleanout) and put the jandy after that in a horizontal orientation.

I know this is super nit-picky, but I am curious if there is any advantage to either. Can't really think of one either way, but you never know.



4. Here are the glues I intend to use for the job. I ordered p68 and p70 because I -thought- p68 was clear and p70 was purple, but they are both purple. One is labeled industrial and one is not. Any suggestions on which to use for which application is welcome. I also have regular PVC cement, since I really just need the weld-on for the cpvc joints. My impression is that it's all basically overkill if you are careful and give time to dry overnight, but I still am curious how these products differ since I have already paid for them.

 

[ajw22]

Yes, plug the skimmer and return pipes you will be cutting.

Diverter valves do not have an in and out side to the ports in the base. You can remove the screws and the top and diverter paddle, which you should do anyway before gluing, and orient the top for whatever flow you have.

The upper loop you describe can effect the flow when you run a VS pump at low RPMs. I would try not to create that type of loop.

P-70 is specially recommended for use on Schedule 80 (PN 10 and higher) and large size pipe. Excellent for cold weather applications.

Weld-On® P-68 Primer - Weld-On

Weld-On® P-68 PRIMER™ is a code compliant, THF-free primer with 30% lower solvent emission rate and significantly reduced odorous fumes than the current products in the market–resulting in an improved workplace environment for pipe installers. The P-68 PRIMER is a clear or purple, ultra low VOC...

weldon.com

Weld-On® P-70™ - Weld-On

Premium, industrial strength, low VOC primer essential for proper softening and preparation of PVC and CPVC pipe and fitting surfaces. Specially recommended for use on Schedule 80 (PN 10 and higher) and large size pipe. Excellent for cold weather applications. Handle with care, will stain most...

weldon.com